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Could NYI or DAL be a good fit for J.Finger?

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Old
09-01-2009, 12:12 PM
  #151
Drake1588
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Originally Posted by dybbuk View Post
I misspoke. Unmovable, probably. I meant to say it isn't a teamkiller. It won't hold us back form doing making other moves. And 3 years for a guy in his late twenties isn't a bad term if the salary was lower. It's the opposite of JBlake.
I agree with that. Finger is overpaid, yes, but useful. He's no albatross, and he should not decline. He's just not realistic trade bait either, for the foreseeable future.

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09-01-2009, 12:15 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Drake1588 View Post
I agree with that. Finger is overpaid, yes, but useful. He's no albatross, and he should not decline. He's just not realistic trade bait either, for the foreseeable future.
Only way I see finger going is if we get a forward in a similar situation coming back, but, I don't know if we have need for a forward like that.

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09-01-2009, 12:16 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by bobermay View Post
Bottom Line is:
Finger does have value.

Is he overpaid? YES. He's overpaid by 1 mil, TOPS. He's not a 1-2 mil player like some people think. Finger is better than that...

Will Finger be on the Leafs this season? Likely not. Its not because he's not a skilled defender... its because we are really deep at defense, and we're not going to waste his Salary playing the 3rd pairing role. Also, we don't need a 4th defensive defencman on this team.

Finger really isn't getting enough credit on these boards though... Where is Mess when you need him! .

Finger will either be Traded (For an overpaid forward like Cheechoo) or he will be waived where he'll either be picked up, or sent to the Marlies. It really is a shame to have such a good tallent playing for the Marlies though.
If I were betting, I would aver that the Leafs find a Kaberle trade that makes sense at some point, receive a cracker jack young forward in the deal, and frock Finger to play a more important role on the team.

Just because the Leafs suddenly have a plethora of defensemen, many of whom make a pretty penny, does not mean they will keep the best of the lot and deal/demote the worst, particularly if a market for that player doesn't exist.

It simply means Toronto is liable to deal from a position of strength to fill holes elsewhere on the roster.

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09-01-2009, 12:26 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
With the Isles at a ~$40million payroll, goaltending insurance is just not optimal spending.
If the Isles are on a tight self imposed budget and the salary cap floor at approx $40.8 million - that goaltender insurance could prove to be money well spent.
Biron is a very capable goaltender who may prove to be a desirable commodity at the trade deadline. In the meantime he can provide the Isles with a decent backup.

Back on topic - Finger isn't likely to go anywhere unless it's through waivers and the Leafs pay half of his salary.

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09-01-2009, 12:27 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Drake1588 View Post
If I were betting, I would aver that the Leafs find a Kaberle trade that makes sense at some point, receive a cracker jack young forward in the deal, and frock Finger to play a more important role on the team.

Just because the Leafs suddenly have a plethora of defensemen, many of whom make a pretty penny, does not mean they will keep the best of the lot and deal/demote the worst, particularly if a market for that player doesn't exist.

It simply means Toronto is liable to deal from a position of strength to fill holes elsewhere on the roster.
You have had quite a few good thought out posts in this thread that I agree with.

You have even responded to Jfried's posts in a mature manner which must of been hard to do (well I would have found it hard to).

I agree with the several others in this thread that have stated acquiring Finger does not make sense for the Islanders.


Last edited by The Brazen Head: 09-01-2009 at 12:33 PM. Reason: I spelled the word "the" wrong initially and once I looked up the spelling of it I came back and corrected it.
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09-01-2009, 12:30 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by mcphllp View Post
Fletcher signed Finger.
So, just to show that I am not above being a hypocrite either: When Fletcher made that signing, I defended it on this board. I figured the Leafs were getting themselves a decent #4 dman, and predicted that his salary woudl like a bargain down the road with the rising cap.

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09-01-2009, 12:40 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by dybbuk View Post
I misspoke. Unmovable, probably. I meant to say it isn't a teamkiller. It won't hold us back form doing making other moves. And 3 years for a guy in his late twenties isn't a bad term if the salary was lower. It's the opposite of JBlake.





Our stats that are dictated by the play of our Dmen weren't terrible. They were pretty average. And if you take three shots off a night from TO they'd be the same as SJ who led the league in Shots Against. With our goaltending we'd still of been bad in total goals against.
I don't buy that. I simply don't see stats like "total shots blocked" and "hits" as important as goals against. Leaf let up the most goals in the league and had the worst PK%. That tells us about your defense.

And, I'd also suggest that for a "shots against" total to be meaningful, it has to be corrected for total team offense. If your forwards spend more time with the puck, then you'll have few shots against. The Leafs had the #10 offense in the league last year, yet were in the bottom half of the league in shots against. The only other team that can match that combo is Atl, another team with poor overall defense.

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09-01-2009, 12:43 PM
  #158
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I see your joke but your wrong because that D did not get them Tavares. That D not playing even 1 game together in the entire season is what got them Tavares.
Thank you.

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09-01-2009, 12:48 PM
  #159
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None of those teams would be interested but i think Washington could be they need some good solid defensive d-men and they would be a serious cup threat. i'm not saying Finger would make them a threat but he could be one of some pieces that could. IMO. Also I have nothing against Finger he was good for Toronto last season but with Komi and Beauchemin they've upgraded.

To Toronto:
A decent prospect
3rd rd pick
conditional pick (2nd or 4th-6th based on playoff results)

To Washington:
Jeff Finger
5th rd pick


I don't know about the cap issues but Washington could always dump salary as part of the deal. Nylander seems to have issues with Washington so if burke could get him its a no lose if he's good then they get a top six forward if he sucks burke's said he's not afraid to send people to the minors.

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09-01-2009, 12:50 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by jports18 View Post
None of those teams would be interested but i think Washington could be they need some good solid defensive d-men and they would be a serious cup threat. i'm not saying Finger would make them a threat but he could be one of some pieces that could. IMO. Also I have nothing against Finger he was good for Toronto last season but with Komi and Beauchemin they've upgraded.

To Toronto:
A decent prospect
3rd rd pick
conditional pick (2nd or 4th-6th based on playoff results)

To Washington:
Jeff Finger
5th rd pick


I don't know about the cap issues but Washington could always dump salary as part of the deal. Nylander seems to have issues with Washington so if burke could get him its a no lose if he's good then they get a top six forward if he sucks burke's said he's not afraid to send people to the minors.
Yes, Washington could certainly dump salary. To Toronto. In that deal.

In short, Washington has as dire a cap issue as any team in the league, and Finger is a total non starter, barring Toronto's willingness to take Washington's cap problem child, Michael Nylander. The Capitals are right up against the salary cap.

The likelihood that any team takes on Finger and doesn't send back any salary whatsoever is basically zero.

The number of teams in the NHL either right near the cap, or at their budget ceiling, is greater than 25.

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09-01-2009, 12:51 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Leaf let up the most goals in the league and had the worst PK%. That tells us about your defense.
And that was because Toskala was the worst goalie in the NHL last season.

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09-01-2009, 12:52 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
I don't buy that. I simply don't see stats like "total shots blocked" and "hits" as important as goals against. Leaf let up the most goals in the league and had the worst PK%. That tells us about your defense.

And, I'd also suggest that for a "shots against" total to be meaningful, it has to be corrected for total team offense. If your forwards spend more time with the puck, then you'll have few shots against. The Leafs had the #10 offense in the league last year, yet were in the bottom half of the league in shots against. The only other team that can match that combo is Atl, another team with poor overall defense.
Shots for avg-Shots against avg
TML:+1.4
NYI: -4.6
ATL: -4.6

Lehtonen also had a decent season last year.

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09-01-2009, 12:53 PM
  #163
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OK thank you i didn't know the cap situation

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09-01-2009, 12:53 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Drake1588 View Post
The likelihood that any team takes on Finger and doesn't send back any salary whatsoever is basically zero.
Agreed.

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09-01-2009, 12:53 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by 2fortheshow View Post
You tell me fans.
It has been said his contract is too high...ok, but really as useless as many think.
23 points last year, in 49games....
Is a big guy who plays hard.

What do you think?
This is just basically a Leafs fan trying to move the bad contract of Finger and bring something back in return that can help them up front. You know that Dallas and NYI have no need for finger and his cap hip. Islanders could go trade for Babchuk or sign Seidenberg it would cost them less money wise or trade wise to aquire either one of those Dman who can put up more points than Finger. Finger can not be a mentor for anybody on either of those teams to the young players, can he help sure a puck moving Dman is fine to have but not at the cost he has and the years.

NYI AND DAL say no and move to another type of Dman.

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09-01-2009, 12:53 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by jports18 View Post
To Toronto:
A decent prospect
3rd rd pick
conditional pick (2nd or 4th-6th based on playoff results)

To Washington:
Jeff Finger
5th rd pick
I'm not sure Washington needs defense. Regardless, they are within $1.3 million of the cap, and Nylander has a NMC. He's not going to let anyone put him in the minors. If Toronto took Nylander (or really Nylander would accept the trade to TOR), they'd have to place him on their 23 man roster.

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09-01-2009, 12:55 PM
  #167
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And that was because Toskala was the worst goalie in the NHL last season.
Curtis Joseph and Justin Pogge say hello.

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09-01-2009, 12:59 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by dybbuk View Post
Shots for avg-Shots against avg
TML:+1.4
NYI: -4.6
ATL: -4.6

Lehtonen also had a decent season last year.
That isn't a meanginful stat at all. Bad teams tend to take lots of shots from the outside. The Isles were #20 in Shots for, but only Col had a worse GF/G. The reason for that intersting statistical imbalance is that the Isles pop gun offense took lots of low percentage shots from the point. Pit, in comparison, had relatively few shots for but controlled the puck most of the night and had one of the best offenses in the league.

At the end of the day, you can cook the numbers anyway you want, but the fact still remains: Leafs let up the most goals in the league last year. And, trying to describe team defense as good under those circumstances is nonsensical.

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09-01-2009, 01:04 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
That isn't a meanginful stat at all. Bad teams tend to take lots of shots from the outside. The Isles were #20 in Shots for, but only Col had a worse GF/G. The reason for that intersting statistical imbalance is that the Isles pop gun offense took lots of low percentage shots from the point. Pit, in comparison, had relatively few shots for but controlled the puck most of the night and had one of the best offenses in the league.

At the end of the day, you can cook the numbers anyway you want, but the fact still remains: Leafs let up the most goals in the league last year. And, trying to describe team defense as good under those circumstances is nonsensical.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Are you trying to say we had a good offence last season? We were led by Jason "Let me hit you in the chest from the blue line" Blake. While I agree you can cook numbers any way you want, you did say you wanted to see a 'corrected' number. Or do you want to extrapolate gfg/gfa vs sfa/sfg somehow? If we try hard enough we can come up with insane stats like baseball has.

Trying to say the Leafs had some semblance of even mediocre goaltending last season is nonsensical.

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09-01-2009, 01:12 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by dybbuk View Post
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Are you trying to say we had a good offence last season? We were led by Jason "Let me hit you in the chest from the blue line" Blake. While I agree you can cook numbers any way you want, you did say you wanted to see a 'corrected' number. Or do you want to extrapolate gfg/gfa vs sfa/sfg somehow? If we try hard enough we can come up with insane stats like baseball has.

Trying to say the Leafs had some semblance of even mediocre goaltending last season is nonsensical.
Rather than extrapolating, and cooking numbers, let's agree that the best way to evaluate a team is by how many times the puck actually ends up in the net. I know that is a radical concept, but since the game actually revolves around who scores the most, I think that is a reasonable criteria.

The Leafs had the worst defense in the league last year, they let up the most goals, and had the worst PK. You can write all that off to bad goaltending. But, the year before, when VT was actually quite good with almost the exact same defense, the Leafs were also at the bottom of the league in GA/G. In fact, the Leafs have continually been at the bottom of the league for three seasons with that defense, with different goaltenders, coaches, forward, etc.

Basically, the position that the Leaf's defense was good or even decent is simply not defensible. I'm not saying your goaltending was good - it was brutal. But, your defense wasn't a whole lot better.

And, with regard to offense, I'd also say that what counts is what actually matters is how many times the puck ends up in the net. So, go check the numbers yourself.

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09-01-2009, 01:14 PM
  #171
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Safe to say now that neither Dallas nor the Isles want anything to do with Jeff Finger, and that Burke will have to look elsewhere to dump that horrid contract.

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09-01-2009, 01:33 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by dybbuk View Post
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Are you trying to say we had a good offence last season? We were led by Jason "Let me hit you in the chest from the blue line" Blake. While I agree you can cook numbers any way you want, you did say you wanted to see a 'corrected' number. Or do you want to extrapolate gfg/gfa vs sfa/sfg somehow? If we try hard enough we can come up with insane stats like baseball has.

Trying to say the Leafs had some semblance of even mediocre goaltending last season is nonsensical.
Although I'm fairly sure it's not an opinion you hold, I nonetheless find this post extremely funny considering the number of Leafs fans who will be all too happy to quickly remind you that they were #10 in scoring last year if ever you dare question their offense.

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09-01-2009, 02:05 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Given that the Isles have no payroll room, and seven dmen under one-way deals (none of whom Finger is much of an upgrade over), I'd say that the chance of the Isles wanting him are zero.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Rather than extrapolating, and cooking numbers, let's agree that the best way to evaluate a team is by how many times the puck actually ends up in the net. I know that is a radical concept, but since the game actually revolves around who scores the most, I think that is a reasonable criteria.

The Leafs had the worst defense in the league last year, they let up the most goals, and had the worst PK. You can write all that off to bad goaltending. But, the year before, when VT was actually quite good with almost the exact same defense, the Leafs were also at the bottom of the league in GA/G. In fact, the Leafs have continually been at the bottom of the league for three seasons with that defense, with different goaltenders, coaches, forward, etc.

Basically, the position that the Leaf's defense was good or even decent is simply not defensible. I'm not saying your goaltending was good - it was brutal. But, your defense wasn't a whole lot better.

And, with regard to offense, I'd also say that what counts is what actually matters is how many times the puck ends up in the net. So, go check the numbers yourself.
all good points no doubt, but tell me then why Montreal allowed more shots per game then did the Leafs but gave up fewer goals...........goaltending perhaps?

check out the link........at the bottom of the article is a chart of comparables and what each guy is paid, Finger isn't that o/p'd nor is he a horrible dman as some are making him out to be

Quote:
As you can see from the table, Fingerís numbers arenít that horrible in comparison to his NHL peers. He blocks more shots per game than every player other than his former teammate in Colorado, Brett Clark. He makes more hits per game than every player other than Seabrook, Commodore, Stuart, and Orpik. He gets more points per game than every player on the list other than Burns, Zidlicky, Suter, Kuba, Blake, and Bieksa. How many of you knew he produced at a level comparable to Sami Salo - without the time on the power play?
http://leafs.hockeyanalysis.com/2009...ng-the-finger/

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09-01-2009, 02:09 PM
  #174
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all good points no doubt, but tell me then why Montreal allowed more shots per game then did the Leafs but gave up fewer goals...........goaltending perhaps?
When exactly did anybody in this thread argue that the Leafs had goaltending that was better than the Habs or even decent goaltending? In short, what is your point?


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Originally Posted by therealkoho View Post
check out the link........at the bottom of the article is a chart of comparables and what each guy is paid, Finger isn't that o/p'd nor is he a horrible dman as some are making him out to be



http://leafs.hockeyanalysis.com/2009...ng-the-finger/
Nobody made Finger out to be a "horrible dman." Once again, you are refuting an argument nobody made.

The table you show here is the strongest evidence I've seen yet that Finger is grossly overpaid. There is no way that Finger is as good as Bieksa, Seabrook, Orpik, Burns, etc. He is not even close to being in the same league as those players but makes the same coin.

You can play with numbers anyway you want, but comparing Finger to Bieksa and Burns is not going to fly.


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09-01-2009, 02:30 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by therealkoho View Post
Quote:
As you can see from the table, Fingerís numbers arenít that horrible in comparison to his NHL peers. He blocks more shots per game than every player other than his former teammate in Colorado, Brett Clark. He makes more hits per game than every player other than Seabrook, Commodore, Stuart, and Orpik. He gets more points per game than every player on the list other than Burns, Zidlicky, Suter, Kuba, Blake, and Bieksa. How many of you knew he produced at a level comparable to Sami Salo - without the time on the power play?
Perception plays a huge role in this. When the most complimentary thing you can say about a player is "arenít that horrible" then you have a lot of work to change people's minds.
I personally don't think Finger is as bad as some people think but his contract is a hard one to move with so many teams under difficult budgetary and cap constraints.
He's going to be difficult to move but I think he could be a decent pickup for a team via waivers(with the Leafs picking up half of his salary)

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