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Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVII: Wake Me Up When September Ends

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Old
09-08-2009, 01:19 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaym3000 View Post
Yes why can't everyone just step away and let the NHL steal this franchise leaving Glendale with nothing so that they can turn around and give it to Jerry and he can move it to KC? What is wrong with you people?
because the precedence was set w/ both Pittsburgh and Nashville, why should ANYONE believe ANYTHING Balsillie says or does, half the hockey fanbase is tired of this moron and the fans don't buy it, why should COG?

Balstupid is to blame for JR backing out and he'll be blamed when Ice Edge backs out or drops out due to his interference.

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09-08-2009, 01:20 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Yes, they are.

If that kind of no-risk bidding were opened up, I myself would bid $1 Billion dollars. Since there is no actual risk of the bid being accepted - because there is no risk of the NHL putting a team in MLSE territory - the free rush of publicity it would generate for me and my company would be WELL worth the pittance in lawyer fees it would cost to draw up the offer documents.

Do you understand now?
Mod: deleted.

If they got an offer for a team in Hamilton that makes sense for them, they'll accept it and give a chunk of it to the Leafs. To think that people who have teh kind of money to be able to make their offer legitimate are going to not consider the risk that their offer is actually accepted is extremely farfetched..... but the best part is.... it also doesn't matter.

If someone who bids $1billion (and their bid is legitimate, obviously bids from illegitimate people won't be counted), THEY CAN GET $1billion for the team..... and even better.....if they can get $242.5 from Jim Balsillie, well, they can get $242.5 for a team in Hamilton. ANY Value that Balsillie is willing to pay for the team in Hamilton is value that the NHL forgoes if they don't get it in a relocation fee.


Last edited by Fugu: 09-08-2009 at 01:21 PM. Reason: excessive shouting
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09-08-2009, 01:21 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
They are not meaningless. The NHL is entitled the FUTURE EXPANSION OPPORTUNITY forgone. The value of that right now would be whatever offer they can get. The decision to sell it at that price is completely separate.
Clearly that is the argument except that creates some problems for the NHL if they pump up the value. If Southern Ontario is such a lucrative market and has excellent value, why not before?

PSE would say it is because MLSE does not want competition and says that is the inference that can be reasonably drawn from all the history and from material filed in the Phoenix court. That is why the issue of a veto or even perhaps a de facto veto where the NHL would rather avoid Hamilton at all costs then get in a fight with MLSE over relocating into their market.

For the NHL arguing high value for the Hamilton market would seem to be a bit of two-edged sword.

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09-08-2009, 01:22 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
No. The current value of the existing franchise in Phoenix.

Edit: The court did tell the NHL to come up with a number for the Hamilton franchise. To me that means that they can choose to entertain bids if they wish to base the value on market conditions, and not expert valuations (or both).
Incorrect. The NHL does not get an existing franchise in Phoenix back. They get an expansion opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Clearly that is the argument except that creates some problems for the NHL if they pump up the value. If Southern Ontario is such a lucrative market and has excellent value, why not before?

PSE would say it is because MLSE does not want competition and says that is the inference that can be reasonably drawn from all the history and from material filed in the Phoenix court. That is why the issue of a veto or even perhaps a de facto veto where the NHL would rather avoid Hamilton at all costs then get in a fight with MLSE over relocating into their market.

For the NHL arguing high value for the Hamilton market would seem to be a bit of two-edged sword.
Why not later?

The judge isn't in a position to question the business decisions of the NHL; only ensure that tehy are fairly compensated if he forces something that the NHL wouldn't have to otherwise do.

Whether its the MLSE veto or not doesn't really matter. The League as a collective has decided that they would prefer to not have a team there.

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09-08-2009, 01:24 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by CHRDANHUTCH View Post
because the precedence was set w/ both Pittsburgh and Nashville, why should ANYONE believe ANYTHING Balsillie says or does, half the hockey fanbase is tired of this moron and the fans don't buy it, why should COG?

Balstupid is to blame for JR backing out and he'll be blamed when Ice Edge backs out or drops out due to his interference.
It seems a good many fans support Balsillie if the comments and letters to the editors in Canada are any indication. In the US it just does not seem to have any impact at all except in Phoenix perhaps.

Perhaps half the Phoenix fan base may be "tired of this moron" but in real numbers it would appear that pro-Balsillie fans outnumber anti-Balsillie fans by a sizeable margin.

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09-08-2009, 01:26 PM
  #106
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The Teachers' will sell too ANYBODY if the price is right. The Leafs, under the Teachers', has always been for sale at the right price. The Teachers' is the main reason the Leafs (MLSE) are in the state that they are in. They CANNOT lose money, it cannot happen. It is a pension, they cannot take risks that can mess with the pension. You can see where the problem is.


*Wrong quote, this is in reply to ND*

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09-08-2009, 01:26 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Incorrect. The NHL does not get an existing franchise in Phoenix back. They get an expansion opportunity.
Are you speaking as to what the court is considering, or your own opinion on what the value should be?

Quote:
The judge isn't in a position to question the business decisions of the NHL; only ensure that tehy are fairly compensated if he forces something that the NHL wouldn't have to otherwise do.

Whether its the MLSE veto or not doesn't really matter. The League as a collective has decided that they would prefer to not have a team there.
Again, for someone who seems to certain of the legal interpretation of things, you seem to be ignoring the law.

The MLSE veto does matter-- if it exists. It's illegal.

 
Old
09-08-2009, 01:28 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by CHRDANHUTCH View Post
because the precedence was set w/ both Pittsburgh and Nashville, why should ANYONE believe ANYTHING Balsillie says or does, half the hockey fanbase is tired of this moron and the fans don't buy it, why should COG?

Balstupid is to blame for JR backing out and he'll be blamed when Ice Edge backs out or drops out due to his interference.
I'd say the majority of Canadian fans are backing Jim. Or are you like Gary....we don't count.

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09-08-2009, 01:33 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Incorrect. The NHL does not get an existing franchise in Phoenix back. They get an expansion opportunity.
jfried:

WHY is Expansion now not on the table, nor is in the immediate future of the NHL HOW does PHX get an expansion opportunity, are you trying to correlate the offer made by Stern to Seattle when Bennett was allowed to move to the Ford Center in OKC?

the whole point is does PHX get to keep pro hockey at any level or go back to what it was prior to their arrival

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09-08-2009, 01:34 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post

There are lineups of people in southern ontario who want an NHL team and have gone about it the right way.
Lineups? What lineups?

I wasn't aware of the NHL taking expansion bids for a team in southern Ontario. Had they done so, JB would have gone that route from the very beginning. None of this would be taking place. But that so-called "front door" never existed.

So you must be talking about buying existing franchises.

Are you referring to the Toronto Argonaut group that had to borrow money to run a CFL team?


Last edited by bleeney: 09-08-2009 at 01:55 PM.
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09-08-2009, 01:36 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Yes, I do get it.

What you seem to have missed is that offers made for a team in Hamilton are meaningless in establishing the potential value of a franchise in Hamilton unless the NHL is actually going to accept one of the offers.

Without that - without the risk to bidders of their bids actually being accepted - the offers are completely irrelevant. And since that seems extremely unlikely to happen, this entire line of discussion is most likely pointless.

Until the NHL decides to accept a franchise in Hamilton and establishes a process for selling a franchise there, there simply is no proper, indisputable way to value a franchise there.
You hit on an important point. The NHL doesn't appear to want a franchise in Hamilton at this time. That is their right. No one has an inalienable right to a NHL franchise.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
I agree with this, which is why I've posted previously here in the Phoenix bankruptcy threads that the NHL would perhaps be wise to cut a deal with the multi-billionaire ahead of a potentially negative court ruling against them. They may be wise to cut a deal with the guy trying move the team (that is bankrupt) rather than leave it bleeding in perpetuity while the issue is tied up in court for years, despite their public protestations to the contrary that they'd fight to the highest court. To the highest court? Really? While the "asset" in question potentially posts increasing financial losses annually? I doubt that they'd fight that hard rather than go into business with the man who runs the fastest growing company around the globe.

That is why I personally feel the basis for a deal between JB and the NHL still exists, and that a surprise announcement could be imminent.
Normally, I would agree with you. This is a pretty special case. The NHL feels Balsillie has been dishonest, disruptive and devious in his dealings. Additionally, RIMM's conduct in the Nortel auction was perceived the exact same way and thus was banned from participating in the auction. The company's attempts to coerce opposing sides in other litigation elicited the same types of opinions. One writer even rechristened the company Litigation in Motion. I just think the distrust for Balsillie is so strong, the BoG will not settle with PSE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
I would agree with you on this.

Unfortunately, that is extremely unlikely to happen as it would require the NHL BoG to actually accept an offer for a team in Hamilton.
As I opined above, I don't believe the BoG wants a team in Hamilton at this time. I also believe if Balsillie agreed to buy the Coyotes for his current APA and agreed to keep them in Glendale for 7 years, his application would be rejected. At this point, too much has happened.

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Originally Posted by SirShagg View Post
No arguement on that from me!

However, in the end I don't think the judge will give JB the team and order it moved against the NHL's will.

What this might do is create FUD with the COG in regards to the Ice Edge deal and hamper any deal they are working on. My personal opinion is that the judge will award the team to Ice Edge so long as they are able to work out a deal with COG.
I believe this offer was a pre-emptive strike against the Ice Edge MOU to create the FUD you refer to above. It's actually pretty smart!

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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Its all related. Any money that Glendale would be getting is money that belongs to the NHL.
I don't believe this is an accurate statement. I read the offer to be $50 million to the City in the event of a successful sale to PSE and either Court or NHL approval of PSE as an owner PLUS either Court or NHL approval to move the team to Hamilton ASAP. The offer is then reduced on a dollar for dollar basis against any relocation fees due the NHL for any amounts over $15 million. Thus if the fee is $25 million or more, the offer is reduced by $10 million to $40 million. Additionally, to the degree that the team would be required to play in Glendale under PSE's ownership, there would be no rents paid. Therefore, the City would receive payment regardless of the League's relocation fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
It's not enough. The BoG would need to actually commit to accepting one of those offers - which means breaking MLSE's "non-veto veto" - which seems extremely unlikely to happen.
It's just my opinion, but I don't believe they want a team in Hamilton at this time. I'm not privy to their plan of course, but public statements lead me to that belief.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RousselRising View Post
Thoughts on Moyes' claim getting reduced by JB's new bid? The closer it gets to $0 (which the judge could still rule), it could actually cost him $30M which he owes to the NHL on a personal guarantee. It could behoove Moyes to consider dealing with the NHL in exchange for it waiving that $30M personal debt. The Bettman/Scudder huddle, perhaps?
You do have a point RR. I know it has come up several times, but little has been said about that on this board. I think that along with a business's right to choose partners has been ignored because they are very difficult to dispute. If I were advocating PSE's side, I would ignore them, or at least give them very short shrift. (Right Wetcoaster?)

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09-08-2009, 01:37 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox X Mulder View Post
I'd say the majority of Canadian fans are backing Jim. Or are you like Gary....we don't count.
then why is Balsillie speaking for Michael Andlauer, Fox, WHEN HE suggested that Hamilton get the Coyotes, and Glendale get the Bulldogs (remember them)

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09-08-2009, 01:40 PM
  #113
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The MLSE veto does matter-- if it exists. It's illegal.
Minor clarification: if it is exercised it's illegal.

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09-08-2009, 01:41 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by CHRDANHUTCH View Post
then why is Balsillie speaking for Michael Andlauer, Fox, WHEN HE suggested that Hamilton get the Coyotes, and Glendale get the Bulldogs (remember them)
Sorry, I don't follow you.

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09-08-2009, 01:45 PM
  #115
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How do you become a millionaire?

Start off being a billionaire then invest in the Phoenix Coyotes!
Love it!!

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09-08-2009, 01:50 PM
  #116
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Normally, I would agree with you. This is a pretty special case. The NHL feels Balsillie has been dishonest, disruptive and devious in his dealings. Additionally, RIMM's conduct in the Nortel auction was perceived the exact same way and thus was banned from participating in the auction. The company's attempts to coerce opposing sides in other litigation elicited the same types of opinions. One writer even rechristened the company Litigation in Motion. I just think the distrust for Balsillie is so strong, the BoG will not settle with PSE.
Your comments are certainly onside with the NHL meme as bankruptcy proceedings began.

RIMM is not trying to buy the team though, Balsillie is.

You may claim that the distrust of Balsillie is too high to hurdle, but the goalposts have moved markedly since the NHL began floating the idea that they'd never deal with him. Their risks have increased, likely well beyond their own initial worst case scenario planning.

You preclude the possibility of them coming to a deal and then having Balsillie attend a BOG meeting and fall on his sword in front of the BOG. Displays of remorse play well with the stuffed suit crowd.

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09-08-2009, 01:51 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
It seems a good many fans support Balsillie if the comments and letters to the editors in Canada are any indication. In the US it just does not seem to have any impact at all except in Phoenix perhaps.

Perhaps half the Phoenix fan base may be "tired of this moron" but in real numbers it would appear that pro-Balsillie fans outnumber anti-Balsillie fans by a sizeable margin.
Well, you gotta admit, if you can't whip up a frenzy with a dumb nationalist campaign, you can't whip up a frenzy, period.

and as for whoever that was on the last thread, no I was not being sarcastic, the change in revenue between the two markets is probably worth $800K to $1M to the cap, and that's it. maybe a slight one time hit for merchandise.

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09-08-2009, 01:56 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox X Mulder View Post
Sorry, I don't follow you.
WHY should anyone believe ANYTHING Balsillie does, when we already know based off the two previous attempts that'll it never work.

basic premise we found out his PR planted the rumor about Hamilton, and not many were thrilled when that was proposed since most already knew that no matter what league Balsillie weasels his way in, this will follow.

Our league already has been through this with the same franchise in two different markets and once you've been disqualified as it appears Tamer Afr, was for financial mismanagement and the recent Iowa termination, those owners will never be considered for ownership application as it appears JB is in regards to PHX.

IT'S HIGHLY UNLIKELY that Iowa or Louisville will ever have pro hockey at any level due to those circumstances.

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09-08-2009, 02:00 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Your comments are certainly onside with the NHL meme as bankruptcy proceedings began.

RIMM is not trying to buy the team though, Balsillie is.

You may claim that the distrust of Balsillie is too high to hurdle, but the goalposts have moved markedly since the NHL began floating the idea that they'd never deal with him. Their risks have increased, likely well beyond their own initial worst case scenario planning.

You preclude the possibility of them coming to a deal and then having Balsillie attend a BOG meeting and fall on his sword in front of the BOG. Displays of remorse play well with the stuffed suit crowd.
Yes I do preclude that. I also believe he would not gain approval to buy the Coyotes and KEEP this team in Phoenix, even if he signed a consent agreement and a personal guarantee, backed by assets. I believe they can't do business. You have been offering up the opinion for some time that a deal is imminent. I guess we will see whether that happens.

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09-08-2009, 02:05 PM
  #120
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Are you speaking as to what the court is considering, or your own opinion on what the value should be?



Again, for someone who seems to certain of the legal interpretation of things, you seem to be ignoring the law.

The MLSE veto does matter-- if it exists. It's illegal.
I'm speaking to what the judge said when he ruled on hte matter.

MLSE veto is not illegal.....but even if it does exist, its the NHL's right to decide that they don't care about fighting it.

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09-08-2009, 02:05 PM
  #121
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How do you become a millionaire?

Start off being a billionaire then invest in the Phoenix Coyotes!
Thirty Years Ago called.

They want you to stop stealing their material.

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09-08-2009, 02:07 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by bleeney View Post
Lineups? What lineups?

I wasn't aware of the NHL taking expansion bids for a team in southern Ontario. Had they done so, JB would have gone that route from the very beginning. None of this would be taking place. But that so-called "front door" never existed.

So you must be talking about buying existing franchises.

Are you referring to the Toronto Argonaut group that had to borrow money to run a CFL team?
They weren't, but they likely now are because there is a risk that they will need them. There are several groups who have met with the NHL quitely to discuss bringing a team to Southern Ontario, and if the NHL was forced to produce a number, there would be more. Just because you don't see it in the media, doesn't mean its not going on. The NHL is smart enough to know that these types of deals should be done outside of the public eye.

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09-08-2009, 02:09 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by GSC2k2 View Post
Thirty Years Ago called.

They want you to stop stealing their material.

Irony?

Whats the earliest you guys see this "ordeal" over with?

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09-08-2009, 02:10 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Your comments are certainly onside with the NHL meme as bankruptcy proceedings began.

RIMM is not trying to buy the team though, Balsillie is.

You may claim that the distrust of Balsillie is too high to hurdle, but the goalposts have moved markedly since the NHL began floating the idea that they'd never deal with him. Their risks have increased, likely well beyond their own initial worst case scenario planning.

You preclude the possibility of them coming to a deal and then having Balsillie attend a BOG meeting and fall on his sword in front of the BOG. Displays of remorse play well with the stuffed suit crowd.
A. You have no idea what the NHL's worst case planning scenario is.

B. Based on your use of the term "stuffed shirt" and your previous contributions, I doubt that you have much knowledge about what "plays well" in such circles.

I can tell you that what plays well in such circles is being someone you can count on, and NOT being a bull in a china shop.

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Irony?

Whats the earliest you guys see this "ordeal" over with?
Thanks for noticing. Good eye. I like my irony sliced in large slabs sometimes.

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09-08-2009, 02:12 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by GSC2k2 View Post
Thirty Years Ago called.

They want you to stop stealing their material.
Funny how some humour transcends time.

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