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Old
09-01-2009, 03:55 AM
  #1
haf
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Vishnevsky

Is this kid really ready for top pairing minutes? Second pairing minutes? if he is, what do we do with our d? we have so many guys.

Daley seems ready to break out, despite the many complaints from this board. Does robidas go? Grossman? Niskanen? Niskanen would bring a hefty return I would think.

Could we trust Niskanen and Vishnevsky as a second pairing and Daley/Fistric as a first? Robidas/Grossman as a third? Skrastins out? 7th? I would LOVE to see a hefty shot return to our point.

AGHGHG! defensemen moves thwarting my sleep.

I must admit, Heika's profiles have me suckered in. I am excited. The coaching change and all of the young kids, ready to bust into the nhl, have my mind racing.

what the hell is this team?

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09-01-2009, 05:00 AM
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Dominic Roussel
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Niskanen and Vishnevskiy is one pairing I NEVER want to see; at least not for quite a few years.

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09-01-2009, 03:04 PM
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Kritter471
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I think Vishnevskiy should start the season getting top-end minutes in the AHL and learning under the Stars system. Make him the first injury call up over Hutchinson.

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09-01-2009, 04:02 PM
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piqued
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I think when he gets called up will also depend on which player gets injured. If it's someone offensively oriented like Robidas/Daley/Niskanen then it becomes much more likely IV gets the call. It probably needs to also be at least a month into the season so that he's had some time to establish his level of play in Austin.

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09-01-2009, 06:40 PM
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Kritter471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piqued1457 View Post
I think when he gets called up will also depend on which player gets injured. If it's someone offensively oriented like Robidas/Daley/Niskanen then it becomes much more likely IV gets the call. It probably needs to also be at least a month into the season so that he's had some time to establish his level of play in Austin.
Very good points. They wouldn't bring him up to replace Skrastins or Fistric.

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09-01-2009, 10:16 PM
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glovesave_35
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Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
Very good points. They wouldn't bring him up to replace Skrastins or Fistric.
I agree with piqued's sentiments, especially about allowing him to establish himself in Austin. But, also I think that if he shows his defense to be of a high enough level, then it really doesn't matter which of our defensemen was injured for him to get the call. There aren't really any "defensive defensemen" that would get the call over IV. Hutchinson is an older, lesser talented version of Vishnevskiy...he's an offensive-type defenseman. If he gets the call over IV, it would probably have more to do with the organization not wanting to disturb the prospect's development if it would just be for a game or two. I kind of get the impression that if they bring Vishnevskiy up, it will be with the opportunity to stick.

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09-02-2009, 08:07 PM
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Do you think Niskanen's development was harmed by coming to the NHL straight from college? I don't think so. If Vish shows he's ready in camp, then play him I say and deal with the fallout after. We are going to have to move some defenseman sooner or later. Let the play of the youngsters dictate when.

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09-02-2009, 09:57 PM
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Kritter471
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*raises hand about Niskanen's development being harmed*

I know I'm alone in the corner on that, but I think he'd have been much better served by learning the mental part of the game (where I feel he struggles now) in the minors, not necessarily straight after camp because he started great, but when he started to struggle after Zubov went down with the injury. Now, that wasn't an option because everyone was hurt at the time, but I think he wouldn't be making some of the mistakes he continues to make now.

Again, I know I'm alone in my corner on that, but I can live with that.

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09-02-2009, 11:10 PM
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BigG44
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Now for the whole story without leaving out pertinent information:

Niskanen was solid with Zubov his rookie year. After Zubov went down, Niskanen scored 6 points (1G-5A) and was +4 in 17 games. He was solid. Niskanen then sustained a foot injury but returned 3 games later. He eventually missed another game with a back injury (probably caused by compensating for an injured foot). Matt Niskanen was unaware of the full extent of the injury and played the remainder of the season on a fractured ankle that required surgery after the playoffs.

At the beginning of last season (October and November), Matt Niskanen was pretty terrible. He suffered a sophomore slump. It happens. That’s why there’s a cute name for it. However, Niskanen rebounded to not only become Dallas’ most dangerous defensemen, he was 15th in the league in defensive ES scoring.

Niskanen could not go to the AHL without clearing waivers to start the year. He couldn’t go to the AHL after the injury in 2008 because Dallas didn’t have any viable options left with Zubov and Boucher on the shelf and Grossman and Fistric already in the NHL.

Niskanen is not a perfect defenseman by any stretch of the imagination, but he’s clearly Dallas top defensive threat. So by not ignoring the best aspect of Niskanen’s game (the offense) and factoring in a pretty significant injury, Matt Niskanen has been pretty damn good. 4 months (Mar-April 08 and Oct-Nov 09) he was a defensive liability.

EDIT: Surgery comment bugged me because I thought I could have that wrong. He did have a fracture that hassled him the rest of the season, but surgery was not required.


Last edited by BigG44: 09-02-2009 at 11:39 PM.
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Old
09-03-2009, 03:48 AM
  #10
Kritter471
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I know he couldn't go to the AHL last year without waivers. That's why I didn't mention that he should have. And I even said that I know he didn't go down in 07/08 since the Stars were so damn depleted on the blueline after about December 07.

He was still not good in his own end. If he's so hurt as to be ineffective at the nominal part of playing defense, then he needed to sit (when was it Suprenaut got fired? There were some fairly bad mis-management of injuries in the 06-08 stretch, three of them on defense) or play really minimal minutes. They ended up scratching him for parts of the playoff run when they had the bodies, IIRC, so playing him as much as they did was out of necessity more than anything. It doesn't change that he was not good.

So yes, I'm very aware of why he didn't go down. But I still think he would be a much better player now with some AHL time in his past. His offense is great, but he still is below average to bad in his own end and has some kinks I think could have been ironed out had he had the opportunity to play big minutes in the AHL. Sydor did not help those matters at all, but it was a case of two bads making a worse, not one abysmal making both bad.

And it's not just Niskanen, lest you think I'm picking on him (you would never think that, right?). I think a year in the AHL is critical for the development of every player except the most elite talents. It allows them to make mistakes, to get ice time, to learn under the team's coaching staff and system (and the team to learn the player's strengths and weaknesses), to get physically stronger and bulk up, to adjust to the length of season and/or the ice size, to do a lot of the developing that is best done in a situation where it doesn't kill the player's confidence and it doesn't hurt the big club.

Vishnevskiy didn't get the benefit of learning the Stars system last year, and he's not a guy like Grossman or Fistric who fits well in a 5/6 role at the beginning and can grow into a better player through that experience. He's a skill guy who needs experience in high-minute and special-teams situations, because that's where his value will be greatest with the big club. He's actually pretty similar to Niskanen, in that regard, and it's why I think he'll really benefit from some significant time in Austin.

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09-03-2009, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
And it's not just Niskanen, lest you think I'm picking on him (you would never think that, right?). I think a year in the AHL is critical for the development of every player except the most elite talents. It allows them to make mistakes, to get ice time, to learn under the team's coaching staff and system (and the team to learn the player's strengths and weaknesses), to get physically stronger and bulk up, to adjust to the length of season and/or the ice size, to do a lot of the developing that is best done in a situation where it doesn't kill the player's confidence and it doesn't hurt the big club.

Vishnevskiy didn't get the benefit of learning the Stars system last year, and he's not a guy like Grossman or Fistric who fits well in a 5/6 role at the beginning and can grow into a better player through that experience. He's a skill guy who needs experience in high-minute and special-teams situations, because that's where his value will be greatest with the big club. He's actually pretty similar to Niskanen, in that regard, and it's why I think he'll really benefit from some significant time in Austin.
I won't disagree that AHL seasoning benefits most prospects. I will disagree with the broadness of your statement that every player except the most elite prospects should absolutely spend a whole season there. He had some regular season games and a playoff run, followed by a summer to digest the differences he noticed in the NCAA style of play and the AHL. He did that, came to camp and blew the coaching staff away. Yes, Grossman's injury opened up a spot for him to slide into, but the track record of the Stars in the past has been to make a minor trade and plug in a veteran. But they didn't. They thought Niskanen was the best player for the job, even though they knew there would be some kinks to work out, and that they were starting his progression toward a situation where he would have to clear waivers to be sent down. He had some bumps along the way, bumps that wouldn't have all been smoothed over with a year or two or three in the minors. And he didn't just get by. For the most part, he impressed.

I find your logic on Vishnevskiy's situation somewhat flawed. There is nothing that says Vish can't be a 5/6 d-man AND play special teams (we should just say what we mean though...Power Play). I personally feel Vishnevskiy's ceiling is very high. Hopefully he turns out to be an every situation stud. But, he could also just be a PP specialist. The league is littered with guys who play 15-18 mins/gm who are fixtures on their teams' power plays. So, just because we would like Vishnevskiy to step back into the NHL ready to play 23 mins/gm and be an all-around badass, his being up here and helping the PP won't hurt the team, nor will it hurt his overall development. We should also remember the Russian factor here. He has put in good time in NA already, and if he starts to feel that he isn't really wanted by his NHL team, the pull of the mother land, both monetarily and personally may be too much to ignore.

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09-03-2009, 07:52 PM
  #12
hairylikebear
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IV is fairly Americanized by now. I don't think he's a threat to bolt to the KHL. It's really difficult to doubt his loyalty at all.

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09-03-2009, 08:11 PM
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BigG44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
I find your logic on Vishnevskiy's situation somewhat flawed. There is nothing that says Vish can't be a 5/6 d-man AND play special teams (we should just say what we mean though...Power Play). I personally feel Vishnevskiy's ceiling is very high. Hopefully he turns out to be an every situation stud. But, he could also just be a PP specialist. The league is littered with guys who play 15-18 mins/gm who are fixtures on their teams' power plays. So, just because we would like Vishnevskiy to step back into the NHL ready to play 23 mins/gm and be an all-around badass, his being up here and helping the PP won't hurt the team, nor will it hurt his overall development. We should also remember the Russian factor here. He has put in good time in NA already, and if he starts to feel that he isn't really wanted by his NHL team, the pull of the mother land, both monetarily and personally may be too much to ignore.
Daley developed as a bottom pair defenseman, and he wasn't considered a strong defensive player either. The main difference was Daley never got PP time.

If Vishnevskiy is not getting the PP time like you mentioned in the NHL though, there is no reason for him to be up here yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hairylikebear View Post
IV is fairly Americanized by now. I don't think he's a threat to bolt to the KHL. It's really difficult to doubt his loyalty at all.
No one's questioning his loyalty, and a European player returning to Europe isn't being disloyal.

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09-04-2009, 01:08 AM
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Kritter471
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Again, I get why Niskanen made the team out of camp and I understand why the situation meant he couldn't go down. But I still think he would have benefited from AHL time in the latter half of that season/beginning of 08/09 had the situations been different. You may disagree, but I am of the firm belief that guys learn better when they get big minutes in less pressured situations (i.e. in situations where they're up against guys of or below their skill level).

And I, too, think Vishnevskiy has a lot of potential. I think the best way for him to realize that potential is to be exposed to a lot more situations and minutes in the Stars' system in the AHL. He's not going to get comfortable in the situations where he needs to get comfortable by being a No. 6 guy in general and on the second or third PP unit on special teams.

Now, once he's gotten a few months there and the right role opens up, however it opens up, at the NHL level (he's already had a full year of general AHL experience, so this is more about the Stars' system and what his role would be with the NHL club), then go ahead and bring him up. But assuming the defensemen end up in their projected roles, he'll be much better served starting the season in Austin.

And I consider Daley and Vishnevskiy very different styles. Daley is a speed demon and can create offense off of a rush, but he's not really a playmaker. Vishnevskiy appears to be more of a Zubov-style playmaker and power play quarterback. Different roles, different skillsets and different ways to develop them.

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