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NHLPA fires Paul Kelly (UPD: player review of firing completed)

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Old
09-15-2009, 03:26 PM
  #376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Major4Boarding View Post
You know, I said to myself I wasn't going to debate you any further on this matter, as it appears your bias regarding this situation is quite evident. That you have no intention of being open minded.

But these nuggets you've pain-stakenly bestowed upon us I just can't ignore.



Ok... In reference to Buzz Hargrove - so questionable practices and integrity, who you've associated with (Dionisio), and being a hypocrite shouldn't have any bearing in an environment (PA) that's already fragile and on shaky ground? Or did you not find anything to answer your question because I didn't specifically mention Lindros?



It appears now that Buzz can do no wrong in your eyes either. That any of us questioning Buzz Hargrove's endeavours you can scoff at simply because of the "guys sitting in Windsor"? Many of us here do not feel that Kelly got a "fair shake" with his dismissal. Hargrove says what Kelly did (the minutes) was a fireable offense. Hargrove says Dionisio didn't get "a fair shake".

So let's see, in Buzz's World... Kelly + obtaining minutes from player only meeting = "fireable offense".

Dionisio + his own confession of spying on his constituents + judgement against him that he knew there were forged contracts within his Local = "... a major insult. As a Canadian trade Unionist, that really bothered me. I have a great deal of respect for him as a trade Unionist and as a human being and a great deal of respect for his integrity. I don't think he got a fair shake (before the Labor Relations Board)."

Did you even bother to read the Keller Report? Or is that because Hargrove wasn't directly involved or mentioned in said report it has no pertinence to you? Or it's ok to pull the ethics, credibility, and integrity cards when they best suit you? Or simply because Hargrove and Lindros are "pals".
You also left out the most interesting judgment of Hargrove - by his fellow labour leaders and the political party that is supported by labour - the NDP.

The CAW was criticized for the manner in which it raided other unions and the difficulties it caused with the Canadian Labour Congress.

The NDP was so incensed by Hargrove's political antics in jumping into bed with federal and provincial Liberals that they revoked his NDP party membership.

The Best of Buzz:

June 1999
With the Conservative Mike Harris government in power in Ontario and going to the polls, Hargrove made his first public foray into the field of strategic or tactical voting. Until then, the CAW and its predecessor had always been a staunch political and financial supporter of the NDP. But in the 1999 Ontario election, Hargrove urged his supporters to vote for whatever candidate, Liberal or NDP, would have the best chance of defeating the Conservative.

As a tactic, it didn't work. The Conservatives were re-elected with a second majority. It was also the first time the CAW did not formally endorse the NDP in an election and contributed to increasingly bitter relations between the party and the union.


Nov. 1, 1999
Hargrove announces that the Canadian Auto Workers union will endorse the Onex takeover and restructuring bid for Air Canada and Canadian Airlines. The union represented 10,000 workers at both airlines and many Air Canada workers saw the endorsement as a betrayal. The Onex bid by financier Gerry Schwartz would fall apart four days later.


Dec. 2, 2005
In another foray into the area of tactical voting, Hargrove urges members of the CAW to vote Liberal in the 2006 federal election in ridings in which the NDP has no chance of winning. "We're saying to people don't waste your vote. Make sure we don't send any more Tories to Ottawa. We don't need them." Appearing at one point with then Liberal prime minister Paul Martin, Hargrove added that the minority Liberal government "deserves to go back to Ottawa with even bigger numbers."

Jan. 18, 2006
After a campaign speech by Liberal Leader Paul Martin, Hargrove says having a strong Bloc Québécois caucus in opposition would be better for national unity than a Conservative caucus in power. He adds that Stephen Harper's "view of the country is a separatist view."

Feb. 12, 2006
The executive of the New Democratic Party's Ontario wing votes to revoke Hargrove's party membership after he endorses certain Liberal candidates in the federal election.

April 24, 2006
The Canadian Auto Workers council votes to break ties with the New Democratic Party, following a decision by the party's Ontario wing in February to revoke Hargrove's membership.


That is good old Buzz making friends wherever he goes.


Last edited by Wetcoaster: 09-15-2009 at 03:33 PM.
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Old
09-15-2009, 03:33 PM
  #377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
You also left out the most interesting judgment of Hargrove - by his fellow labour leaders and the political party that is supported by labour - the NDP.

The CAW was criticized for the manner in which it raided other unions and the difficulties it caused with the Canadian Labour Congress.

The NDP was so incensed by Hargrove's political antics in jumping into bed with federal and provincial Liberals that they revoked his NDP party membership.
Indeed I did, my apologies. I went with the 1 inch paintbrush as opposed to the 4 inch. Figured what you posted above was even more common knowledge than my Dionisio/Hargrove ties, which shocked me more when doing the research.

I also did not want to upset the guys sitting in Windsor, Ontario.

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09-15-2009, 09:37 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
I'm not going to go into depth about Lindros or Hargrove because each could take up a 40 page thread of their own. If it's your opinion that these are upstanding, fair-minded individuals, you're entitled to it. But at least concede that they don't have a good reputation.
Once again, if Lindros "doesn't have a good reputation" it's because people are unable to separate his playing career from the person. As for Hargrove, he certainly managed to bring tremendous wealth to a lot of people who should probably be working for $12 an hour.

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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
You seem to think that PR doesn't matter at all. All I can say to you is that if the union had won the PR war last time around, the players wouldn't be playing under a salary cap right now.I never said that bad publicity forced the players back to the table. I said that the owners having most of the media and the fans on side allowed them to stay away indefinitely. This is extremely basic, and clearly something that the Goodenowe regime did not understand until it was way too late in the game.
You can say that if you want to. And I can say to you that you are wrong. I like how you call it "extremely basic" as though labelling it as such somehow makes it fact.

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I'd be willing to bet that I have a lot more business knowledge than you do.
lol, Yes, I'm sure you do.

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09-15-2009, 09:56 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by Major4Boarding View Post
You know, I said to myself I wasn't going to debate you any further on this matter, as it appears your bias regarding this situation is quite evident. That you have no intention of being open minded.
And by "being open minded" you clearly mean "seeing things my way".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Major4Boarding View Post
Ok... In reference to Buzz Hargrove - so questionable practices and integrity, who you've associated with (Dionisio), and being a hypocrite shouldn't have any bearing in an environment (PA) that's already fragile and on shaky ground? Or did you not find anything to answer your question because I didn't specifically mention Lindros?

It appears now that Buzz can do no wrong in your eyes either.
I'm sure he could do plenty wrong - I just haven't heard anything convincing as to why he's bad for the interim position of NHLPA ombudsman. Now I'll brace for a rush of "but but but he ruined the auto industry!!!! Everyone knwos that lolzzzzzz"

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Originally Posted by Major4Boarding View Post
Were you being smirky, or joking when you posted that? Or is there some sort of relationship you guys have? Nothing wrong with that or saying that's a bad thing, just that it would go a long way in explaining your stance here if that were indeed the case.
Not sure what it has to do with anything, but it's called sarcasm. So long as you're doing research, maybe you should try looking that one up.

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09-15-2009, 10:02 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by Major4Boarding View Post
Indeed I did, my apologies. I went with the 1 inch paintbrush as opposed to the 4 inch. Figured what you posted above was even more common knowledge than my Dionisio/Hargrove ties, which shocked me more when doing the research.

I also did not want to upset the guys sitting in Windsor, Ontario.
Yes, you guys are right - Buzz Hargrove did nothing but horrible things for the CAW. No wonder he was fired.

What's that? He WASN'T fired!?!? He RETIRED from the job last year and handpicked his replacement? Well clearly he used trickery. Trickery and magic.

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09-15-2009, 10:05 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by GSC2k2 View Post
Outrageous strawmen don't add much to the discussion.
I thought the same thing when I read "Why else does someone like Ference push for a vote on the ED at 3:30 AM"

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09-15-2009, 11:29 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
That is good old Buzz making friends wherever he goes.
While I personally don't necessarily agree with them, most of those seem like perfectly sensible positions to take.

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09-16-2009, 11:46 AM
  #383
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NHLFA (Fan Assoc. - not a typo) sends "open letter" to Paul Kelly (Hockey News)

Jim Boone's Open Letter via Blog

Linden now weighing in (TSN).... hmmmmmm... Truthfully, don't know what to think about this yet

Quote:
"When you look at guy like Ian Penny - he's basically undermined two executive directors to this point, so I've got concerns about their ability to hire someone who will want to come into that situation with the way the constitution is set up," Linden told the radio station. "I think it creates a very unhealthy environment in the office. It's disappointing, but hopefully they get it right."
Linden Frustrated

Jason Cole at Yahoo! Sports says Berthelsen is not an option (In the middle of the main article)

Quote:
First, a big reason why the NHLPA picked Kelly over Berthelsen was that Kelly was younger and was expected to be on the job longer. Berthelsen hasn’t gotten any younger.

Second, Berthelsen is troubled by the structure of the NHLPA job, a source familiar with the circumstances said. Hockey players have constructed a complicated system that includes an advisory board and independent employees outside the control of the executive director, making it difficult for anyone to have long-term success in the job.

Or as the source said, “The whole situation is set up for failure.”
Don’t expect Berthelsen to jump in


Last edited by Major4Boarding: 09-16-2009 at 12:05 PM. Reason: Added More Articles - Condensed to One Post
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09-16-2009, 11:52 AM
  #384
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Still doesn't seem to be anything substantial being leaked. Perhaps Kelley is just going to keep his mouth shut and collect his (substantial) severance.

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09-16-2009, 11:53 AM
  #385
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While I personally don't necessarily agree with them, most of those seem like perfectly sensible positions to take.
Perhaps if you are not the head of a union and supposed to be working with the NDP.

I have a little problem characterizing the Conservatives as a separatist party while complimenting the PQ.

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09-17-2009, 12:47 PM
  #386
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http://www.nationalpost.com/sports/s...tml?id=2004190

Quote:
Chelios wants Kelly to return to NHLPA: report
Canwest News Service
Published: Thursday, September 17, 2009

Chris Chelios is planning to talk with other players about the possibility of bringing back Paul Kelly as executive director of the National Hockey League Players' Association, according to a report on the website of a Montreal radio station.

According to the CKAC report, Chelios said he was misinformed when he was told Kelly was in a conflict of interest with Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux - two former players who have stakes in NHL teams. CKAC reports that perceived conflict led to Kelly's downfall. Chelios, currently a free agent, has a long history with the union.

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09-17-2009, 01:09 PM
  #387
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Question: If you were Kelly, would you want to, absent some changes being made (i.e., Ian Penny getting the boot)?

As an aside, assuming that Kelly is not returned to power, is there really any doubt in anyone's mind that Penny is the only choice for NHLPA Exec D? His fingerprints are on two guys now. How would any reasonably qualified candidate take on the job with him standing there?


Last edited by GSC2k2*: 09-17-2009 at 03:05 PM. Reason: corrected use of negative in last sentence.
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09-17-2009, 01:46 PM
  #388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSC2k2 View Post
Question: If you were Kelly, would you want to, absent some changes being made (i.e., Ian Penny getting the boot)?

As an aside, assuming that Kelly is not returned to power, is there really any doubt in anyone's mind that Penny is the only choice for NHLPA Exec D? His fingerprints are on two guys now. How would any reasonably qualified candidate not take on the job with him standing there?
I thought about that too. Absent some serious changes, why would Kelly want anything more to do with the association? Even so, he may have decided that it wouldn't be worth the battle. I was intrigued by the mention of -- was it Fehr of MLBPA?

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09-17-2009, 01:55 PM
  #389
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Good luck with that, Chris.

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09-17-2009, 02:00 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by GSC2k2 View Post
Question: If you were Kelly, would you want to, absent some changes being made (i.e., Ian Penny getting the boot)?
I want to believe that he would, but it would no doubt go beyond just the removal of Penny for him to do so. Remove the cancerous underbelly of malcontents. I don't even think you would have to tear down and redo the whole constitution for him to consider coming back.

As long as ALL 700+ players get involved and the roles of Ombudsman, Advisory Council, and the Executive Board are clearly defined and filled with people that serve in the best interests of the PA overall (with all the players input). Not 30, Not 8... all of them.

In light of this article, I wouldn't be surprised to hear now (or soon) that "factions" are huddling up even moreso than before, with sides preparing the mud sling against their own. That the internal campaigning and propaganda from the likes of Hargrove, Penny, Pink etc will no doubt stoke the flames. Focusing and starting with Chelios.

Civil War

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09-17-2009, 02:34 PM
  #391
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I was intrigued by the mention of -- was it Fehr of MLBPA?
So was I. For the Hardliners, he has the track record to warrant looking into. His battle against the MLB owners when he came onboard is a plus. He's not afraid to "strike". Staunchly Union. BullDog mentality Negotiator. The only "knock" on him is the MLB Players and PED's. He's been accused of (Bud Selig - consider the source though) that while under Fehr's watch, the MLBPA rejected drug tesing when it was first proposed to them. Which is, no doubt the League's finger-pointing tactics of why PED's got so out of control in MLB.

I'm not so sure, IMO, that the current CBA as it stands would warrant bringing this much ammo (Fehr) to the negotiations table in 2011 but if the choices were Ron Pink, Buzz Hardgrove, Ian Penny, or Donald Fehr, I'll take Fehr.

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09-17-2009, 04:21 PM
  #392
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Could this ordeal get any weirder...

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09-17-2009, 04:44 PM
  #393
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Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
Could this ordeal get any weirder...
Paul Kelly and Bob Goodenow - Co-Executive Directors?

Ian Pulver as General Counsel?

Chris Chelios as Ombudsman?

Buzz Hargrove as janitor?

Ron Pink as stickboy?

Eric Lindros as whipping boy?

Works for me.

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09-17-2009, 04:46 PM
  #394
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Chelios said he was misinformed when he was told Kelly was in a conflict of interest with Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux - two former players who have stakes in NHL teams. CKAC reports that perceived conflict led to Kelly's downfall.
Sounds like a typical Buzz Hargrove ploy. Not the first time he has planted stories.

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09-17-2009, 04:52 PM
  #395
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Trevor Linden's take from a Team 1040 interview:
Quote:
"When you look at guy like Ian Penny - he's basically undermined two executive directors to this point, so I've got concerns about their ability to hire someone who will want to come into that situation with the way the constitution is set up," Linden told the radio station. "I think it creates a very unhealthy environment in the office. It's disappointing, but hopefully they get it right."

According to Linden, a large part of the problem is the young demographic of the executive board and the likelihood of intimidation in meetings, such as the one that was held in Chicago that saw the dismissal of Kelly in the wee hours of the morning.

"I guess my main concern is that the executive board - which is the 30 player reps - is made up of a lot of young players," Linden told Team 1040 Radio. "They get into a room like that and get influenced by someone who's talking more and louder than everyone else."
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=291139

I think Linden is accurate but he has to carry some of the blame for undermining Bob Goodenow in the first place and sliding in Ted Saskin illegally.

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09-17-2009, 06:09 PM
  #396
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I wonder if Linden would be agreeable to coming on as ombudsman?

He made a few mistakes but he is clearly well respected (witness what happened at his last game).

You can't really blame him for the Goodenowe situation. The mood of the players and agents had clearly changed but Goodenowe didn't want to compromise. Linden didn't break any rules as far as I can tell - he was only acting in his position as president.

His involvement with Saskin was regrettable but I don't think you could argue malice there.

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09-17-2009, 06:25 PM
  #397
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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
I wonder if Linden would be agreeable to coming on as ombudsman?

He made a few mistakes but he is clearly well respected (witness what happened at his last game).

You can't really blame him for the Goodenowe situation. The mood of the players and agents had clearly changed but Goodenowe didn't want to compromise. Linden didn't break any rules as far as I can tell - he was only acting in his position as president.

His involvement with Saskin was regrettable but I don't think you could argue malice there.
Linden broke a number of rules set out in the Constitution during that time as the reports commissioned by the NHLPA made clear - that was why the oversights and checks and balances were put in - way over-kill IMHO but Linden bears responsibility for it.

I do not think he could possibly come back to the NHLPA. he is saddled with Saskin. That was his call.

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09-17-2009, 07:00 PM
  #398
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Originally Posted by GSC2k2 View Post
Question: If you were Kelly, would you want to, absent some changes being made (i.e., Ian Penny getting the boot)?
I wonder if the league would bring him on itself in some way.

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09-17-2009, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Linden broke a number of rules set out in the Constitution during that time as the reports commissioned by the NHLPA made clear - that was why the oversights and checks and balances were put in - way over-kill IMHO but Linden bears responsibility for it.

I do not think he could possibly come back to the NHLPA. he is saddled with Saskin. That was his call.
I realize the rules were not followed in the Saskin hiring, but what rules did he break by changing the union's stance during negotiations? Was that not his call to make as president? I understand he ticked some people off but he did get a deal that has been decent for the players.

I'd like to see some more information about the rules he broke there if you have it.

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09-17-2009, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
I realize the rules were not followed in the Saskin hiring, but what rules did he break by changing the union's stance during negotiations? Was that not his call to make as president? I understand he ticked some people off but he did get a deal that has been decent for the players.

I'd like to see some more information about the rules he broke there if you have it.
So, to fix the problems that the overreaction to rule-breaking caused(including more rule-breaking), the guy to bring is the guy who was at the forefront of the original rule-breaking?

You do realize that the "decent deal" he got the players was one that the owners got everything they wanted, right?

Like I said earlier in this thread, I think a lot of those Calgary players think differently about doing a post-game handshake with Linden now than they did then.

Linden basically abused his position. He is a good source for quotes for the media. He is not a good option for the PA.

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