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What if Lisin surprises?

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Old
09-12-2009, 05:47 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
oh and chosen... heres your answer, if he doesnt get top 6 minutes and he was given a chance to earn a spot playing even top 9 minutes, it will be because he didnt earn it. period. torts wont be stupid at all because he gave lisin the chance to earn those minutes.
You left yourself a small out there with the section I highlighted but you're getting closer to being intellectually honest. Bravo.

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09-12-2009, 06:18 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
The Lisin hype-machine rolls on. Amazing what a YouTube video will do for a player's reputation. A highlight reel will make any player look like a potential superstar. Nobody has provided any information other than that to support this theory that he will become an offensive force.

It's far too early to say what he will be in this league. Frankly, there are plenty of players who are flashy on the offensive side of the puck but can't find a place for themselves on an NHL roster because they're too one-dimensional. Max Afinogenov is a perfect example. Explosive offensive player, but all other facets of the game were pitiful.

I'll agree that Lisin's offensive abilities probably surpass those of a guy like Dubinsky, but the difference is Dubinsky still has a place in the league if he's not scoring goals. Lisin does not.
Your bolded point is spot on. It's up to Lisin to become a more rounded player. I can tell you though (as a Coyotes season ticket holder and a big Lisin fan) that he is gifted offensively, he wins battles for the puck (something that has been in short supply in New York for the last decade) and he can score goals. He has a chance to be special-- 30-40 goals every year -- something that is hard to find in today's game. His offensive skills ain't hype to someone who has seen him constantly play offense at a high level. Having watched at least 70 Ranger and Coyote games (each) last year, there's no mystery to me why the Rangers made this trade.


Here's a blog I worrte when the trade was made.

http://westernhockeyexchange.blogspo...n-friends.html


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09-12-2009, 07:29 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by bobbop View Post
Your bolded point is spot on. It's up to Lisin to become a more rounded player. I can tell you though (as a Coyotes season ticket holder and a big Lisin fan) that he is gifted offensively, he wins battles for the puck (something that has been in short supply in New York for the last decade) and he can score goals. He has a chance to be special-- 30-40 goals every year -- something that is hard to find in today's game. His offensive skills ain't hype to someone who has seen him constantly play offense at a high level. Having watched at least 70 Ranger and Coyote games (each) last year, there's no mystery to me why the Rangers made this trade.


Here's a blog I worrte when the trade was made.

http://westernhockeyexchange.blogspo...n-friends.html

I can appreciate your point of view since you've seen quite a bit of the kid. I personally think 30-40 goals is a little lofty, but again, I haven't seen the amount of Yote's hockey that you have.

I'm certainly not rooting against the kid, quite the opposite actually. If I'm Tortorella, I give Lisin a good long look on Gaborik's other wing. Beyond that, I don't see where he fits in the lineup. Why trade for him at all if he's going to be wasted in the bottom six?

I've used the Prucha example before and I think it applies here still. Guy's like Dawes, Prucha, Lisin, etc, do not belong in the bottom six. They're goal scorers, not energy or checking line guys. Forcing a kid into a role where he's doomed to fail seems like awfully bad asset management.

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09-12-2009, 07:45 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I can appreciate your point of view since you've seen quite a bit of the kid. I personally think 30-40 goals is a little lofty, but again, I haven't seen the amount of Yote's hockey that you have.

I'm certainly not rooting against the kid, quite the opposite actually. If I'm Tortorella, I give Lisin a good long look on Gaborik's other wing. Beyond that, I don't see where he fits in the lineup. Why trade for him at all if he's going to be wasted in the bottom six?

I've used the Prucha example before and I think it applies here still. Guy's like Dawes, Prucha, Lisin, etc, do not belong in the bottom six. They're goal scorers, not energy or checking line guys. Forcing a kid into a role where he's doomed to fail seems like awfully bad asset management.
You are right, Lisin has got to be a top 6 forward. Of course, in Torts' system, it may be more like top 9 with one line designated as the defensive/matchup line (probably Drury) What's great about Lisin is that not only can he fly but he's pretty good size too.

I think it's possible he may get hooked up with Gaborik and never leave his side.

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09-12-2009, 07:55 PM
  #205
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I still want someone to explain to me how Brandon Dubinsky, he of 81 points in his first two NHL seasons, is no better than Blair Betts, and his 48 points in 339 NHL games. Someone? Anyone? Bueller?

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09-12-2009, 08:21 PM
  #206
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I still want someone to explain to me how Brandon Dubinsky, he of 81 points in his first two NHL seasons, is no better than Blair Betts, and his 48 points in 339 NHL games. Someone? Anyone? Bueller?
Youll have to consult with crossbar on that one, since hes literally the only person in the world that thinks that.

While he tries to justify that wild comparison, I'd also like to hear why he thinks Michal Rozsival should be working at a McDonalds instead of playing NHL hockey.

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09-12-2009, 09:37 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Youll have to consult with crossbar on that one, since hes literally the only person in the world that thinks that.

While he tries to justify that wild comparison, I'd also like to hear why he thinks Michal Rozsival should be working at a McDonalds instead of playing NHL hockey.
well games played means little when betts is playing 4th line minutes with orr on his wing. thats kinda obvious.

and the comparison to betts was not meant to be a slam against dubinsky really. im just not that impressed with his lobster claw hands and his hockey sense which i think is lacking. ill say it again, to me hes a 3rd line checking centerman right now with limited offensive skills.

oh and for the record, sine ive taken some shots about my hockey acumen, i have center ice, i watch alot of games, especially west coast games that i dvr and so ive seem quite abit of lisin. i was watching alot of yotes games to see prucha and dawes end of last year and noticed lisin and actually liked the kids raw speed and pure talent. hes the kind of player that makes you take notice.

also, my family knows dustin browns family so i watch alot of kings games. the kid and his dad were in my home alot back when my son played syr stars with him.

more importantly, i know a ton of hockey people in upstate ny and trust what they tell me about prospects and ahl players. lisin comes very well recommended from some very accomplished hockey people.

and i never said blowzsitall should work at mcdonalds. he should play hockey, just not for us at 5 mil per.

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09-12-2009, 10:49 PM
  #208
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really well written piece about lisin from an informed yotes fan. with over 14,000 posts.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=663242&page=8

This is really simple;

The Coyotes got the lesser talent


Things like face offs, defense and two-way play can be coached, to a certain degree. "Korpedo" is from Finland, where young hockey players are expected to be a two-way player from the start. Lisin comes from a whole different school of hockey, and the coaching staff never bothered to adjust him to the NA game. What cannot be coached, however, is raw talent and Lisin is lightning in a bottle. He was, and still is, extremely exciting. Give him the puck, and watch him go. The problem was that in the limited playing time he got, he had poor line mates who could never control the puck. And in games that he did score, he took over, and then was subsequently scratched the next game.

There are times to be philosophical in your discipline, but scratching a Russian who is teething on the NA game (and has very little confidence) after he has a great game is not exactly smart. Lisin is expected to be a dynamic player, not Hanzal on D. If he does his job ie score, he should be rewarded with ice time. I feel bad for Lisin, and for the fans, that he never got a fair shake here in Phoenix. I'm not so sure Torts will be patient with him, either.

Given the right coaching, line mates and patience, he could be a 40 or 50 goal scorer. He has the raw talent. But again, in this day and age, teams are less likely to be so accomodating to Russians when they can more or less have a Canadian or American be nearly as good offensively and whole lot less of a headache.

I don't need to remind everyone of the vast differences within this organization with regards to how players are treated. Case in point; Kyle Turris. In our quest to find that Toews like leader on the ice, KT was rushed and given the best treatment possible. If anything, it should be reversed. The chosen one KT should have to work for everything, and Lisin should be given the helping hand.

Lisin put in the work to shape up, physically, and stuck around in the AHL waiting for his chance. Do not question his heart or desire. He has every right to ask for a 1 way contract after the way he was treated here in Phoenix. I don't think he will explode in NY, unless given some top 6 time. While that may make the trade a wash or a "meh" move, it does not make it acceptable. I was not aware we were so loaded with offensive talent that we can spare players like Lisin.


Korpikoski is not why Coyote fans should be miffed about this trade. He will be a solid, if unspectacular, player. Boedker minus the game breaking abilities. That's just how Finns are. Coyote fans, rather, should be pissed about how management to date has bungled prospects and almost all of that goes onto Gretzkys shoulders. FOGs wrenched up the farm system for a long period, and they got no respite once they reached the NHL. Remember Sjostrom? His hands died somewhere in Springfield, courtesy of McSorely.

Maloney, despite being one of the top GMs in the league, cannot cure all ills of this franchise. I have faith, however, that Reinsdorf understands this and will hire a great coaching staff. Lisin will forever serve as a sad reminder of how despite our great drafting, it went all for naught.

and this.

Not really. He said the same thing I did; boom or bust, and he has the raw skill. The whole "run back to Russia" thing is Lisin's way of forcing the issue, and it worked. Either he gets the contract he wants (and therefore NHL ice time) or he gets traded. Good plan on his part, given his treatment here. Korp is more "polished", but the suggestion that he will suddenly be an offensive force is a joke. I'd love to eat my hat on that one... Lets put this into perspective; Korp had the exactly same point totals in the AHL as Kolarik. The difference being Kolarik is a rookie and Korp is a seasoned sophmore.

Enver Lisin was a -13 on the 25th best team that allowed ~40 more goals last season. Korp was a -10 on the 12th best team in the league. This gets even more depressing when you realize NYR had the 6th best GAA avg compared to our 24th ranking. Where is this amazing PK and D ability, supposedly? I roll the dice on the crazy Russian instead of this "meh" trade. The games played differ, sure, but Enver has twice the goals. goals goals goals


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09-13-2009, 12:10 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
really well written piece about lisin from an informed yotes fan. with over 14,000 posts.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=663242&page=8

This is really simple;

The Coyotes got the lesser talent


Things like face offs, defense and two-way play can be coached, to a certain degree. "Korpedo" is from Finland, where young hockey players are expected to be a two-way player from the start. Lisin comes from a whole different school of hockey, and the coaching staff never bothered to adjust him to the NA game. What cannot be coached, however, is raw talent and Lisin is lightning in a bottle. He was, and still is, extremely exciting. Give him the puck, and watch him go. The problem was that in the limited playing time he got, he had poor line mates who could never control the puck. And in games that he did score, he took over, and then was subsequently scratched the next game.

There are times to be philosophical in your discipline, but scratching a Russian who is teething on the NA game (and has very little confidence) after he has a great game is not exactly smart. Lisin is expected to be a dynamic player, not Hanzal on D. If he does his job ie score, he should be rewarded with ice time. I feel bad for Lisin, and for the fans, that he never got a fair shake here in Phoenix. I'm not so sure Torts will be patient with him, either.

Given the right coaching, line mates and patience, he could be a 40 or 50 goal scorer. He has the raw talent. But again, in this day and age, teams are less likely to be so accomodating to Russians when they can more or less have a Canadian or American be nearly as good offensively and whole lot less of a headache.

I don't need to remind everyone of the vast differences within this organization with regards to how players are treated. Case in point; Kyle Turris. In our quest to find that Toews like leader on the ice, KT was rushed and given the best treatment possible. If anything, it should be reversed. The chosen one KT should have to work for everything, and Lisin should be given the helping hand.

Lisin put in the work to shape up, physically, and stuck around in the AHL waiting for his chance. Do not question his heart or desire. He has every right to ask for a 1 way contract after the way he was treated here in Phoenix. I don't think he will explode in NY, unless given some top 6 time. While that may make the trade a wash or a "meh" move, it does not make it acceptable. I was not aware we were so loaded with offensive talent that we can spare players like Lisin.


Korpikoski is not why Coyote fans should be miffed about this trade. He will be a solid, if unspectacular, player. Boedker minus the game breaking abilities. That's just how Finns are. Coyote fans, rather, should be pissed about how management to date has bungled prospects and almost all of that goes onto Gretzkys shoulders. FOGs wrenched up the farm system for a long period, and they got no respite once they reached the NHL. Remember Sjostrom? His hands died somewhere in Springfield, courtesy of McSorely.

Maloney, despite being one of the top GMs in the league, cannot cure all ills of this franchise. I have faith, however, that Reinsdorf understands this and will hire a great coaching staff. Lisin will forever serve as a sad reminder of how despite our great drafting, it went all for naught.

and this.

Not really. He said the same thing I did; boom or bust, and he has the raw skill. The whole "run back to Russia" thing is Lisin's way of forcing the issue, and it worked. Either he gets the contract he wants (and therefore NHL ice time) or he gets traded. Good plan on his part, given his treatment here. Korp is more "polished", but the suggestion that he will suddenly be an offensive force is a joke. I'd love to eat my hat on that one... Lets put this into perspective; Korp had the exactly same point totals in the AHL as Kolarik. The difference being Kolarik is a rookie and Korp is a seasoned sophmore.

Enver Lisin was a -13 on the 25th best team that allowed ~40 more goals last season. Korp was a -10 on the 12th best team in the league. This gets even more depressing when you realize NYR had the 6th best GAA avg compared to our 24th ranking. Where is this amazing PK and D ability, supposedly? I roll the dice on the crazy Russian instead of this "meh" trade. The games played differ, sure, but Enver has twice the goals. goals goals goals
You might want to go back and read the Lisin thread from when he was acquired.


Last edited by bobbop: 09-13-2009 at 12:26 PM.
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09-13-2009, 04:21 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
The Lisin hype-machine rolls on. Amazing what a YouTube video will do for a player's reputation. A highlight reel will make any player look like a potential superstar. Nobody has provided any information other than that to support this theory that he will become an offensive force.

It's far too early to say what he will be in this league. Frankly, there are plenty of players who are flashy on the offensive side of the puck but can't find a place for themselves on an NHL roster because they're too one-dimensional. Max Afinogenov is a perfect example. Explosive offensive player, but all other facets of the game were pitiful.

I'll agree that Lisin's offensive abilities probably surpass those of a guy like Dubinsky, but the difference is Dubinsky still has a place in the league if he's not scoring goals. Lisin does not.

ive seen a fair amount of max.

the sabres fans, by in large, want him gone. hes another russian enigma.

but max has some issues that differ from lisin in that, max has zero hockey sense. he tries hard, hes a good teammate, but his hockey sense is weak. hes the master of the 1 on 3 and he turns pucks over at an alarming rate. hes perhaps the least productive player ive watched in that he works hard but creates little. and he does not use his linemates well at all. his shot is so-so and although he tries at times, he doesnt make much of a consistent effort to get back.

he has skills but he is truly one dimensional.

lisin is bigger, faster, has a better shot, and has a much better hockey iq.

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09-15-2009, 09:30 PM
  #211
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Just wondering what everyone thought after seeing him for a full 60 minutes. For me he played pretty well and his speed was on display and, unlike Prucha, he is able to battle for the puck down low and create opportunities that way as well.

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09-15-2009, 09:49 PM
  #212
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Just wondering what everyone thought after seeing him for a full 60 minutes. For me he played pretty well and his speed was on display and, unlike Prucha, he is able to battle for the puck down low and create opportunities that way as well.
He didnt do anything to make me think he'll be on the roster in 2 weeks.

Far from it, in fact.

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09-15-2009, 10:07 PM
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He didnt do anything to make me think he'll be on the roster in 2 weeks.

Far from it, in fact.
he is a lock

u don't trade Korpikoski who was a lock for a guy who will not play

he's fast and can pop goals

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09-15-2009, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
He didnt do anything to make me think he'll be on the roster in 2 weeks.

Far from it, in fact.
Did nothing to make me change my mind about my dislike of the Korpikoski deal.

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09-15-2009, 10:11 PM
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he is a lock

u don't trade Korpikoski who was a lock for a guy who will not play

he's fast and can pop goals
A lock? That would be a ridiculous thing to say even before Grachev outplayed him tonight.

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09-15-2009, 10:22 PM
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A lock? That would be a ridiculous thing to say even before Grachev outplayed him tonight.
They will not rush Grachev or DelZotto, book it

they have prospects with more minor league experience and they will get in first

Don't get me wrong I think Grachev and DelZotto will be on the team next yr for sure but for now no pt to rush them like some want them too..............They let Staal develop properly and now look how good he is

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09-15-2009, 10:24 PM
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A lock? That would be a ridiculous thing to say even before Grachev outplayed him tonight.
We currently don't have Dubinsky on the team, so one can expect if Dubi isn't there that Grachev AND Lisin might be on the opening night roster.

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09-15-2009, 10:25 PM
  #218
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A lock? That would be a ridiculous thing to say even before Grachev outplayed him tonight.
but, but.... evgeny outplayed arty too.

didnt think arty did all that much either.

grachev clearly stood out. lisin and arty did not.

i wouldnt say lisins a lock but pretty sure hell make the squad .

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09-15-2009, 11:10 PM
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but, but.... evgeny outplayed arty too.

didnt think arty did all that much either.

grachev clearly stood out. lisin and arty did not.

i wouldnt say lisins a lock but pretty sure hell make the squad .
Offensively, yes, defensively no. Anisimov is a well rounded player. His defensive zone coverage looked excellent to me and all I had to track him was a blurry picture on my computer (thanks to the dufuses at NHL Network who sent us the Canadian feed) Grachev was fine. So was Lisin. C'mon it's the first game of the pre-season and they have had all of three days of camp.

The one guy we should all be talking about is Del Zotto. He is starting to look like he could be very special.


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09-15-2009, 11:18 PM
  #220
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Just wondering what everyone thought after seeing him for a full 60 minutes. For me he played pretty well and his speed was on display and, unlike Prucha, he is able to battle for the puck down low and create opportunities that way as well.
I like what I saw tonight. He had a good game. Like you said, he was able to play a physical game. I saw him throw the body around. Unfortunately, he's going to have to put the puck in the net. I know its only the 1st pre-season game. I think he will have a spot on the roster but like Torts has been saying about his players, "its up to them to earn their spot on this team". I really like the way Drury was playing tonight and I was hoping those 2 would get a chance to play together. I want to see him play with an established center or Gaborik.That might open his game up.

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09-16-2009, 01:16 AM
  #221
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
Just wondering what everyone thought after seeing him for a full 60 minutes. For me he played pretty well and his speed was on display and, unlike Prucha, he is able to battle for the puck down low and create opportunities that way as well.
Why's it always gotta come back to Prucha? He's gone now so I'm sure you're happy... let him be in Phoenix. He did pretty well out there getting top 6 minutes. Let him be, no need to beat the dead horse...

As for Lisin, I didn't see a lot out of him but I did like the way that line played. Grachev looked like a beast at times, AA worked well in both zones... if those 2 can work the boards and give Lisin some room... watch out. If Lisin doesn't pop it in, one of the other 2 will slam home the rebound.

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09-16-2009, 01:27 AM
  #222
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Why's it always gotta come back to Prucha? He's gone now so I'm sure you're happy... let him be in Phoenix. He did pretty well out there getting top 6 minutes. Let him be, no need to beat the dead horse...

As for Lisin, I didn't see a lot out of him but I did like the way that line played. Grachev looked like a beast at times, AA worked well in both zones... if those 2 can work the boards and give Lisin some room... watch out. If Lisin doesn't pop it in, one of the other 2 will slam home the rebound.
I brought him up because someone earlier in the thread stated they thought Lisin would be Prucha 2.0 here. I disagreed and I think he showed he brings more than Petr did. And for what it's worth, I liked Prucha.

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09-16-2009, 01:53 AM
  #223
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I totally disagreed with what Leslie said about Lisin, I thought Lisin was miserable from start to finish, i didnt like his game at all..on the flip side I thought Grachev started slow, but finished with a bang...as he always seems to do..he needs to adjust to the style of play, the speed, the intensity, and then watch the eff out.

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09-16-2009, 02:08 AM
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I thought Lisin stated strong and ended average. heh......but overall inferno..im just so glad we can argue things like this again! Welcome back hockey!

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09-16-2009, 02:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYLine24 View Post
I thought Lisin stated strong and ended average. heh......but overall inferno..im just so glad we can argue things like this again! Welcome back hockey!


I'm thankful for the ability to play hockey when I can't watch it. Man w/o having 3-5 games a week of my own to play, I probably would go insane from all the waiting.

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