Those lines would be nice, but I think Westgarth or Ivanans will have a nightly spot on the 4th line, regardless of how much it may displease most of us.
Agree. We are not playing the Red Wings every night boys. If we expect to protect our stars (good grief, we actually have stars), we need the big muscle out there. I would love to see Westgarth take that step. What was the name of the Ducks' enforcer a few years back that suffered a concussion but before that, he was a tough, mean fighter than could skate and had some skills? I am drawing a blank. I am hoping Westgarth can turn into that type of players, sans the concussion.
Agree. We are not playing the Red Wings every night boys. If we expect to protect our stars (good grief, we actually have stars), we need the big muscle out there. I would love to see Westgarth take that step. What was the name of the Ducks' enforcer a few years back that suffered a concussion but before that, he was a tough, mean fighter than could skate and had some skills? I am drawing a blank. I am hoping Westgarth can turn into that type of players, sans the concussion.
Are you thinking about Fedoruk? I see no reason why Westgarth can't be as good as him, if not better.
When did I say we shouldn't have one of them on the roster? Ofcourse we need an enforcer on the roster. We just don't need one dressed every game.
I would really like to add someone like Carcillo though, that can play on the 3rd line, not a heavy weight, but someone who is tough and doesn't take any crap.
Let's also hope that Brown is a little meaner this year than last and that Smyth imbues some more confidence in the team in that regard. Lets also not forget that Simmonds will be a year older and a year tougher and a year bigger. Not a heavy weight, but also someone who I think won't shy away from the dirty play.
When did I say we shouldn't have one of them on the roster? Ofcourse we need an enforcer on the roster. We just don't need one dressed every game.
I would really like to add someone like Carcillo though, that can play on the 3rd line, not a heavy weight, but someone who is tough and doesn't take any crap.
Let's also hope that Brown is a little meaner this year than last and that Smyth imbues some more confidence in the team in that regard. Lets also not forget that Simmonds will be a year older and a year tougher and a year bigger. Not a heavy weight, but also someone who I think won't shy away from the dirty play.
Tougher is important, but the team also needs to be dirtier. I don't mean that in the face wash, smack them in the back of the head, get the elbow up, oops did I just plow over the goalie...actually, I do mean it exactly like that.
Tougher is important, but the team also needs to be dirtier. I don't mean that in the face wash, smack them in the back of the head, get the elbow up, oops did I just plow over the goalie...actually, I do mean it exactly like that.
I agree....I can't remember the last time the Kings made another team pay for taking an extra shot after the whistle or for taking a late shot on goal.
Tougher is important, but the team also needs to be dirtier. I don't mean that in the face wash, smack them in the back of the head, get the elbow up, oops did I just plow over the goalie...actually, I do mean it exactly like that.
Damn skippy. While having a big heavy weight is great for fights and general intimidation, I would prefer players like Brown and Simmonds and Stoll be just as on top of that so-called 'dirty' (in some places its just known as hockey) play.
Honestly, when Malkin shoulders Simmonds in the head, he shouldn't need anyone else to step up for him, because he should be turning right around and slashing Malkin's skate. Though he will need the enforcer as back up for when whoever their goon is/was comes after him seconds later for said slash. Point is, we shouldn't need an enforcer for our players to stick up for eachother and get gritty and in the other team's face. The enforcer is just insurance far as I'm concerned, not the source of aggression.
Tougher is important, but the team also needs to be dirtier. I don't mean that in the face wash, smack them in the back of the head, get the elbow up, oops did I just plow over the goalie...actually, I do mean it exactly like that.
I agree....I can't remember the last time the Kings made another team pay for taking an extra shot after the whistle or for taking a late shot on goal.
The year they beat Detroit in 6 and lost the Avalanche in 7. Deadmarsh, by himself, averaged 4 to 6 cheap shots per game. His + - for giving cheap shots v. taking them was a + 412.
Smyth, Brown, Williams, Stoll, Simmonds, Handzus, Johnson, Greene, SOD... they can step up. throw westgarth in there every so often. whatever. we don't need to throw away 6 minutes of ice-time per game on a fourth line of knuckledraggers.
Smyth, Brown, Williams, Stoll, Simmonds, Handzus, Johnson, Greene, SOD... they can step up. throw westgarth in there every so often. whatever. we don't need to throw away 6 minutes of ice-time per game on a fourth line of knuckledraggers.
To comment on this post and your last post. I was gonna respond with what mostly everyone here has said about having a fighter(hw) in the line-up, also there is no point debating whether it is necessary cause we all know TM isn't gonna not play a fighter(hw) in a game, hell he will play Ivanans and Westgarth at the same time before he goes without one. Also as to the line-up you posted, having Moller and Loki on the 4th line getting 6-8 mins a nite is a complete waste and a hindrance on their development.
Smyth, Brown, Williams, Stoll, Simmonds, Handzus, Johnson, Greene, SOD... they can step up. throw westgarth in there every so often. whatever. we don't need to throw away 6 minutes of ice-time per game on a fourth line of knuckledraggers.
I don't want Smyth, Williams, or Stoll to ever fight.
Brown needs to learn to fight. So does Greene.
O'D is too old to fight.
Simmonds is going to be as tough as Iginla in a few years (note, I said tough)
Handzus...lol, come on.
Johnson already knows how to fight. He'll get even better.
I don't want Smyth, Williams, or Stoll to ever fight.
Brown needs to learn to fight. So does Greene.
O'D is too old to fight.
Simmonds is going to be as tough as Iginla in a few years (note, I said tough)
Handzus...lol, come on.
Johnson already knows how to fight. He'll get even better.
I like your assements. I love that Greene is willing to drop them but as you said he needs to improve, he lost just about every fight he was in last season.
Yes, he did miss the prospect camp this year. I don't know what Terry Murray is talking about. Maybe the '08 camp?
Re Moller situation: I don't really think there was a situation, other than he went to the WJC and got hurt. I don't know why TM decided he suddenly wasn't physically strong enough (when he came back from the shoulder injury), but I think it had to do with other players (e.g. Calder, Purcell, even -- finally -- Boyle) finally deciding not to suck so much, whereas in the beginning of the year Moller was outplaying everybody.
As far as how many open slots there are, relative to last season...
Those four open slots were presumed to be going to Purcell, Armstrong, Richardson and Moulson (if memory serves). They ended up going to Moller, Simmonds, Armstrong and Moulson, with Boyle and Moulson quickly getting sent down and being replaced by an array of folks.
Again, four open slots, with the presumed front-runners being Moller, Purcell and Lewis. You've still got Richardson, Ivanans (and Westgarth) and Harrold, oh and Zeiler. But neither of Harrold or Zeiler are going to be in those top four open slots (maybe they'll be F13 or F14). I would say for the four active slots, it's going to be a battle between:
Moller, Purcell, Lewis, Loktionov, maybe Mikus, maybe Cliche (doubtful), maybe King, maybe Azevedo (again, doubtful), and some combination of Ivanans, Westgarth, Zeiler (or Clune).
Under those circumstances, I wouldn't say that this is out of the question, or even that far-fetched:
Smyth/Kopitar/Williams
Frolov/Stoll/Brown
Lewis/Handzus/Simmonds
Purcell/Moller/Loktionov
(Westgarth and Clune/Zeiler, spares)
SOD/Doughty
Johnson/Greene
Hickey/Scuderi
(Drewiske and Harrold, spares)
I don't want Smyth, Williams, or Stoll to ever fight.
Brown needs to learn to fight. So does Greene.
O'D is too old to fight.
Simmonds is going to be as tough as Iginla in a few years (note, I said tough)
Handzus...lol, come on.
Johnson already knows how to fight. He'll get even better.
This pretty much sums it up. Handzus, Smyth, and Williams rarely fight; they each have 3 fights apiece in their respective NHL careers, according to hockeyfights.com. Stoll has not fought once in his NHL career (which surprised me, given his fairly high PIM totals but he just takes a lot of minors).
To comment on this post and your last post. I was gonna respond with what mostly everyone here has said about having a fighter(hw) in the line-up, also there is no point debating whether it is necessary cause we all know TM isn't gonna not play a fighter(hw) in a game, hell he will play Ivanans and Westgarth at the same time before he goes without one. Also as to the line-up you posted, having Moller and Loki on the 4th line getting 6-8 mins a nite is a complete waste and a hindrance on their development.
I never said I would give Moller/Loktionov six minutes a night. I said an Ivanans line would get six minutes a night.
I don't want Smyth, Williams, or Stoll to ever fight.
Brown needs to learn to fight. So does Greene.
O'D is too old to fight.
Simmonds is going to be as tough as Iginla in a few years (note, I said tough)
Handzus...lol, come on.
Johnson already knows how to fight. He'll get even better.
Yeah, I didn't say "fight." I said "step up." Fighting does not one f***ing thing to deter opponents from taking a run at your stars. Why? Because your fighters fight their fighters, and their fighters aren't on the ice with your stars. Hitting is what I mean by stepping up, and Brown, Smyth, Williams, Stoll and the others I mentioned -- yes, including Handzus -- are more than capable.
This pretty much sums it up. Handzus, Smyth, and Williams rarely fight; they each have 3 fights apiece in their respective NHL careers, according to hockeyfights.com. Stoll has not fought once in his NHL career (which surprised me, given his fairly high PIM totals but he just takes a lot of minors).
Again, fights = pointless and not really a deterrent. Hitting = deterrent.
I never said I would give Moller/Loktionov six minutes a night. I said an Ivanans line would get six minutes a night.
The thing is, that's what they would get on a 4th line, 6-8 mins a nite, and if they were on the PP they might get more but neither would be on the PP on this team as it stands right now. (on a side note I agree with you, and would love a "skilled" 4th line, I hate "goons/fighters" in hockey, if you can't skate/move laterally you shouldn't be playing hockey but the bottom line is old timers love there old time hockey so the goon isn't going anywhere)
First of all, I have said many times that it's likely Murray will keep an enforcer around, and I've said many times that Loktionov is likely not to make this team (I even said it in the post that someone linked to at the beginning of this thread).
That said, Loktionov has a chance of making the team. See if you can follow the logic.
1) Loktionov is in a position to make the team.
2) The top six is generally considered to be "set" in terms of personnel (although I have frequently argued for more balance and spreading the wealth to three scoring lines, but leave that aside for a minute).
3) Therefore, it's likely that if Loktionov were to make the team, he would be skating with Moller. Also, unless you think one of Moller, Purcell or Loktionov are going to skate on the Handzus line (Moller could, but the others really couldn't -- well, maybe if Purcell has really done his homework), it stands to reason that they would be placed together.
4) Therefore, Moller/Loktionov as a pair is the logical place to end up.
I mentioned it as a fourth line because generally people get bent out of shape if you suggest, for example, Brown should be on the third line, or Handzus/Simmonds is the fourth line. I frankly don't give a **** what number you assign the lines. And if it were up to me, I would certainly argue in favor of a third line that is essentially a "1c" line, a speed line a la Donnelly/Millen, and a fourth line that is the stopper line.
Also, by the way, the idea that a Moller/Loktionov line wouldn't work because they would get man-handled doesn't wash. Who are they going to get man-handled by? The other team's knuckledraggers? They'll score before the idiots can catch up to them. The checking/stopper line? Well, good, because that will leave one of our first two lines free and clear. The other team's first or second unit? Again, strategically, that's a good thing. If other teams are going to line match to "take advantage" of Moller/Loktionov, not only would that leave our opponents exposed when our first two lines hit the ice, but Moller and Loktionov are both incredibly tenacious on the puck. They wouldn't be taken advantage of.
If Loktionov isn't ready this year, which is likely, then he isn't ready. But when he is ready, he's certainly not going to be a liability. And at that time, whenever it is, he likely WILL be paired with Moller, and they will tear the place up.
Moller is such a curious case going into camp. I see no reason why he isn't an NHL caliber player this year that can really help the team. He won't learn to be any bigger in the AHL.
However, we might be good enough without him, and Moller/Loktionov in Manchester would dominate, and getting Voynov and Bernier (assuming he stays down most of the year) and the rest of Manchester some real winning experience isn't such a bad thing either. Ultimately is all has to be about the Kings though, and I think Moller will be an asset to the team.
I am so ****ing ecstatic that the biggest argument going into camp is the make-up of our fourth line and who will be the 6th defenseman.
The thing is, that's what they would get on a 4th line, 6-8 mins a nite, and if they were on the PP they might get more but neither would be on the PP on this team as it stands right now. (on a side note I agree with you, and would love a "skilled" 4th line, I hate "goons/fighters" in hockey, if you can't skate/move laterally you shouldn't be playing hockey but the bottom line is old timers love there old time hockey so the goon isn't going anywhere)
I agree with you re Murray and the fact that he favors the enforcer "strategy." I'm not against the strategy in general. I just don't think we have the personnel for it. Maybe Westgarth is an upgrade. I don't know. But Ivanans is a walking obstruction penalty.
As far as the power play, you're right to point out that the roster is a bit thicker with powerplay guys than it was last year (Smyth and Williams replacing POS). However, unless Hickey makes the team, we're going to need Stoll to play a lot of point on the PP. And last season, Moller led the team in power play goals when he left for the WJC. So I think we'll be seeing him in that roll again. Maybe Stoll and Williams on the points with Johnson and Doughty (those aren't pairings, just the four candidates), and Moller and Loktionov on the right sides of each of the two first units. Or together on the second unit. Loktionov, as you probably know, is a center, but in the games I saw always played right wing on the PP, and was deadly.
Lastly, the ice-time thing: the fourth line six minutes a game thing is a chicken/egg question. Last season, Murray talked about wanting four balanced lines and being able to roll them, but we didn't have the personnel. Boyle couldn't hack the defensive responsibilities. Ivanans was a blight. So he had no choice but to reduce them to six minutes. But balanced means balanced. They could get 10 -12 minutes a night. I'm curious to see whether Murray tries to balance the lines again this year. I'm betting he will. It appears to be his natural inclination. In addition to the fact that he said he wanted to do it, remember how often he spread the wealth among the first three, and even four, lines. It wasn't always as punishment.
Anyway, I don't mean to suggest that I think Loktionov is going to make it this fall. The safe bet is he won't. But he might. I was highly impressed with the change in him in just these last four months, and said as much in the post linked to above, even before Helene Elliott wrote her piece in which Murray and Lombardi were saying the same thing I was, in even more effusive language.
If Clifford or Nolan or Pelech or Clune were ready this fall (which none of them are, I don't think), we might be debating whether they will be taking the place of Ivanans and/or Westgarth. Sooner or later, that's going happen in some form.
I wonder if Clune will get in any fights this camp, like he did last year.
Moller is such a curious case going into camp. I see no reason why he isn't an NHL caliber player this year that can really help the team. He won't learn to be any bigger in the AHL.
However, we might be good enough without him, and Moller/Loktionov in Manchester would dominate, and getting Voynov and Bernier (assuming he stays down most of the year) and the rest of Manchester some real winning experience isn't such a bad thing either. Ultimately is all has to be about the Kings though, and I think Moller will be an asset to the team.
I am so ****ing ecstatic that the biggest argument going into camp is the make-up of our fourth line and who will be the 6th defenseman.
I agree with you that Moller/Loktionov tearing up the AHL would be fun to see. Moller does have some waiver-exemption left, so it might happen for that reason alone. If the de facto top-six and Purcell and Lewis all have a great camp, Moller might -- might -- end up the odd man out and have to spend some time in Manchester. But if anyone dogs it, Moller will bump them.
Yeah, I didn't say "fight." I said "step up." Fighting does not one f***ing thing to deter opponents from taking a run at your stars. Why? Because your fighters fight their fighters, and their fighters aren't on the ice with your stars. Hitting is what I mean by stepping up, and Brown, Smyth, Williams, Stoll and the others I mentioned -- yes, including Handzus -- are more than capable.
More effective than hitting is scoring. Capitalizing on the PP opportunities they give you.
It is really a balance. If you have soft players on your team that cannot defend themselves, you are already one step behind the tougher teams in the league. If you have an ass kicking powerplay that scores when they take the dumb penalty that was the cheap shot, you will deter them. If you have an enforcer that will take on the cheap shot artist (no, not their fighter, the guy who threw the cheap shot) and beat him into tomorrow, then you will deter the other players from doing so.
I agree with you that our fighter v. their fighter accomplishes little. The above accomplishes far more.
