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What Ever Happened To Loyalty ?

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Old
09-05-2009, 10:59 PM
  #51
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Mike Komisarek says hi.

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09-06-2009, 12:49 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Habblues View Post
What Ever Happened To Loyality?
It's as hard to find these days as Honesity.

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09-06-2009, 12:59 AM
  #53
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It's as hard to find these days as Honesity.
spellosity, even.

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09-06-2009, 01:03 AM
  #54
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Schneider said he'd be happy to return, but really, what does a soundbite mean? I'm sure he's happy in Vancouver with a contract. I would have loved to see that slapper too and I'm waiting to see what all this fuss is about Spacek, but the more I divorce myself from the emotional rollercoaster of this massive roster change I realize that in 2 months we will already have pledged our allegiance to these newcomers. I don't think Schneider of all people thought he's was getting hosed by Gainey not re-signing him. I would say such people would be named (in order):
- Saku Koivu (don't have to even start on that)
- Alex Kovalev (I can't stand his [Bob's] story about the "time" and the "money alloted" like it's a game of Tetris, even though I'm glad we have Gionta, I can't stop feeling like we should ALSO have Kovy since he seems to want to still be here)
- Alex Tanguay (I'm so tired of people repeating : "he's soft", cuz he actually GOT INJURED? He's a scoring threat every time he's on the ice. You would have thought Bob might notice after giving up so much to get him. He's going to kill with Tampa. The one that got away (i.e. actual french star, since they ARE, lets admit, coveted).
- Dandoullion. Not for their/its talent, but just what they've given. Not naming people I think SHOULD have been signed, just people who might care more than Mathieu Schneider.

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09-06-2009, 01:21 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
Schneider said he'd be happy to return, but really, what does a soundbite mean? I'm sure he's happy in Vancouver with a contract. I would have loved to see that slapper too and I'm waiting to see what all this fuss is about Spacek, but the more I divorce myself from the emotional rollercoaster of this massive roster change I realize that in 2 months we will already have pledged our allegiance to these newcomers. I don't think Schneider of all people thought he's was getting hosed by Gainey not re-signing him. I would say such people would be named (in order):
- Saku Koivu (don't have to even start on that)
- Alex Kovalev (I can't stand his [Bob's] story about the "time" and the "money alloted" like it's a game of Tetris, even though I'm glad we have Gionta, I can't stop feeling like we should ALSO have Kovy since he seems to want to still be here)
- Alex Tanguay (I'm so tired of people repeating : "he's soft", cuz he actually GOT INJURED? He's a scoring threat every time he's on the ice. You would have thought Bob might notice after giving up so much to get him. He's going to kill with Tampa. The one that got away (i.e. actual french star, since they ARE, lets admit, coveted).
- Dandoullion. Not for their/its talent, but just what they've given. Not naming people I think SHOULD have been signed, just people who might care more than Mathieu Schneider.
Kostopoulous as well.

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09-06-2009, 01:29 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
Kostopoulous as well.
It's late. Don't know how I forgot that. DEF right on that one!

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09-06-2009, 02:28 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by TheCH View Post
You are just satisfied right now because you are excited about seeing something new. Once the novelty of it all wears off and reality is seen, it will be much clearer to you that we will be long term worse off for those 2 contracts.

You want to overpay a guy by 2.5 million, should have gave it to Markov in two seasons. The true hero of this team!
But overpaying a guy by 2.5 million like we are doing with Gomez is insane, that would be the equivalent of giving Markov 10 million per year(because yes right now that guy has a market value of 7.5 for sure). Insane!
all you talk about is contract and money... are you one of Molson's accountant or something ?


sport -> entertainment, nothing else...

should care about Gomez salary as much as you do for Madonna, Al Pacino or Celine Dion (for example) salary...

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09-06-2009, 05:29 AM
  #58
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Thats no excuse to go out and take on the worst contract in the league.
The actual worst contract in the league is Lecavalier's, but PLENTY of folks wanted us to take on THAT one!!

Here are some more comparables.

Gomez has to be worth at least as much as Marleau. How much is HE making? $6.3M. Again, Marleau is someone lots of folks here want.

Gomez also got about $1M more than Ryan Smith did when they were both on the market. The Habs bid for Smith and were disappointed not to get him. Clearly Gomez >>> Smith.

Gomez is also >> Briere and is paid about $1M more.

So, after all this, is Gomez overpaid? Perhaps, by about $1M or less, which is approximately the amount we UNDER-paid Cammalleri. Yes, that's right. We UNDERpaid Cammalleri, a prime 27-year-old coming off a 39 goal, 82 point season.

To those who say that Gomez is "a second-line centre", let me remind you that even in last year's "off-year", he still led his team in scoring, and they made the playoffs.

Furthermore, Gomez has 45 points in his last 42 playoff games, and that's a record virtually no one in the whole LEAGUE can beat, never mind one centreman per TEAM.

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09-06-2009, 01:08 PM
  #59
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These new contracts we gave to guys that are generating so much debate can only really be evaluated buy what they end up contributing. Let's see what they do for us at least ONE year before complaining

The only really bad deals are those 10+ year wonders. A lot of those go past the age point where you are stuck with the salary regardless of what happens to them.

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09-06-2009, 01:13 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by TheCH View Post
What difference does that make?

Gainey brought the contract in. At the end of the day whether it was Gainey's signing or not, thats 7.4 million off the habs cap space each year for the next 5 years. He had to be drunk or stoned out of his mind when he made that deal!
Or maybe he was both drunk AND stoned? Oh well, in Bob we trust right? Big contract, but if it were not for that trade some other key UFA's would not have followed. It's nice to have proven winners on the team. Captain Koivu, as must I love the guy, never did have any Cup rings. It was time for a changing of the guard. 5 years is a long time, but really, it's not that bad......7 years is much worse. I am not thrilled about Gionta or Gomez, but at least there will be a solid core in place for years to come.

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09-06-2009, 02:35 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by TheCH View Post
You are just satisfied right now because you are excited about seeing something new. Once the novelty of it all wears off and reality is seen, it will be much clearer to you that we will be long term worse off for those 2 contracts.

You want to overpay a guy by 2.5 million, should have gave it to Markov in two seasons. The true hero of this team!
But overpaying a guy by 2.5 million like we are doing with Gomez is insane, that would be the equivalent of giving Markov 10 million per year(because yes right now that guy has a market value of 7.5 for sure). Insane!
Maybe in 2 or 3years the cap will have gone up and the hit of Gomez although high, won't be that bad anymore.
Markov is signed for 2more years, we'll see after that what happens.

I don't get your negativity. Maybe our team will be great, maybe it won't. You don't know and neither do I.

Without looking at the salaries:
Gomez > Koivu
Gionta > Kovalev
Cammalleri > Tanguay
Moen > Kostopoulos
Spacek > Schneider
Gill > Bouillon/Dandy/Breezer/O'Byrne
Mara < Komi. Although I'm saying this assuming Komi gets his level of play back to the one of 2seasons ago. The only way he'll do that is if he's paired with Kaberle.

So I am happy and have every reason to be. Some salaries given were big overpayments, others not so much or not at all.

Will these salaries still be considered overpayments next year or three years from now??..only time will tell. But even if some are, it doesn't mean our team will be underperforming or in a bad situation cap wise.

Only time will tell, for now be happy with the chance because there's no way to know how anybody will perform.

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09-06-2009, 04:42 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Maybe in 2 or 3years the cap will have gone up and the hit of Gomez although high, won't be that bad anymore.
Markov is signed for 2more years, we'll see after that what happens.

I don't get your negativity. Maybe our team will be great, maybe it won't. You don't know and neither do I.

Without looking at the salaries:
Gomez > Koivu
Gionta > Kovalev
Cammalleri > Tanguay
Moen > Kostopoulos
Spacek > Schneider
Gill > Bouillon/Dandy/Breezer/O'Byrne
Mara < Komi. Although I'm saying this assuming Komi gets his level of play back to the one of 2seasons ago. The only way he'll do that is if he's paired with Kaberle.

So I am happy and have every reason to be. Some salaries given were big overpayments, others not so much or not at all.

Will these salaries still be considered overpayments next year or three years from now??..only time will tell. But even if some are, it doesn't mean our team will be underperforming or in a bad situation cap wise.

Only time will tell, for now be happy with the chance because there's no way to know how anybody will perform.
or... maybe in two years, Hamrlik, Mara, Gill, Metropolit, Laraque salaries will be off the books...

I dont get all the whining about salaries either.

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09-06-2009, 06:47 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
or... maybe in two years, Hamrlik, Mara, Gill, Metropolit, Laraque salaries will be off the books...

I dont get all the whining about salaries either.
this

Moen's 1.5 and Plekanec at 2.75 might be gone too

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09-07-2009, 12:27 PM
  #64
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Well,i`ve read some very good comments,and agree with most .BUT once again even though he lost a step or two,he showed us last year that it WAS possible to take a slap shot from the point and hit the net,now that was refreshing.And to me leadership on D was laking last year but maybe you guys are right ,that the new guys will step it up this season,,,,man i hope so.

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09-07-2009, 12:44 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Gionta > Kovalev
o rly?

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09-07-2009, 02:27 PM
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What Ever Happened To Loyality ? Money ?....Maybe....Sometimes it can be a player dumping a team,or a team dumping a player.But in the case of Matthew Schneider ,he came here last year and saved our buts on D.But this year the Habs don`t as much as offer him a contract ?......This baffles me.....Anyone know something i don`t ,about letting go of a proven Vet ? He showed us he was a leader , but they just let him walk away.....Maybe someone has some insight ?
And we could've just let Plekanec walk and signed Koivu too, our long time captain. Sorry but I'd prefer Koivu @ 500k more even if he is on the decline, over a guy like Plek who has looked like garbage. Quote me if Plek has a 70pt season or something, I'll admit I was wrong about him but honestly even if he plays up to expectations I still would rather have had our captain as the 2nd line C, we could've afforded it. Koivu is like a guarantee 50pt guy with a lot of heart, Pleks may get 70pts he may get 40pts, but regardless Koivu imo always looked like he was playing good hockey. Plekanec simply didn't this last season, Koivu isn't the type to not give 100%.

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09-07-2009, 03:19 PM
  #67
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o rly?
One could argue otherwise, yes.
Skill wise, Kovalev is part of the best in the league. That being said, he rarely shows it and he's aging. He needed a vacation last year before stepping up. His leadership skills and attitude have been questioned since the start of his career as well.

So a younger Gionta, who's a hard worker with a 48G scoring mark, could be better for a team.

In the end, they're pretty equal, but because there's been some type of ''controversy'' almost every year Kovalev played here, I'll go with Gionta.

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09-07-2009, 03:26 PM
  #68
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Thats no excuse to go out and take on the worst contract in the league.
cap space > stanley cup

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09-07-2009, 03:30 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Habblues View Post
What Ever Happened To Loyality ? Money ?.... Maybe.... Sometimes it can be a player dumping a team or a team dumping a player. Anyone know something i don`t about letting go of a proven Vet ?
Well, loyalty hasn't really been a big part of the game, especially in the last handful of decades. Marginal or secondary level players are moved about regularly. Even in the big times of the multi-year Cup teams there were always player changes. I remember the 70's Canadiens teams having new players every year... the same with the Oilers championship teams in the 80's. Only the best of the best stayed on and, even then, that wasn't a certainty.

Players didn't change teams of their own volition until fairly recently (the last couple of decades or so). Free agency has freed up players to seek out better situations for themselves.

Is it better this way than before? Pros & cons I suppose. I'm not going to go into an in-depth explanation from my perspective but, for us as fans, I think it's made things worse. We aren't able to have a consistency of face to our team - by the way, sometimes we don't really want to have a certain face to our team.

For business purposes (owners & players), it's definitely better.

I wouldn't be surprised to see even today's top-end players (Crosby et al.) change teams during the course of their career. The days of the Richards, Beliveaus, etc are gone.

What are the last cases of 'loyalty' on both the team's & player's part? Yzerman, Modano... who else?

So far as I can see, the days of loyalty are gone for good and it saddens me.

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09-07-2009, 03:49 PM
  #70
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What are the last cases of 'loyalty' on both the team's & player's part? Yzerman, Modano... who else?
It looks like Lidstrom and Brodeur might get there too, though you never know. After all, Ray Bourque was 38 when he left Boston.

As for the oft-mentioned Joe Sakic in this context, remember that in 1997 Sakic did "disloyally" sign a monster deal with the Rangers as an RFA that Colorado decided to match. So I guess this guy doesn't count as an example of eternal mutual loyalty after all!

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09-07-2009, 07:23 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
or... maybe in two years, Hamrlik, Mara, Gill, Metropolit, Laraque salaries will be off the books...

I dont get all the whining about salaries either.
They will be. Mara might still be here, but he's a bargain and a smart signing for that deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HEPG24 View Post
this

Moen's 1.5 and Plekanec at 2.75 might be gone too
Pleks more than likely will be. Moen, he's a battler, he actually wins fights. I see him staying here to finish out his contract, unless we're going to miss the playoffs in his final year, then he'll be dealt to a contender.

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09-08-2009, 07:40 AM
  #72
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Well, loyalty hasn't really been a big part of the game, especially in the last handful of decades. Marginal or secondary level players are moved about regularly. Even in the big times of the multi-year Cup teams there were always player changes. I remember the 70's Canadiens teams having new players every year... the same with the Oilers championship teams in the 80's. Only the best of the best stayed on and, even then, that wasn't a certainty.

Players didn't change teams of their own volition until fairly recently (the last couple of decades or so). Free agency has freed up players to seek out better situations for themselves.

Is it better this way than before? Pros & cons I suppose. I'm not going to go into an in-depth explanation from my perspective but, for us as fans, I think it's made things worse. We aren't able to have a consistency of face to our team - by the way, sometimes we don't really want to have a certain face to our team.

For business purposes (owners & players), it's definitely better.

I wouldn't be surprised to see even today's top-end players (Crosby et al.) change teams during the course of their career. The days of the Richards, Beliveaus, etc are gone.

What are the last cases of 'loyalty' on both the team's & player's part? Yzerman, Modano... who else?

So far as I can see, the days of loyalty are gone for good and it saddens me.
Well said and i agree....It is sad....I was hoping to watch Matthew again this year.He is a great leader and that`s why Vancouver picked him up.....our lose.

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09-08-2009, 09:11 AM
  #73
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I will jump into a few points on this thread....

First off, loyalty in sports is a farce. We arent talking 60`s and 70`s, as soon as free agency came to be, agents, and inflated salaries, it meant nothing. Like people have mentioned, its buisness. As soon as Gretzky got traded, i think everyone should realize that at the end of the day, money is all that matters. Singling out guys like Schneider, who did help for 25 games or so, is a joke. Especially when Gainey basically coddled guys like Kovalev all of their time here and he wasnt willing to take a pay cut or sign when we called for him. Or Komisarek who, all of us saw as our captain, who WE voted into the all-star game, who we forgave everytime he made defensive blunders, took almost the same money and went to our rivals. Where is his loyalty?

As for THCH guy with his bashing of Gainey`s moves, in a sense you are right. Gomez and Gionta`s contracts are combursom. IF they dont pan out, they will hand cuff the team for a few years. But, with a healthy farm system, we can always stay competative. At the end of the day, Gomez and Gionta are good, competative hockey players. Are they Elite? No. But nobody out of the market or available via trade is or was. You can argue Gaborik, but he is an injury case. No other teams would have traded their number one centers, which is what we needed. DId you want another year of Koivu and Plekanec?

I understand you are strictly looking at dollar value, but Gomez is an upgrade over Koivu and Plekanec, and to argue that is just ridiculous. I know that last 2 years for him werent great, but he is still fairly young, and will get another chance to prove himself, give him the benefit of the doubt, and stop thinking in terms of dollars and cents.

The Kovalev - Gionta debate is, once again, based on dollar and contract length. There was a love for Kovalev, because he loved the city, he was our most talented player, and was a media darling. But the truth is, he was a floater, a distraction, 36 years old and he played half the games. Why would you even want that for 2 more years? Just because the length is less than Gionta? So lets get worse players on our team because their contracts are shorter in length. Hmm.
Gionta is an overall better player that Kovy. Better skater, can provide leadership on and off the ice, better defensively, and is coachable.

Its sad that because of the salary cap, players and gm`s are constantly evaluated in terms of money. Forget talent, forget what a players worth to a team is. Gomez at 4 mil is a steal, but Gomez at 7 is a LOL- Terrible player. He is still the same player no matter how much he gets. I commend Gainey for being so bold and addressing needs we were lacking in the offseason. Was it perfect? No. But provided what he had available in tradeable assets and money, i think he did the best he could. Once again, the only reason Gomez was available was because Sather overpaid for him. If Gomez was making 5 mil a year, he would have been untouchable. Look around the league and Gomez is a number one center in 13 or 14 teams. The other 16 teams will never trade their number 1 centers, so in that sense, Gainey got the best available.

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09-10-2009, 11:37 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Canadian_Brewtality View Post
I will jump into a few points on this thread....

First off, loyalty in sports is a farce. We arent talking 60`s and 70`s, as soon as free agency came to be, agents, and inflated salaries, it meant nothing. Like people have mentioned, its buisness. As soon as Gretzky got traded, i think everyone should realize that at the end of the day, money is all that matters. Singling out guys like Schneider, who did help for 25 games or so, is a joke. Especially when Gainey basically coddled guys like Kovalev all of their time here and he wasnt willing to take a pay cut or sign when we called for him. Or Komisarek who, all of us saw as our captain, who WE voted into the all-star game, who we forgave everytime he made defensive blunders, took almost the same money and went to our rivals. Where is his loyalty?

As for THCH guy with his bashing of Gainey`s moves, in a sense you are right. Gomez and Gionta`s contracts are combursom. IF they dont pan out, they will hand cuff the team for a few years. But, with a healthy farm system, we can always stay competative. At the end of the day, Gomez and Gionta are good, competative hockey players. Are they Elite? No. But nobody out of the market or available via trade is or was. You can argue Gaborik, but he is an injury case. No other teams would have traded their number one centers, which is what we needed. DId you want another year of Koivu and Plekanec?

I understand you are strictly looking at dollar value, but Gomez is an upgrade over Koivu and Plekanec, and to argue that is just ridiculous. I know that last 2 years for him werent great, but he is still fairly young, and will get another chance to prove himself, give him the benefit of the doubt, and stop thinking in terms of dollars and cents.

The Kovalev - Gionta debate is, once again, based on dollar and contract length. There was a love for Kovalev, because he loved the city, he was our most talented player, and was a media darling. But the truth is, he was a floater, a distraction, 36 years old and he played half the games. Why would you even want that for 2 more years? Just because the length is less than Gionta? So lets get worse players on our team because their contracts are shorter in length. Hmm.
Gionta is an overall better player that Kovy. Better skater, can provide leadership on and off the ice, better defensively, and is coachable.

Its sad that because of the salary cap, players and gm`s are constantly evaluated in terms of money. Forget talent, forget what a players worth to a team is. Gomez at 4 mil is a steal, but Gomez at 7 is a LOL- Terrible player. He is still the same player no matter how much he gets. I commend Gainey for being so bold and addressing needs we were lacking in the offseason. Was it perfect? No. But provided what he had available in tradeable assets and money, i think he did the best he could. Once again, the only reason Gomez was available was because Sather overpaid for him. If Gomez was making 5 mil a year, he would have been untouchable. Look around the league and Gomez is a number one center in 13 or 14 teams. The other 16 teams will never trade their number 1 centers, so in that sense, Gainey got the best available.
Yes your right,Bob did the best he could for what was available......I`m excited to see the Habs this year.Yes i will miss Kovy because of his abilty to be a game breaker and especially for the shootout(which i hate,it`s a team game).But overall i think we`re going to be competitive.

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Old
09-10-2009, 11:49 AM
  #75
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What difference does that make?

Gainey brought the contract in. At the end of the day whether it was Gainey's signing or not, thats 7.4 million off the habs cap space each year for the next 5 years. He had to be drunk or stoned out of his mind when he made that deal!
$12.4M for Gomez and Gionta

$13M for Koivu, Kovalev, Tanguay, Higgins, and McDonagh... and you'd still have had the same room basically to add Moen and Camalleri, and make the same revamptions on defense. And had a lot more payroll flexibility.

Not that it could practically have been played out that way, based on the respective timelines and all. But still, there is a lot of money piled up on those two additions of Gainey's, and they will really have to step up big time to make people like me stop adding up the $$$ like that.

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