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Old
09-22-2009, 03:18 PM
  #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post

Lisin also scored a goal that Avery negated with an interference penalty. So that's 4 goals in 5 games.
And then Lisin shot a puck wide in his other game, so hes basically a goal per game scorer.

You guys put way too much creedence in the preseason numbers. Lisin has earned himself the first crack at the top 9 when someone goes down or if one of the veterans proves to be ineffective. That in itself is admirable, and he should be happy about it.

But to say a guy like Kotalik or Avery should sit or be banished RIGHT NOW in favor of Lisin is pure lunacy.

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09-22-2009, 03:21 PM
  #252
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the only thing is, Lisin, at least to me, hasnt been all that impressive besides for when the puck is in teh back of the net. i havent been all that happy with his board play, his own zone play, his neutral zone play, his passing, etc...ive just liked his skating, and his ability to be in the right lanes in the offensive zone....right now a lot of his goals are goals ANYONE can score. they are not a product of him "crashing the net" more of being in the right place at the right time kind of thing. its what got chris drury so much fan fare, but after a while that luck has to run out, and unlike drury, lisins play apart from putting the puck in the net when he is fortunate enough to be in that right place at the right time, is severely lacking.

again though, this is just my 2 cents.

ive been far more impressed with Grachev than Lisin. Grachevs play away from the puck has been >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than Lisins.

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09-22-2009, 03:41 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
the only thing is, Lisin, at least to me, hasnt been all that impressive besides for when the puck is in teh back of the net. i havent been all that happy with his board play, his own zone play, his neutral zone play, his passing, etc...ive just liked his skating, and his ability to be in the right lanes in the offensive zone....right now a lot of his goals are goals ANYONE can score. they are not a product of him "crashing the net" more of being in the right place at the right time kind of thing. its what got chris drury so much fan fare, but after a while that luck has to run out, and unlike drury, lisins play apart from putting the puck in the net when he is fortunate enough to be in that right place at the right time, is severely lacking.

again though, this is just my 2 cents.

ive been far more impressed with Grachev than Lisin. Grachevs play away from the puck has been >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than Lisins.
Yeah, i've seen it the same way. Knock Korpikoski for not scoring much, but he has speed AND a physical game along the boards, wouldve been interested in seeing him with Gaborik.

Still giving Lisin some time cause its just the beginning.

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09-22-2009, 03:41 PM
  #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
the only thing is, Lisin, at least to me, hasnt been all that impressive besides for when the puck is in teh back of the net. i havent been all that happy with his board play, his own zone play, his neutral zone play, his passing, etc...ive just liked his skating, and his ability to be in the right lanes in the offensive zone....right now a lot of his goals are goals ANYONE can score. they are not a product of him "crashing the net" more of being in the right place at the right time kind of thing. its what got chris drury so much fan fare, but after a while that luck has to run out, and unlike drury, lisins play apart from putting the puck in the net when he is fortunate enough to be in that right place at the right time, is severely lacking.
again though, this is just my 2 cents.

ive been far more impressed with Grachev than Lisin. Grachevs play away from the puck has been >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than Lisins.
you make hockey sound so simple. im surprised how easy it is to score goals in the nhl. i thought it was much tougher.

sometimes being in the right place at the right time is what goal scorers do.

last season, how many goals did we not score that were slam dunks ?

saying lisins has been severely lacking is a joke. really.

lisins passing has been fine. making tape to tape passes and moving his feet. witness the nice pass to the front that gabby almost slammed in last night. he hasnt had any chances one on one so he hasnt shown off any dangle moves yet. he doesnt over stay his shifts. hes been unselfish with his play making a nice pass to pap on a 2 on 1 where he could have shot it. hes been solid on the wall and digging pucks out. he been diligent back checking and playing the man and hasnt looked lost at all in the dzone. he certainly isnt afraid to go in the corners and hes not anything close to a "perimiter player" only. he plays high and wide when the puck is on the opposite side of the ice which is proper position and he hasnt been cherry picking or costing chances against for failing to get back. he doesnt look lost on the ice and he doesnt wander. hes been pretty solid and everything ive read from all the blogs and from the msg people has been nothing but positive.

im looking forward to your ridiculous review of drurys play. and kotalik. and higgins. and redden and rozy. i would love to hear how you think theyve played so far. since you hated most of lisins games, cant wait for you to rip those guys.

ill be looking forward to your comments.

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09-22-2009, 03:44 PM
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
the only thing is, Lisin, at least to me, hasnt been all that impressive besides for when the puck is in teh back of the net. i havent been all that happy with his board play, his own zone play, his neutral zone play, his passing, etc...ive just liked his skating, and his ability to be in the right lanes in the offensive zone....right now a lot of his goals are goals ANYONE can score. they are not a product of him "crashing the net" more of being in the right place at the right time kind of thing. its what got chris drury so much fan fare, but after a while that luck has to run out, and unlike drury, lisins play apart from putting the puck in the net when he is fortunate enough to be in that right place at the right time, is severely lacking.

again though, this is just my 2 cents.

ive been far more impressed with Grachev than Lisin. Grachevs play away from the puck has been >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than Lisins.
That's great, but the point is, Lisin is putting the puck in the net.

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09-22-2009, 04:02 PM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
you make hockey sound so simple. im surprised how easy it is to score goals in the nhl. i thought it was much tougher.

sometimes being in the right place at the right time is what goal scorers do.

last season, how many goals did we not score that were slam dunks ?

saying lisins has been severely lacking is a joke. really.

lisins passing has been fine. making tape to tape passes and moving his feet. witness the nice pass to the front that gabby almost slammed in last night. he hasnt had any chances one on one so he hasnt shown off any dangle moves yet. he doesnt over stay his shifts. hes been unselfish with his play making a nice pass to pap on a 2 on 1 where he could have shot it. hes been solid on the wall and digging pucks out. he been diligent back checking and playing the man and hasnt looked lost at all in the dzone. he certainly isnt afraid to go in the corners and hes not anything close to a "perimiter player" only. he plays high and wide when the puck is on the opposite side of the ice which is proper position and he hasnt been cherry picking or costing chances against for failing to get back. he doesnt look lost on the ice and he doesnt wander. hes been pretty solid and everything ive read from all the blogs and from the msg people has been nothing but positive.

im looking forward to your ridiculous review of drurys play. and kotalik. and higgins. and redden and rozy. i would love to hear how you think theyve played so far. since you hated most of lisins games, cant wait for you to rip those guys.

ill be looking forward to your comments.
being a complete player is more than putting the puck in the net. theres a reason why he had 14 or whatver goals and was constantly in the doghouse of TGO and was traded for a guy who is pretty much a 4th liner. You need to play away from the puck. does he have any primary assists? does he have even any opportunities for primary assists (ie has he passed the puck to anyone who probably should have put it in, but havent?)

The slam dunk goals and the pucks off the skate goals are exactly what Petr Prucha brought to the table his first year, and as luck started to be off his side, you needed to see a more all around game for him to make scoring chances happen by himself.

Lisin hasn't shown me a particularly impressive shot, he hasn't shown me any passing skills whatsoever (at least that I can remember)..heck how many shots on goal does have through the 4(ish) games that hes had?

You know what was an impressive play? Grachev dogging the puck, causing a turnover, and passing it to Callahan for a nice goal. Thats plays I want to see Lisin making before I put his ass on the first line.

Don't get me wrong, i see him making this team, but probably on the 4th line, as his play away from the puck...what he brings to the table besides being in the right place to score easy goals, is far far far below what guys like, Higgins, Callahan, Dubinsky, Avery, Gaborik, Drury, Prospal, even Kotalik bring. Kotalik for all his negatives still has the ability to generate offense on his own independent of what other people do.

You know what I really want to see from Lisin? I want to see him using his speed to cause a turnover and break in for a breakaway...like Gaborik almost did twice yesterday.

Hes young, he has a lot to learn. I just dont buy the (basically 1 man propagated) hype here. But don't worry, im sure someone out there will give you the pat on the back you so desperately want, I'll just sit back and wait to see more from him before I change my mind that he is nothing special...yet.

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09-22-2009, 04:05 PM
  #257
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People here often act, as my friends and I used to call it, as members of the Church of What's Happening Now.

If Kotalik scores a goal in the opener, I'm going to read what a great acquisition he is. If Lisin scores it will prove to some that he is the steal of the century and destined for greatness. If Gilroy gets turned inside out by a forward, some will be screaming that he's a dud.

Too much opinion is based on too little evidence here, and I guess most everywhere else also.

Geez, none of these so-called great guys have faced an NHL-caliber lineup yet. Until then we won't have a clue what folks are worth.

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09-22-2009, 04:35 PM
  #258
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Guys, Look it's pre-season. I know pre-season under Torts is a diffrent animal, but it's still pre-season. How many times do we get excited about a player or two & the team in general only to be let down.

We won't know what this team really is until 15 to 20 games into the seaon.

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09-22-2009, 04:40 PM
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
the only thing is, Lisin, at least to me, hasnt been all that impressive besides for when the puck is in teh back of the net. i havent been all that happy with his board play, his own zone play, his neutral zone play, his passing, etc...ive just liked his skating, and his ability to be in the right lanes in the offensive zone....right now a lot of his goals are goals ANYONE can score. they are not a product of him "crashing the net" more of being in the right place at the right time kind of thing. its what got chris drury so much fan fare, but after a while that luck has to run out, and unlike drury, lisins play apart from putting the puck in the net when he is fortunate enough to be in that right place at the right time, is severely lacking.

again though, this is just my 2 cents.

ive been far more impressed with Grachev than Lisin. Grachevs play away from the puck has been >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than Lisins.
Since I'm already sold on Lisin's play on the offensive end, I've been paying pretty close to his defense, attention to detail etc. and I would rate it as acceptable and much improved over prior seasons. Look, goals are great but the eye test is what is important. What I see is a hard working player who is not afraid to play the man and go to the tough parts of the ice. He still has a ways to come but a) he can't be waived and b) as much as I love Grachev, he's really outplayed him. Grachev still looks a little timid in the offensive zone. That's OK, it will come and it will come fast. You can see flashes. How can you tell players that pre-season matters and then not reward those who play best?

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09-22-2009, 05:03 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
And then Lisin shot a puck wide in his other game, so hes basically a goal per game scorer.

You guys put way too much creedence in the preseason numbers. Lisin has earned himself the first crack at the top 9 when someone goes down or if one of the veterans proves to be ineffective. That in itself is admirable, and he should be happy about it.

But to say a guy like Kotalik or Avery should sit or be banished RIGHT NOW in favor of Lisin is pure lunacy.
I've obviously been on the side of those impressed with Lisin, and you obviously haven't, so I'm not going to dredge up any of the points we've been over ad nauseum. I do, however, want to discuss the detail of the disallowed goal.

When it comes to the final score, they mean ****-all, I agree. However, in influencing a coach's judgment on who rates playing time, a play like that (where Lisin beat the goalie and the puck was going into the net except for a BS call on another player that occured after the puck was already past the goalie) will definitely factor into the equation. To suggest it's on a par with a misfire to the glass is completely disingenuous.

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09-22-2009, 05:15 PM
  #261
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So for a team that had scoring goals the past couple of seasons they are supposed to play a guy who has proven to be able to score some goals on the 4th line? What would happen if Higgins had scored 4 goals? How about Kotalik? Drury? People would be clamoring for them to be on the top line with Gaborik without a seconds hesitation.

Lisin has been able to put the puck in the back of the net which helps a team win and his forechecking has been very good as well. He needs help defensively but even that has gotten better since I watched him last season. He has good size, world-class speed, offensive awareness, a good attitude and good hands. To me that sounds like a player who a team would want to develop correctly, which means he should be on the 3rd line getting some offensive time while refining the rest of his game.

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09-22-2009, 05:47 PM
  #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
I've obviously been on the side of those impressed with Lisin, and you obviously haven't, so I'm not going to dredge up any of the points we've been over ad nauseum. I do, however, want to discuss the detail of the disallowed goal.

When it comes to the final score, they mean ****-all, I agree. However, in influencing a coach's judgment on who rates playing time, a play like that (where Lisin beat the goalie and the puck was going into the net except for a BS call on another player that occured after the puck was already past the goalie) will definitely factor into the equation. To suggest it's on a par with a misfire to the glass is completely disingenuous.
Obviously your sarcasm meter is a little off today.

I hate to burst your bubble and, really, it means nothing in the grand scheme of things, but Lisin's shot hit Avery before it got to the net. Dont think it would have went in otherwise.

But again, thats not the point...and to say I havent been impressed with Lisin is disingenuous on your part. Hes been OK...hes played himself into a reserve forward role. Thats commendable. Suddenly, since Im saying he wont be in the top 9, Im a Lisin hater. Yet, noone can answer me about who hes going to displace in the top 9 without ridiculous ideas about Kotalik or Avery playing on the 4th line.

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09-22-2009, 05:52 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Obviously your sarcasm meter is a little off today.

I hate to burst your bubble and, really, it means nothing in the grand scheme of things, but Lisin's shot hit Avery before it got to the net. Dont think it would have went in otherwise.

But again, thats not the point...and to say I havent been impressed with Lisin is disingenuous on your part. Hes been OK...hes played himself into a reserve forward role. Thats commendable. Suddenly, since Im saying he wont be in the top 9, Im a Lisin hater. Yet, noone can answer me about who hes going to displace in the top 9 without ridiculous ideas about Kotalik or Avery playing on the 4th line.
exactly my point. hes definitely not done enough for me to want to play him over the other wingers we already have. He'll get his minutes though, start off on the 4th line, and as soon as there is an injury he will move up.

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09-22-2009, 05:58 PM
  #264
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Kotalik is an average at best ES player, honestly it probably would make sense to put him on the 4th line and give him the entire PP if Lisin was playing that well.

Granted, he probably won't, but who knows.

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09-22-2009, 06:05 PM
  #265
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Kotalik is an average at best ES player, honestly it probably would make sense to put him on the 4th line and give him the entire PP if Lisin was playing that well.

Granted, he probably won't, but who knows.
Kotaliks average numbers averaged over 82 games played...

22 goals
24 assists
46 points


Lisins CAREER numbers:
78 GP
18 goals
10 assists
(averaged to 82, 19/11/30)

Let's try to play in the sane end of the sandbox people.

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09-22-2009, 06:27 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Obviously your sarcasm meter is a little off today.

I hate to burst your bubble and, really, it means nothing in the grand scheme of things, but Lisin's shot hit Avery before it got to the net. Dont think it would have went in otherwise.

But again, thats not the point...and to say I havent been impressed with Lisin is disingenuous on your part. Hes been OK...hes played himself into a reserve forward role. Thats commendable. Suddenly, since Im saying he wont be in the top 9, Im a Lisin hater. Yet, noone can answer me about who hes going to displace in the top 9 without ridiculous ideas about Kotalik or Avery playing on the 4th line.
Please, my sarcasm meter was working just fine - I picked up on the fact that you made a very sarcastic point drawing a very unflattering comparison between the shot in question and a complete whiff to the glass. Don't try to play it off like you weren't saying the one was worth no more than the other (which is the only logical interpretation of your comment about my sarcasm meter being off), because you clearly were.

1) I didn't see Avery hit it, despite viewing several replays. All I saw was two flailing sticks in the area and a few posts on this forum that said he did.

2) It was going in anyway regardless of the other players around the net - which is still completely in keeping with my point, regardless of whether or not I'm right about Avery hitting it.

3) Read your last line again: "Yet, noone can answer me about who hes going to displace in the top 9 without ridiculous ideas about Kotalik or Avery playing on the 4th line." If you were God and your declaration that Kotalik or Avery on the fourth line was ridiculous would make it so, this would be a legitimate point. Otherwise, sorry, but these ARE perfectly credible suggestions, despite your disagreement.

For the record, I wasn't trying to take it to the individual players again. I was simply discussing the merits of a disallowed goal in evaluating a player.

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09-22-2009, 06:53 PM
  #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post

Lisins CAREER numbers:
78 GP
18 goals
10 assists
(averaged to 82, 19/11/30)

Let's try to play in the sane end of the sandbox people.
You first. Lisin has never played outside of the Coyotes bottom 6 with pretty craptastic line mates, and yet still finds ways to score. If you guys are going to play him bottom 6 minutes and give him bottom 6 players to play with don't be surprised when he doesn't do well.

He's not a bottom 6 player. Period. Whether he has "earned" the right to take a top 6 over someone else is the main issue. Always has been with him. To date, Im going to assume, he hasn't in Rangerland so it's sort of an impasse. But if and when Torts plays him minimally with grinders don't say "this Lisin guy sucks."

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09-22-2009, 07:18 PM
  #268
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Looking at the advanced stats on Gabe Desjardins' site http://www.behindthenet.ca/, Lisin is a really interesting player.

He had the highest goals/60 in 5v5 play on the team at 1.27 despite being paired with weak linemates. Doan was second at .96. That's a pretty large differential. It also backs up what the Coyotes fans on this board have been saying about Gretzky misusing Lisin.

He was 4th on that team with 1.80 pts/60, again at 5v5, with horrible linemates. That's a better pace than Boedker, Hanzal, Mueller and Turris.

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09-22-2009, 07:29 PM
  #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
being a complete player is more than putting the puck in the net. theres a reason why he had 14 or whatver goals and was constantly in the doghouse of TGO and was traded for a guy who is pretty much a 4th liner. You need to play away from the puck. does he have any primary assists? does he have even any opportunities for primary assists (ie has he passed the puck to anyone who probably should have put it in, but havent?)

The slam dunk goals and the pucks off the skate goals are exactly what Petr Prucha brought to the table his first year, and as luck started to be off his side, you needed to see a more all around game for him to make scoring chances happen by himself.

Lisin hasn't shown me a particularly impressive shot, he hasn't shown me any passing skills whatsoever (at least that I can remember)..heck how many shots on goal does have through the 4(ish) games that hes had?

You know what was an impressive play? Grachev dogging the puck, causing a turnover, and passing it to Callahan for a nice goal. Thats plays I want to see Lisin making before I put his ass on the first line.

Don't get me wrong, i see him making this team, but probably on the 4th line, as his play away from the puck...what he brings to the table besides being in the right place to score easy goals, is far far far below what guys like, Higgins, Callahan, Dubinsky, Avery, Gaborik, Drury, Prospal, even Kotalik bring. Kotalik for all his negatives still has the ability to generate offense on his own independent of what other people do.

You know what I really want to see from Lisin? I want to see him using his speed to cause a turnover and break in for a breakaway...like Gaborik almost did twice yesterday.

Hes young, he has a lot to learn. I just dont buy the (basically 1 man propagated) hype here. But don't worry, im sure someone out there will give you the pat on the back you so desperately want, I'll just sit back and wait to see more from him before I change my mind that he is nothing special...yet.
i find it funny that you are prepared to say that lisin hasnt done enough while most of those players you named that are ahead of him have done even less. theyve shown very little yet they are given a pass.

so then you want to see him be that one dimensional player he was -wrongly- accused of being.

to hell with him doing those little things that he does that help teams win games. he needs to score on more breakaways. yeah right, thats how he can impress you.

hes done just fine and hes been very multi dimensional. hes shown a complete game. exactly what some of us said he would bring.

in the end, hell wind up playing with gaborik.

at that point ill look forward to your unrealistic criticisms of how hes only having success because hes playing with gaborik


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09-22-2009, 07:42 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by NickyZ View Post
Looking at the advanced stats on Gabe Desjardins' site http://www.behindthenet.ca/, Lisin is a really interesting player.

He had the highest goals/60 in 5v5 play on the team at 1.27 despite being paired with weak linemates. Doan was second at .96. That's a pretty large differential. It also backs up what the Coyotes fans on this board have been saying about Gretzky misusing Lisin.

He was 4th on that team with 1.80 pts/60, again at 5v5, with horrible linemates. That's a better pace than Boedker, Hanzal, Mueller and Turris.
this supports everything i have read about lisins stay in phoenix.

hes a productive player and hes been the same way since hes been here. producing points.

if his numbers look like that on dreadful yotes team, imagine what he can do playing with a good team on an offensive line with talented line mates.

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09-22-2009, 07:52 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
Kotaliks average numbers averaged over 82 games played...

22 goals
24 assists
46 points


Lisins CAREER numbers:
78 GP
18 goals
10 assists
(averaged to 82, 19/11/30)

Let's try to play in the sane end of the sandbox people.
MPP=Minutes played per point

Kotalik the past two years:
08/09: 943 min @ ES, 19 points (11G, 8A), 49.6 MPP
07/08: 951 min @ ES, 21 points (4G, 11A), 45.3 MPP

Lisin:
08/09: 578 min @ ES, 19 points (12G, 7A), 30.4 MPP

I won't even take into account quality of linemates.

Seems quite sandy over here, thanks for the concern though.

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Old
09-22-2009, 08:03 PM
  #272
offdacrossbar
with the 10th pick..
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
Kotaliks average numbers averaged over 82 games played...

22 goals
24 assists
46 points


Lisins CAREER numbers:
78 GP
18 goals
10 assists
(averaged to 82, 19/11/30)

Let's try to play in the sane end of the sandbox people.
ouch.

dude i like your stuff but seriously, you are drinking the anti-lisin koolaide.

you are being pummeled with facts that refute your silly comments.

please stop

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Old
09-22-2009, 08:11 PM
  #273
offdacrossbar
with the 10th pick..
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
People here often act, as my friends and I used to call it, as members of the Church of What's Happening Now.

If Kotalik scores a goal in the opener, I'm going to read what a great acquisition he is. If Lisin scores it will prove to some that he is the steal of the century and destined for greatness. If Gilroy gets turned inside out by a forward, some will be screaming that he's a dud.

Too much opinion is based on too little evidence here, and I guess most everywhere else also.

Geez, none of these so-called great guys have faced an NHL-caliber lineup yet. Until then we won't have a clue what folks are worth.


yeah cant wait till rozy and redden and drury and kotalik get a full dose of real nhl talent. theyve sucked horse against ahl players, nhl hasbens, rookies and tryout warriors, but im sure theyll pick it up against some of the best players in the world.


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Old
09-22-2009, 08:13 PM
  #274
Bleed Ranger Blue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
[/B]

yeah cant wait till rozy and redden and drury and kotalik get a full dose of real nhl talent. theyve sucked horse against ahl players, nhl hasbens, rookies and tryout warriors, but im sure theyll pick it up against some of the best players in the world.

They have like 30 years of NHL experience combined.

This is one of your stranger comments, and thats saying a lot.

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Old
09-22-2009, 08:13 PM
  #275
Banks3rdLineCenter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian View Post
MPP=Minutes played per point

Kotalik the past two years:
08/09: 943 min @ ES, 19 points (11G, 8A), 49.6 MPP
07/08: 951 min @ ES, 21 points (4G, 11A), 45.3 MPP

Lisin:
08/09: 578 min @ ES, 19 points (12G, 7A), 30.4 MPP

I won't even take into account quality of linemates.

Seems quite sandy over here, thanks for the concern though.
This is good stuff. MPP, I like that measurement. I posted in another thread about how I've seen a couple of hockey stats guys compare minutes in hockey to "at-bats" in baseball. MPP seems to reflect that logic.

Which site did you draw that from? Or did you calculate it yourself?

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