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Old
09-25-2009, 09:46 AM
  #351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
well...besides some youtube videos, i havent seen anything from Lisin in the preseason to make me think he is more skilled than anyone not named Voros, Boyle or Brashear on this roster...i mean all he has really done is had 1 nice shot off of a brilliant pass from Gaborik that 99 out of 100 NHLers bury.

again, im not down on this kid, i just dont think his play has warranted sitting anyone in the projected top 9 who isnt injured.

Frankly Grachev has outplayed him away from the puck, and has what...2 or 3 assists himself...which are actually primary assists coming off of hard working plays.

*shrugs* if i had my way, Grachev goes down and dominates for a year in the A, and Lisin plays on the 4th line while Voros sits.
By the way, I DO agree with this point, Inferno. Evgeny has shown great flashes of his talent, but you can see that he's still adjusting to playing with men. I imagine he'll have a season in the AHL much like last year in the OHL (start off a little slow, dominating by the holidays) and that we'll see him some time in 2010.

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09-25-2009, 09:46 AM
  #352
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Well, ****, then why have the preseason? By your rationale how is a kid ever supposed to break into the lineup, other than as a Wally Pip injury replacement in midseason where he proves that in "real games" he can outplay the vet who is languishing on IR? Because according to the mindset you're advocating, barring a Wayne Gretzky-like performance where the kid racks up more goals than his teammates have points in preseason, no kid will ever play his way onto anything other than maybe the fourth line.

Frankly, that attitude feels an awful lot like the same attitude that the Rangers used to justify dealing away youth for "proven" player after "proven" player since I started watching the Rangers back in the eighties.
Well, about 90% of the time, a motivated proven player will outperform a motivated prospect. Problem is, the Rangers have had a hell of a lot of trouble motivating proven players, especially in the late 90's/early 2000's. I dont think that will be a problem under Tortorella, and if it is, the proven player will sit and the kid will get a shot. Its simple really, and its the safe way to go about a season. If the vet gets injured or doesnt produce, you have a kid as a fallback plan. If you hand the kid a roster spot on a silver platter and he is ineffective or gets injured, you have nothing.

But back to Lisin, I honestly dont understand all the hype. He hasnt been the type of player thats gotten me out of my seat, or has demanded my attention when hes on the ice. Hes been OK. Since hes been OK, and the vets have been OK, who do you think is going to get the benefit of the doubt?

And quite honestly, Im not even factoring in that dispicable bull-fighters defense he whipped out on Semin last night.

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09-25-2009, 09:55 AM
  #353
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Well, ****, then why have the preseason? By your rationale how is a kid ever supposed to break into the lineup, other than as a Wally Pip injury replacement in midseason where he proves that in "real games" he can outplay the vet who is languishing on IR? Because according to the mindset you're advocating, barring a Wayne Gretzky-like performance where the kid racks up more goals than his teammates have points in preseason, no kid will ever play his way onto anything other than maybe the fourth line.

Frankly, that attitude feels an awful lot like the same attitude that the Rangers used to justify dealing away youth for "proven" player after "proven" player since I started watching the Rangers back in the eighties.
bingo.

you nailed it.

like usual, its only one of these 2 things.

1. play well and this-------> who cares. its preseason so none of it matters. they arent playing top talent. they arent showing anything against "real" nhl players so therefore the results prove nothing. no matter what they do, they cant displace an encumbant vet no matter how poorly they play.

2. play poorly and this-----> they arent ready. theyve shown nothing to warrant playing over "established players with a track record" (of mediocre play). they played poorly against those same ahl types and borderline wannabes so they wont be any good against real nhl talent and will fail when the real games begin.

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09-25-2009, 10:02 AM
  #354
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
bingo.

you nailed it.

like usual, its only one of these 2 things.

1. play well and this-------> who cares. its preseason so none of it matters. they arent playing top talent. they arent showing anything against "real" nhl players so therefore the results prove nothing. no matter what they do, they cant displace an encumbant vet no matter how poorly they play.

2. play poorly and this-----> they arent ready. theyve shown nothing to warrant playing over "established players with a track record" (of mediocre play). they played poorly against those same ahl types and borderline wannabes so they wont be any good against real nhl talent and will fail when the real games begin.
Any and all of those arguments are far better than yours, which consists of hyping Enver Lisin to unparalleled degrees, with very little evidence to support your claims that we possess an offensive dynamo just waiting to bust out.

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09-25-2009, 10:04 AM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Well, about 90% of the time, a motivated proven player will outperform a motivated prospect. Problem is, the Rangers have had a hell of a lot of trouble motivating proven players, especially in the late 90's/early 2000's. I dont think that will be a problem under Tortorella, and if it is, the proven player will sit and the kid will get a shot. Its simple really, and its the safe way to go about a season. If the vet gets injured or doesnt produce, you have a kid as a fallback plan. If you hand the kid a roster spot on a silver platter and he is ineffective or gets injured, you have nothing.

But back to Lisin, I honestly dont understand all the hype. He hasnt been the type of player thats gotten me out of my seat, or has demanded my attention when hes on the ice. Hes been OK. Since hes been OK, and the vets have been OK, who do you think is going to get the benefit of the doubt?

And quite honestly, Im not even factoring in that dispicable bull-fighters defense he whipped out on Semin last night.
your comments have become unreadable. words like dispicable are a bit over the top.

i got up outa my seat twice last night watching lisin. the first was when he toasted that defender with the inside outside move (perhaps you missed that) and the other time when he did his zoro routine on semins goal. once to say wow and the other to say wtf was that ?

your posts have become nothing more than well crafted hatchet jobs on lisin.

weak. very weak.

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09-25-2009, 10:11 AM
  #356
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
your comments have become unreadable. words like dispicable are a bit over the top.

i got up outa my seat twice last night watching lisin. the first was when he toasted that defender with the inside outside move (perhaps you missed that) and the other time when he did his zoro routine on semins goal. once to say wow and the other to say wtf was that ?

your posts have become nothing more than well crafted hatchet jobs on lisin.

weak. very weak.
I have said REPEATEDLY that he has been OK. Your man-crush on Lisin is scary considering you think me calling him OK is a "hatchet-job"

And no, I didnt miss Lisin's first shift where he did make a nice move. In fact, the only times I have noticed him have been in the first few shifts of most games before he seems to be neutralized and a nonfactor as the game goes along.

Again, hes been OK. Certainly good enough to earn a roster spot. Clamoring for anything more right now is just you fooling yourself into believing hes better than hes shown.

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09-25-2009, 10:32 AM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I have said REPEATEDLY that he has been OK. Your man-crush on Lisin is scary considering you think me calling him OK is a "hatchet-job"

And no, I didnt miss Lisin's first shift where he did make a nice move. In fact, the only times I have noticed him have been in the first few shifts of most games before he seems to be neutralized and a nonfactor as the game goes along.

Again, hes been OK. Certainly good enough to earn a roster spot. Clamoring for anything more right now is just you fooling yourself into believing hes better than hes shown.
still looking but havent yet found your review of anisimovs "performance" last night. maybe i missed it.

lisin wil lbe fine. hell have plenty of time to be a "factor".

and my "man-crush" isnt on lisin in particular, its on all of our young offensive talent, both fowards and dmen, that this organization has now and has been void of for far too long.

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09-25-2009, 10:33 AM
  #358
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I just have this feeling that Lisin is the next Prucha.

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09-25-2009, 10:43 AM
  #359
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Originally Posted by ThirdEye View Post
I just have this feeling that Lisin is the next Prucha.
im sure you are not alone.

the way i see it is this.

prucha was a guy who got by on heart and hustle alone. his talent level was average.

lisin is a better skater. has a better shot. is more creative. hes bigger and heavier.

the bottom line will be can lisin put it all together and then do it consistently?

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09-25-2009, 11:13 AM
  #360
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Originally Posted by ThirdEye View Post
I just have this feeling that Lisin is the next Prucha.
The Prucha that scored 30 goals as a rookie and was a very consistent offensive performer night in and night out or the Prucha that was ruined by Tom Renney in the years to follow? Because I'll sure as hell sign up for 30 goals out of Lisin right now.

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09-25-2009, 11:25 AM
  #361
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Originally Posted by Balej20 View Post
The Prucha that scored 30 goals as a rookie and was a very consistent offensive performer night in and night out or the Prucha that was ruined by Tom Renney in the years to follow? Because I'll sure as hell sign up for 30 goals out of Lisin right now.
The only person that ruined Peter Prucha was Peter Prucha

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09-25-2009, 12:16 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by blue2noise View Post
The only person that ruined Peter Prucha was Peter Prucha
We agree !

Lisin is what he is, some are overrating him, some don't care for him. I think he's small potatoes in the long run. I still think Korps is the better overall player and that trade shouldn't have been made, but its done and i'm over it.

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09-25-2009, 12:55 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
We agree !

Lisin is what he is, some are overrating him, some don't care for him. I think he's small potatoes in the long run. I still think Korps is the better overall player and that trade shouldn't have been made, but its done and i'm over it.
He actually reminds me of Zherdev a little, both the good and bad. Let's hope Torts can straighten the kid out defensively because he has a higher offensive upside than Korpedo.

That Semin goal was nothing more than laziness. You can fix lazy. You can't fix untalented.

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09-25-2009, 01:42 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Its preseason. The vets are just trying to get their legs underneath them. The young guys are are the ones that should be and are going 100% to earn a spot. Thats why its wildly off base to be raving about how Enver Lisin was a top 3 forward. Yea, 3 of the top best forwards were Anisimov and Grachev up until last night. And do you know why last night was different? Because the intensity of the game was up a little bit...Washington was fielding an NHL caliber team, and all of a sudden the vets were the ones playing well while the kids looked overmatched at times.

Lisin has played his way onto this roster and thats commendable, but despite whatever conclusions you'd like to derive from the pre-season, he is not a top 3 forward, or a top 6 forward on this team. Hes more like a #9 or 10 on the depth chart.
And i still dont think he was. Just like when Nigel Dawes would score his 3 goals in 4 games wasn't suddenly a top forward. Putting goals in a flurry doesnt mean you are a top forward, it can mean a number of thing, including getting very lucky. Like when you look at Gaborik, the 2 goals he scored were nice and all, but he does so many things away from the puck, has so many "almost" plays, that you know this is a legit guy. seeing a guy for 3 seconds in a game do something positive when he nets a goal doesnt mean you are a top forward to me, it just means you scored a goal. For example, last game, what was more impressive, Brandon Dubinsky shaking off a check, and making a power move to the net where he got the puck to the doorstep, or Higgins' tiny little tap that bbbaaarrreeelllyyy move the puck over the line. Dubinsky made that play happen. I have yet to see many (if any?) plays where I said...man, Lisin made that happen right there, even if it didnt result in a goal.

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09-25-2009, 02:35 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
And i still dont think he was. Just like when Nigel Dawes would score his 3 goals in 4 games wasn't suddenly a top forward. Putting goals in a flurry doesnt mean you are a top forward, it can mean a number of thing, including getting very lucky. Like when you look at Gaborik, the 2 goals he scored were nice and all, but he does so many things away from the puck, has so many "almost" plays, that you know this is a legit guy. seeing a guy for 3 seconds in a game do something positive when he nets a goal doesnt mean you are a top forward to me, it just means you scored a goal. For example, last game, what was more impressive, Brandon Dubinsky shaking off a check, and making a power move to the net where he got the puck to the doorstep, or Higgins' tiny little tap that bbbaaarrreeelllyyy move the puck over the line. Dubinsky made that play happen. I have yet to see many (if any?) plays where I said...man, Lisin made that happen right there, even if it didnt result in a goal.
You shouldn't compliment Dubinsky because the Lisin Fan Club thinks he is no better than Betts.

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09-25-2009, 02:37 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
You shouldn't compliment Dubinsky because the Lisin Fan Club thinks he is no better than Betts.
I assume by "the Lisin Fan Club" you are simply referring to offdacrossbar, right? 'Cause I am a HUGE Dubinsky fan.

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09-25-2009, 02:38 PM
  #367
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You shouldn't compliment Dubinsky because the Lisin Fan Club thinks he is no better than Betts.

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09-25-2009, 02:57 PM
  #368
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I really hate Torts sometimes-
Quote:
At the same time, perhaps not the best news for Brian Boyle. John Tortorella said minutes ago Artem Anisimov has the "inside track on that position," which, based on where he's been skating recently, would be the fourth-line center. Also, asked about Enver Lisin, Tortorella said "I'm pretty sure he'll start here, we want him around us to teach him."
Right now, Anisimov deserves to be ahead of Lisin on the depth chart. I'm pissed.

I'm really pulling for Lisin to make the team, but not ahead of a more deserving guy. The expectations are ridiculous.

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09-25-2009, 02:59 PM
  #369
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I really hate Torts sometimes-

Right now, Anisimov deserves to be ahead of Lisin on the depth chart. I'm pissed.

I'm really pulling for Lisin to make the team, but not ahead of a more deserving guy. The expectations are ridiculous.
this quote interested me more...

Quote:
Tortorella noted one glaring hole in Lisin's game. "He doesn't have a club away from the puck," Tortorella said.
I hate to sound like a broken record, but this is John Tortorella, if you are taking any stock from where he has guys penciled in now, you dont know him at all. The guy shifts his pieces around the board a trillion times a game. AA can play on the 4th line at the start of the game and be playing on the first line by the end. To me it makes no difference where he plays, as long as he plays. If he plays up to his capability, Torts will move him up. Hes proven hes unafraid to play the kids.

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09-25-2009, 03:12 PM
  #370
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Everybody, before you open this thread again, click on the number of replies right next to it to see who has posted here and how many times they have.

I bet you can't guess who has the most.

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09-25-2009, 03:27 PM
  #371
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I like Torts' but his strategy of publically handicapping the race for roster spots in the media doesn't sit well with me. Some things are best left unsaid.

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09-25-2009, 11:48 PM
  #372
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
It's kind of shocking that Kotalik hasn't surpassed 25G in a season. His exceptional shot, playing in a uptempo Sabres team for years.

He definitely needs to pick it up if he wants to be a regular on our top-6. If Torts can't get the most out of him, I don't think anyone can. 30 year old's don't change their habits and approach to the game overnight.

Lisin on the other hand is young enough to mold. He doesn't have the same heavy shot that Kotalik has leaned on throughout his career, but is more skilled. He's another coin-flip though. Another, make-it or break-it type.

Both players need to provide offense with the type of hockey they play. Ryan Callahan is the type of hockey player that can succeed in most roles. Top-6, Bottom-6, PP, PK, etc.. I don't see that with either Kotalik, and Lisin. Even guys like Avery, Drury, Anisimov, Dubinsky, and Higgins. Guys capable of promoting a victory, without providing offense. They have value, both short-term and long.

So what do we do if both Kotalik and Lisin fail to meet their (and our) expectations? Are we getting another question mark for the players we trade them for?

Prospal has managed to fall short of my expectations, but I don't view him as a Kotalik/Lisin/(zherdev) type. He game is more rounded, despite his lack of consistency issues throughout his career.

There's a lot riding on some of the question marks Sather has acquired this summer. Their consistency is going to be the difference between 3rd place, and 7th.
Well that's the mystery of this team - a lot of ifs.

If Gaborik is healthy.

If Kotalik is consistent enough to pop in 25 goals.

If Higgins can take the next step and pop in 25-30 goals.

If Dubinsky becomes a 60-70 point player.

If Prospal still has a 25 goal season in him.

If Listin breaks out for 25 goals.

If it falls into place, it's not bad. But I'd be lying if I didn't say that it's 50/50 at best. And that doesn't take into account the defense.

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09-26-2009, 07:11 AM
  #373
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Well that's the mystery of this team - a lot of ifs.

If Gaborik is healthy.

If Kotalik is consistent enough to pop in 25 goals.

If Higgins can take the next step and pop in 25-30 goals.

If Dubinsky becomes a 60-70 point player.

If Prospal still has a 25 goal season in him.

If Listin breaks out for 25 goals.

If it falls into place, it's not bad. But I'd be lying if I didn't say that it's 50/50 at best. And that doesn't take into account the defense.
The most likely of that group concerns Dubi, in my opinion.

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09-26-2009, 03:13 PM
  #374
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The most likely of that group concerns Dubi, in my opinion.
I'd agree and add Higgins to that group. I've always really liked this guy, going back to his Yale days.

If he bring energy, heart and 25 goals, I will be very happy.

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09-26-2009, 03:54 PM
  #375
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I'd agree and add Higgins to that group. I've always really liked this guy, going back to his Yale days.

If he bring energy, heart and 25 goals, I will be very happy.
Me too (well, not back to Yale, just when I saw him with the Habs). When the Rangers announced his contract and Kotalik's, I wanted them reversed. I have a feeling Higgins is going to have a great year... and then we're going to lose him as an UFA over the summer.

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