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What Ever Happened To Loyalty ?

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Old
09-05-2009, 08:09 AM
  #26
Roxor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCH View Post
What difference does that make?

Gainey brought the contract in. At the end of the day whether it was Gainey's signing or not, thats 7.4 million off the habs cap space each year for the next 5 years. He had to be drunk or stoned out of his mind when he made that deal!
Well we probably wouldnt have the team we have right now if he wouldnt have done that...

Cammalleri said a big reason he signed here is because of that...so no gomez = no camm nor gionta.

We would have an amazing lineup, there wouldnt be any debates as for who is the on the 1st line between camm or kost, it would be more between pacioretty and tender, which isnt comforting to me

that being said, he is overpaid, but what can you do

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09-05-2009, 08:18 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Roxor View Post
Well we probably wouldnt have the team we have right now if he wouldnt have done that...

Cammalleri said a big reason he signed here is because of that...so no gomez = no camm nor gionta.

We would have an amazing lineup, there wouldnt be any debates as for who is the on the 1st line between camm or kost, it would be more between pacioretty and tender, which isnt comforting to me

that being said, he is overpaid, but what can you do
Cammalleri still would have signed here, we were the highest bidder and that was the real reason. Not because some second line center was brought in.I would have Kept Koivu, Higgins and McDonagh. Thats basically what we lost to bring in the worst contract in the league. I don't believe Gomez is better at the same contract, let alone having to pay him twice the $$ Koivu got.
No Gionta? Who cares.. we would have kept Kovalev who is better and the 2 year deal is much much better than the 5 years to Gionta.

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Old
09-05-2009, 08:46 AM
  #28
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I can't believe that this question is being asked on this board! How many days go by without someone suggesting a trade, or free agent signing? Is that being loyal?

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Old
09-05-2009, 08:49 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by TheCH View Post
Cammalleri still would have signed here, we were the highest bidder and that was the real reason. Not because some second line center was brought in.I would have Kept Koivu, Higgins and McDonagh. Thats basically what we lost to bring in the worst contract in the league. I don't believe Gomez is better at the same contract, let alone having to pay him twice the $$ Koivu got.
No Gionta? Who cares.. we would have kept Kovalev who is better and the 2 year deal is much much better than the 5 years to Gionta.
That's not true. Toronto offered him more money and he turned it down to play with the Habs and particularly Gomez.

Also, the trade for Gomez is not nearly as bad as people make it seem. The only real asset we have was higgins and to he honest he didn't seem like he was motivated to be here all last season as his attitude really sucked and it showed in his performance. Then eveyone talks about McDonaugh like he was the second coming of Bobby Orr. Firstly he didn't want to turn pro this year as the Habs asked him to, secondly he only has "potential" at this point. Last u checked that doesn't win you hockey games. Gomez, is a truly talented player and apart from his horrible contract actual enabled Gainey to sign a slew of other talented players. You also have to consider that the Habs would have paid more for Gomez had they signed him as a UFA anyway, besides, why does everyone care how much players make? It's the GMs problem if they don't pan out and there's always ways to get rid of the contract anyways i.e. waivers, trade, buy outs, minors, foreign leaugues etc.

As for this "loyality" thread, why use Schneider as an example out of all the Habs that left anyways?

The way I see it, players are comodities that are paid (very well) for thier services to fit into and produce for thier team. If they no longer dt into those plans and need to he released or traded I hve no problem with that reguardless of who the player is as long as the assets coming back are equal or better in value. Sentimentality has NO place in sports and anyone who thinks otherwise must still believe in Santa and the Easter bunny. This isn't pond hockey in your backyard where you HAVE to pick your best friend first to play with or you'll hurt his feelings. This is a multi billion dollar business, and the lack of loyality goes both ways.

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Old
09-05-2009, 09:12 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Loyalty?The team needs to be loyal but the minute the players can earn more they **** off?Look at Komi after everything the Habs did for him?And Kovalev who was offered the same money as Ottawa but decided to wait and see if he could get more?Goes both ways,it's business
That's the best explanation right there.

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09-05-2009, 09:14 AM
  #31
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The Schneider example is a terrible one to support a rant about loyalty.

Schneider came to this team purely as a rental. Everybody knew this at the time of the trade.

Schneider produced well on the PP and played with great heart, helping the Habs make it to the playoffs. That is what the Habs gained from the trade. Schneider's good play also improved his personal situation. Had he stayed in Atlanta last year, odds are he would have continued to struggle. He probably would have ended up retired this season (like Boucher), or been offered a tryout (like Sydor). However, the move to Montreal gave him the opportunity to land a nice contract on a good team.

In the end, the Schneider trade helped both the Habs and Schneider in the end.

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Old
09-05-2009, 10:06 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by TheCH View Post
Cammalleri still would have signed here, we were the highest bidder and that was the real reason. Not because some second line center was brought in.I would have Kept Koivu, Higgins and McDonagh. Thats basically what we lost to bring in the worst contract in the league. I don't believe Gomez is better at the same contract, let alone having to pay him twice the $$ Koivu got.
No Gionta? Who cares.. we would have kept Kovalev who is better and the 2 year deal is much much better than the 5 years to Gionta.
We got younger, and faster...it remains to be seen if we got better.....We also got alot more durable with the guys brought in. Come on, last year was a disaster, and the leadership group was held accountable this offseason....it was time for these guys to move on, and this is coming from a big Koivu,Kovy fan...

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Old
09-05-2009, 10:19 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
We got younger, and faster...it remains to be seen if we got better.....We also got alot more durable with the guys brought in. Come on, last year was a disaster, and the leadership group was held accountable this offseason....it was time for these guys to move on, and this is coming from a big Koivu,Kovy fan...
Sure, you can move on. But be smart when you do it. Don't just throw around stupid amounts of money to players who aren't worthy which will handcuff you in the future.

Gainey was stupid, plain and simple.

Koivu+Higgins+McDonagh >>>>>>> Gomez. Not to mention 3 of those combined are much cheaper!!

Kovalev >> Gionta. Not only is he a better player, but he is on a much less risky contract.

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Old
09-05-2009, 10:29 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by TheCH View Post
Sure, you can move on. But be smart when you do it. Don't just throw around stupid amounts of money to players who aren't worthy which will handcuff you in the future.

Gainey was stupid, plain and simple.

Koivu+Higgins+McDonagh >>>>>>> Gomez. Not to mention 3 of those combined are much cheaper!!

Kovalev >> Gionta. Not only is he a better player, but he is on a much less risky contract.
Sometimes ya just gotta agree to disagree...as much as I liked Kovy, he floated more in a game than Gionta will in practice...As a huge fan of Koivu's, it was time to go.....Gomez is younger and faster...

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Old
09-05-2009, 10:56 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
Sometimes ya just gotta agree to disagree...as much as I liked Kovy, he floated more in a game than Gionta will in practice...As a huge fan of Koivu's, it was time to go.....Gomez is younger and faster...
Head to head, Gomez may be slightly better, but Koivu is a 10x better bang for your buck. $$$ is a major factor in a cap world.

The habs are going to already have cap issues next year because of this which is why there are so many "trade hammer" threads to free up salary. Fact is, Gainey should have never put the team in such a financially binding position to begin with. If you want to pay out mad money, don't do it with the likes of Gomez and Gionta for gods sake! There is no denying that they are good players, but they are each overpayed by 2 million per year. Not worth it!

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Old
09-05-2009, 11:54 AM
  #36
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There are only a few guys that have taken discounts to play. Brodeur is the only one that comes to mind...he has been underpaid considerably when you look at the other goalie salaries out there, but Brodeur is obviously happy where he is so he is willing to take less to stay.

Nowadays though, loyalty is pretty much pointless to talk about for most players. I loved it when Forsberg refused to play for Detroit because of all those wars he was in - at least that's what I read anyway.

Times have changed though...it's not like it was before where guys genuinely hated to play each other...Boston comes close though - you can tell they hate us a lot, but then Begin goes there so go figure.

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Old
09-05-2009, 12:36 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by TheCH View Post
What difference does that make?

Gainey brought the contract in. At the end of the day whether it was Gainey's signing or not, thats 7.4 million off the habs cap space each year for the next 5 years. He had to be drunk or stoned out of his mind when he made that deal!
How about waiting to see how he'll perform. If he hits the 80ish pt mark, it won't be that bad.

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Old
09-05-2009, 12:41 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by TheCH View Post
Head to head, Gomez may be slightly better, but Koivu is a 10x better bang for your buck. $$$ is a major factor in a cap world.

The habs are going to already have cap issues next year because of this which is why there are so many "trade hammer" threads to free up salary. Fact is, Gainey should have never put the team in such a financially binding position to begin with. If you want to pay out mad money, don't do it with the likes of Gomez and Gionta for gods sake! There is no denying that they are good players, but they are each overpayed by 2 million per year. Not worth it!
2M overpaid for Gomez, sure maybe. But if Ryder gets 4M, Gionta isn't worth a penny less.

Koivu and Kovalev are gone. Had the great Mtl Loving Kovalev agreed to the same money here in Mtl, he'd still be with us. But he decided to be greedy and wait. Now he's in Ottawa but says his heart is in Mtl...boohoo.

There is no thread that suggest to trade Hammer to free up room.
Any trade concerning Hammer is to create space for Vinny or someone else.

We're fine in terms of cap and if you don't engage yourself you won't get any players.

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Old
09-05-2009, 12:58 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
2M overpaid for Gomez, sure maybe. But if Ryder gets 4M, Gionta isn't worth a penny less.

Koivu and Kovalev are gone. Had the great Mtl Loving Kovalev agreed to the same money here in Mtl, he'd still be with us. But he decided to be greedy and wait. Now he's in Ottawa but says his heart is in Mtl...boohoo.

There is no thread that suggest to trade Hammer to free up room.
Any trade concerning Hammer is to create space for Vinny or someone else.

We're fine in terms of cap and if you don't engage yourself you won't get any players.
Also, what 60 points players get 3 millions on the UFA market nowadays?

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Old
09-05-2009, 01:01 PM
  #40
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Nothing like a habs fan in denial. You guys have no issues poking fun when another team signs a bad contract, but when is comes to Gomez and Gionta you'll defend them tooth and nail. Reality is they are among the worst contracts in the league. Sure, you can name some other bad contracts out there signed by stupid gm's. But that doesn't excuse Gainey, that just puts him in the class of gm's that lead their team nowhere!

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09-05-2009, 01:13 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by TheCH View Post
Nothing like a habs fan in denial. You guys have no issues poking fun when another team signs a bad contract, but when is comes to Gomez and Gionta you'll defend them tooth and nail. Reality is they are among the worst contracts in the league. Sure, you can name some other bad contracts out there signed by stupid gm's. But that doesn't excuse Gainey, that just puts him in the class of gm's that lead their team nowhere!
Every team has bad contracts...ask any fan of any team...

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Old
09-05-2009, 01:34 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by TheCH View Post
Sure, you can move on. But be smart when you do it. Don't just throw around stupid amounts of money to players who aren't worthy which will handcuff you in the future.

Gainey was stupid, plain and simple.

Koivu+Higgins+McDonagh >>>>>>> Gomez. Not to mention 3 of those combined are much cheaper!!

Kovalev >> Gionta. Not only is he a better player, but he is on a much less risky contract.
So you would have kept the same team and probably whined about Gainey not moving on July 1st.

First off, Koivu might not have signed at the same contract.
Second, Koivu can't be a top center anymore and had we kept him he would have been it again.
Third, Higgins finished on the 4th line last year and didn't seem like he wanted to play here again. I know for a fact that's true.
McDonagh never played one nhl game. We'll see later on if that was a mistake.

Gomez is still a good player, better and younger than Koivu. He has experience playing in defensive systems so I'm sure it'll be a great match with Martin too.

As for Kovalev >> Gionta, that's foolish. On a point comparison, since the lockout they have averaged about the same total. Kovalev has averaged 5pts/y more than Gionta. That's not a huge difference, so if Kovy is worth 5M per year, Gionta isn't far off from it.
Unlike Kovalev, Gionta isn't a puck hog that will kill the chemistry of his line when not on. He also won't be a visitor once every three or four games.


Contracts were excessive, to argue otherwise would be foolish today. But a very needed change was done and that's good.
I'm not in denial or anything, a new season with a new team will start and I'm trying to be positive. You should do the same instead of spinning the same old broken record of Gainey sucking.

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Old
09-05-2009, 02:17 PM
  #43
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Every team has bad contracts...ask any fan of any team...
Thats no excuse to go out and take on the worst contract in the league.

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09-05-2009, 02:43 PM
  #44
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Thats no excuse to go out and take on the worst contract in the league.
Needing a new centerman is.
I'm happier with Gomez's bad contract than with another year of Koivu/Plek.
I'm also happier with Gionta at 5M than Kovalev at about the same price.

Will I still be 50Games into the season?..or after 2years?..4??..maybe, maybe not. Time will tell, but I'm satisfied so far.

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09-05-2009, 04:05 PM
  #45
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Thats no excuse to go out and take on the worst contract in the league.
Tampa has the worst contract in the league, in Mr. Sunshine himself....7.7M for 11-12 years??? Bottom line here is, you will have to wait and see on Gomez's performance...

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Old
09-05-2009, 04:07 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Needing a new centerman is.
I'm happier with Gomez's bad contract than with another year of Koivu/Plek.
I'm also happier with Gionta at 5M than Kovalev at about the same price.

Will I still be 50Games into the season?..or after 2years?..4??..maybe, maybe not. Time will tell, but I'm satisfied so far.
Exactly...not to mention, that in 2 years are new guys will still be playing, and Koivu and Kovy will have retired....

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Old
09-05-2009, 04:41 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Needing a new centerman is.
I'm happier with Gomez's bad contract than with another year of Koivu/Plek.
I'm also happier with Gionta at 5M than Kovalev at about the same price.

Will I still be 50Games into the season?..or after 2years?..4??..maybe, maybe not. Time will tell, but I'm satisfied so far.
You are just satisfied right now because you are excited about seeing something new. Once the novelty of it all wears off and reality is seen, it will be much clearer to you that we will be long term worse off for those 2 contracts.

You want to overpay a guy by 2.5 million, should have gave it to Markov in two seasons. The true hero of this team!
But overpaying a guy by 2.5 million like we are doing with Gomez is insane, that would be the equivalent of giving Markov 10 million per year(because yes right now that guy has a market value of 7.5 for sure). Insane!

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Old
09-05-2009, 05:36 PM
  #48
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the truth is gomez's salary sucks... but most players are overpaid when they hit free agency. we needed a 1st line center cause Koivu wasnt cutting it in that role. no free agent this year fit what we needed, so bob had to trade.


as horrible as his season was last year gomez still managed to finish 29th in scoring amongst centers, in reality NONE of the players ahead of him would be easily aquired. we would have had to give up serious parts of our roster to get any of them. we lost one roster player and a few prospects for a 1st line center. is he the best center, no. however he has cups and was available.

all these marleau, lecavalier deals are pipe dreams.... we got what we could.

as for the gionta deal 5 mil is alot, but id rather have him than kovalev. again, hes a cup winner who should get 55-70pts...

killa cams deal is fair.

players and agents are greedy, there is no loyalty now you teams are forced to overpay. Nash, and a few redwings(lidstrom clause) are the only few that i can think of who recently took SLIGHT pay cuts.

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Old
09-05-2009, 08:17 PM
  #49
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Also, what 60 points players get 3 millions on the UFA market nowadays?
Exactly!

Plekanec who is coming off a 39 point season and is not even a UFA yet is making $2.75M.

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09-05-2009, 08:48 PM
  #50
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Exactly!

Plekanec who is coming off a 39 point season and is not even a UFA yet is making $2.75M.
Yes. Everyone says we overpaid for Gionta, but lets take a look at most 60 points player in the league and they are almost all around 5 millions. IMO, it's not that bad of an amount. It's more about the lenght of the contract that could be a problem. (I love Gionta and i'm glad we locked him long term tho so I could be biased.)

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