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The Kessel File-Volume 2 - Phil Wants Out of Beantown

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Old
09-12-2009, 10:47 AM
  #776
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Rask for Raycroft is exactly the same thing. People were esctatic we were getting a former Calder winner and as a 26 year old goalie his best years were ahead of him. Meanwhile Rask was just a goalie in Finland.
You're just pulling **** out of your ass now. The majority of the board didn't like the deal or was indifferent until they saw how he played. And we all know how that went. The only poster who was "ecstatic" was Mess (how embarrassing for him).

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09-12-2009, 10:47 AM
  #777
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That's a very good find but it doesn't really answer the question.

Kessel is an RFA, a Restricted Free Agent, so if we wait until the Oct. 1st deadline where teams have to lock into the cap, Boston in order to fit Kessel under the cap limit would have to either trade player(s) or put them on waivers to demote them, before they could sign him.

There is nothing in that CBA section, that says, if you sign a Free Agent, that he could also be immediately put on the LTIR without first submitting a doctors certificate on his injuries and they then grant the LTIR and you can't do that until he is signed and approved by the league (he's still a Free Agent up to that point).

My contention is that Boston, would be over the cap, the minute the signed contract papers, were submitted to the league for approval (which would or should be denied), before Boston would have to have the doctors certificate approved, by the league in a separate submission, after the contract is signed, there is definitely a time period, their team would be over cap and the deal should not be approved.

The only way, I can see them being able to sign Kessel, without other player movement, is if there were a grace period, enabling them, to get all the paper work out of the way, as a total transaction and even then, we may be able to put in a protest and still have it voided.

Hopefully it will not go to this extreme and a deal will be struck soon.
It answers the question of "Do they have to wait 10 games or 24 days to go on LTIR," which clearly staes they do not. From there it is a very easy paper transaction to get it done. 10 minutes before matching the offer sheet, Boston sends down a player who is exempt from waivers. So maybe Wheeler and/or Lucic.

Then they match, and submit the LTIR form, and immediately recall Wheeler and/or Lucic. Problem solved until Kessel is ready to return.

As for can he be put on LTIR before the offer is matched? I have no idea, but I'm not sure it is out of the realm of possibility, or at least I'm sure the NHL has a policy in place to allow just that, or something similar.

I'm sure there is a piece in the deal which says, we match this contract contingent on health, and the medical provides the letter which states he needs LTIR, and the team accepts the contract know he needs LTIR. Mess isn't to far off, and really, it's just a paper transaction that will allow Boston to keep Kessel if they choose to match, which then puts pressure on them in November or December.

Now, does the CBA state if an RFA offer sheet is matched the team can't trade him for 1 calander year, or is it the remainder of the season? If the offer sheet is matched OCT 7th, are they unable to trade him until Oct 7th the following year?

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09-12-2009, 10:56 AM
  #778
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14 consecutive playoff appearances.
but no cups, stevens Captained NJ to 3 if IIRC

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09-12-2009, 11:01 AM
  #779
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Originally Posted by dynrehab View Post
It answers the question of "Do they have to wait 10 games or 24 days to go on LTIR," which clearly staes they do not. From there it is a very easy paper transaction to get it done. 10 minutes before matching the offer sheet, Boston sends down a player who is exempt from waivers. So maybe Wheeler and/or Lucic.

Then they match, and submit the LTIR form, and immediately recall Wheeler and/or Lucic. Problem solved until Kessel is ready to return.

As for can he be put on LTIR before the offer is matched? I have no idea, but I'm not sure it is out of the realm of possibility, or at least I'm sure the NHL has a policy in place to allow just that, or something similar.

I'm sure there is a piece in the deal which says, we match this contract contingent on health, and the medical provides the letter which states he needs LTIR, and the team accepts the contract know he needs LTIR. Mess isn't to far off, and really, it's just a paper transaction that will allow Boston to keep Kessel if they choose to match, which then puts pressure on them in November or December.

Now, does the CBA state if an RFA offer sheet is matched the team can't trade him for 1 calander year, or is it the remainder of the season? If the offer sheet is matched OCT 7th, are they unable to trade him until Oct 7th the following year?
Ya I agree, it makes sense.

They could send down those players before Oct.1st and then re-sign Kessel, then submit a LTIR certificate and when passed by the League they could then re-instate those players.

Certainly a lot of shuffling and as I stated before hopefully we can get a trade done soon.

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09-12-2009, 11:02 AM
  #780
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Maybe we can take Marco Sturm's salary? Don't know how Burke will manage to take Kessel without over paying though. Therefore I think Nashville would best fit, as they have some pretty darn good defensive prospects that they can offer
The Bs really like Sturm I think. He would not be a salary dump. More likely they would move Bergeron but that would be to a third club for some kind of return since he is medically vulnerable but could also score 75 pts next year.

Yea Nashville would be a potential club but they are small market and have to watch their money. Their own cap is nowhere near the league cap.
I am fairly certain that Wilson is untouchable so that kind of leaves Blum(others have mentioned Ryan Ellis but he is tiny and there is no evidence the Bruins think he was the 11th best player in the draft).
Blum + picks could do it. I think Boston would want a cheap winger winger back too but the Preds are pretty thin at forward. If they like Blum enough that might not matter. To me Nashville needs more forward depth rather than just a sniper at the top if they are really going to contend but PK could be a where they start.

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09-12-2009, 11:03 AM
  #781
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You're getting a 21 year old top-5 pick 36gls in 70gms scorer (i.e. 40-gl guy) who's not a UFA for another 6 years..
Kessel potentially reaches UFA status in 4 years not 6 when he will meet the 7 seasons of NHL service threshold because he began his NHL career at age 18.

Kessel currently age 21 will be only 25/26 at that time, and his contract situation will be based on the knowledge to attempt to get him secured beyond 4 years.

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09-12-2009, 11:08 AM
  #782
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Why is everyone assuming Kessel wants to play in Nashville? He is a free agent, it is his choice where he plays. Boston only has the right to match the offer sheet and if they do they cannot trade him for 1 year. Phill Kessel has to want to play in the city that wants him whether that is Leafs, Rangers or Preds.
Yep. I think it's between Toronto and New York, unless Nashville offers him an obscene amount of money - which is unlikely.

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09-12-2009, 11:11 AM
  #783
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
I've read somewhere, but I can't remember that Kessel might be ahead of schedule, but that he won't be invited to camp unless he's signed.

It is also convenient to keep him injured until the cap situation is cleared up.
Again, the cap situation is not just about this year.

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09-12-2009, 11:37 AM
  #784
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But he does NOT have a contract. So two things, he does NOT have to report to training camp and how do you put an unsigned player on the LTIR?
Well technically there is no need to do that because LTIR in the CBA is to allow injured players to be replaced and its an option designed for Salary Cap management purposes. While Kessel is a unsigned RFA he isn't counting against the Cap anyways.

I was more suggesting that LTIR papers be filed with the NHL in case an offer sheet situation occurs which is an occurrence outside of the teams control.. If the Bruins were the ones signing Kessel then they would have the timing control and adjust to meet Cap limits. Likely that proactive LTIR is not even necessary as Bruins and the NHL knows an offer sheet is a possible option, and Bruins simply submit the LTIR notification to the NHL upon matching the offer sheet to address Cap issues.

The hard Salary Cap ceiling is designed to keep teams in line spending wise... An injured player (like Kessel) is of no benefit to the team while hurt so there are CBA options that account for that. Its really overzealous fans that are hoping that there is a way to steal away a RFA player from another team by using a Salary Cap limit to force him loose.

Chiarelli is still in complete control of the outcome here and has many options available, and comes across unfazed in interviews of such a threat.. He continues to claim he will match any offer sheet submitted and has ownerships financial support and backing to do just that. An offer sheet attempt is really only getting Kessel under contract to the Bruins and off of RFA status, only at a higher cost that presently they were prepared to pay.

The only way Kessel will realistically become a Leaf is if Burke can put together a trade proposal package >>> offer sheet compensation that Chiarelli is willing to accept and then a successful trade is completed.

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Old
09-12-2009, 11:43 AM
  #785
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Well technically there is no need to do that because LTIR in the CBA is to allow injured players to be replaced and its an option designed for Salary Cap management purposes. While Kessel is a unsigned RFA he isn't counting against the Cap anyways.

I was more suggesting that LTIR papers be filed with the NHL in case an offer sheet situation occurs which is an occurrence outside of the teams control.. If the Bruins were the ones signing Kessel then they would have the timing control and adjust to meet Cap limits. Likely that proactive LTIR is not even necessary as Bruins and the NHL knows an offer sheet is a possible option, and Bruins simply submit the LTIR notification to the NHL upon matching the offer sheet to address Cap issues.

The hard Salary Cap ceiling is designed to keep teams in line spending wise... An injured player (like Kessel) is of no benefit to the team while hurt so there are CBA options that account for that. Its really overzealous fans that are hoping that there is a way to steal away a RFA player from another team by using a Salary Cap limit to force him loose.

Chiarelli is still in complete control of the outcome here and has many options available, and comes across unfazed in interviews of such a threat.. He continues to claim he will match any offer sheet submitted and has ownerships financial support and backing to do just that. An offer sheet attempt is really only getting Kessel under contract to the Bruins and off of RFA status, only at a higher cost that presently they were prepared to pay.

The only way Kessel will realistically become a Leaf is if Burke can put together a trade proposal package >>> offer sheet compensation that Chiarelli is willing to accept and then a successful trade is completed.
what are you talking about? He counts on the CAP...
They can replace Kessel cap space with another player upto Kessel amount.... But the Cap hit is still there...

You can't have Kessel make 5 mil... pretend he's injured
bring in Joe Can'thackit from the AHL at 800K and beat the cap.
It doesn't work like that... the 5 mil is still the on the Team Cap hit, but the new guys 800K isn't

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09-12-2009, 11:44 AM
  #786
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Yep. I think it's between Toronto and New York, unless Nashville offers him an obscene amount of money - which is unlikely.
I'm fairly sure I remember reading nashville has an internal salary cap, so I doubt they'll get into a spending war with teams that are free to spend right up to the cap like Toronto and NY.

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09-12-2009, 11:45 AM
  #787
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When do you guys see the smoke and the dust finally clearing up on a deal? Whether that is NY, Toronto, or Nashville? Do you see a deal happening within the next 48 hrs?

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09-12-2009, 11:49 AM
  #788
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When do you guys see the smoke and the dust finally clearing up on a deal? Whether that is NY, Toronto, or Nashville? Do you see a deal happening within the next 48 hrs?
well Chia would be stupid to wait, if he waits 2 more weeks he's strapped to RFA offer sheets for sure. I say he's gone within 2 weeks

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09-12-2009, 11:51 AM
  #789
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I'm fairly sure I remember reading nashville has an internal salary cap, so I doubt they'll get into a spending war with teams that are free to spend right up to the cap like Toronto and NY.
Ya, I've heard the same thing. That's why it's likely between NYR and the Leafs.

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09-12-2009, 11:55 AM
  #790
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what are you talking about? He counts on the CAP...
They can replace Kessel cap space with another player upto Kessel amount.... But the Cap hit is still there...

You can't have Kessel make 5 mil... pretend he's injured
bring in Joe Can'thackit from the AHL at 800K and beat the cap.
It doesn't work like that... the 5 mil is still the on the Team Cap hit, but the new guys 800K isn't
When a team puts a player on LTIR they're allowed to replace him on the roster with another player making less money only.

During the time of the injury and LTIR status the Bruins are allowed to go over the $56.8 mil hard cap ceiling of Kessel's contract and the substitute plays in his spot .. Basically Kessel and the substitute are counting as 1 player as salaries are overlapping and exceeding the Cap max in the process.

The easy way to state that by me was Kessel didn't count while on LTIR and could be replaced while injured. The outcome is the same end result and the Salary Cap ceiling max amount is not stopping Bruins from matching any offer sheet as the amount while Kessel is injured allow the Bruins to go above the Cap ceiling. (essentially in layman's terms not counting )

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09-12-2009, 11:55 AM
  #791
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Ya, I've heard the same thing. That's why it's likely between NYR and the Leafs.
The Rangers are at 55 mil... unless they trade one of their overpaid players to Boston (which isn't happening) I dont' see how they can do it

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09-12-2009, 11:56 AM
  #792
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Originally Posted by !!TML97!! View Post
When do you guys see the smoke and the dust finally clearing up on a deal? Whether that is NY, Toronto, or Nashville? Do you see a deal happening within the next 48 hrs?
I don't believe that we know what Kessel and his agent are thinking.

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09-12-2009, 11:56 AM
  #793
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I hope he goes to the Leafs.

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09-12-2009, 11:57 AM
  #794
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When a team puts a player on LTIR they're allowed to replace him on the roster with another player making less money only.

During the time of the injury and LTIR status the Bruins are allowed to go over the $56.8 mil hard cap ceiling of Kessel's contract and the substitute plays in his spot .. Basically Kessel and the substitute are counting as 1 player as salaries are overlaping and exceeding the Cap max in the process.

The easy way to state that by me was Kessel didn't count while on LTIR and could be replaced while injured. The outcome is the same end result and the Salary Cap ceiling max amount is not stopping Bruins from matching any offer sheet as the amount while Kessel is injured allow the Bruins to go above the Cap ceiling. (essentially in laymans terms not counting )
thats what I explained.... but the new players cap hit = Kessel even tho he makes way less... (He's just a replacement)

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09-12-2009, 11:57 AM
  #795
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Originally Posted by joepeps View Post
The Rangers are at 55 mil... unless they trade one of their overpaid players to Boston (which isn't happening) I dont' see how they can do it
Haven't they been in on Heatley this whole time? Maybe they have deals in place to get cap space.

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09-12-2009, 11:58 AM
  #796
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Chia should just cough up Kessel & accept the Leafs gift of 3 draft picks & run away !!!!

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09-12-2009, 12:02 PM
  #797
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Chia should just cough up Kessel & accept the Leafs gift of 3 draft picks & run away !!!!
He should have take Kaberle at the draft lol

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09-12-2009, 12:04 PM
  #798
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Kessel has the power, not Boston, Not Burke, Not the Preds.

The preds could offer the best deal... They could offer, Webber, Ellis, and 2 1sts for Kessel. But if Kessel wont sign for them it means nothing.

As long as the deal is over 5 million, I see no way that the bruins can match it.....

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09-12-2009, 12:09 PM
  #799
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The Rangers are at 55 mil... unless they trade one of their overpaid players to Boston (which isn't happening) I dont' see how they can do it
They have Dubinsky to resign also.

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09-12-2009, 12:10 PM
  #800
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thats what I explained.... but the new players cap hit = Kessel even tho he makes way less... (He's just a replacement)
The amount is irrelevant though and can be up to or equal to the amount Kessel is signed to while on IR as his substitute. Agreed it often is an AHL recall replacement that happens to fill in because teams don't have big contract players lying around as spares playing in the minors.

Kessel could get a $5 mil offer sheet and Bruins match and place him on IR exceeding the Salary Cap amount hard cap in the process.. Then they can designate Mike Ryder ($4 mil) or Blake Wheeler ($3.75 mil) as his IR replacement player. You just happened to use a scrub but it doesn't have to be that way.

My point always was that while injured both of Kessel ($5 mil) and Ryder ($ 4 mil) don't count as $9 mil combined and are required to both fit below the $56.8 mil max salary cap. Kessel's contract amount and his replacement players amount are overlapping in terms of Salary Cap calculations and can go over the Cap ceiling max.

Boston's real Salary cap concern is not this season via an Offer sheet matching, but rather next year when they need and want to resign Savard and other RFA players.

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