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The Kessel File-Volume 2 - Phil Wants Out of Beantown

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Old
09-09-2009, 01:13 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by oscarknows View Post
kadri for kessel
oscar doesn't know

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09-09-2009, 01:17 PM
  #102
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Here's a situation I don't think anyone's really looked at. What if Burke does make a trade, and it includes something like Kulemin + White + 3rd.

We already know that White was apparently offered a 2nd for, and Kulemin is like a 1st round pick considering he had solid production in his rookie year and is a good prospect.

I know everyone loves Kulie, but if this offer came up, would you do it?

I would think it's better for the B's, as it gives them a legit forward right now in return for Kessel, as well as a decent PMD.

For us, we do end up moving Kulemin, and White is tough to move, but we retain our picks, don't overpay Kessel in salary, and upgrade our forward situation. Also, both are RFA at season's end, so their potential raises would basically figure into Kessel's contract, leaving more room to re-sign others, both now and in the future.

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09-09-2009, 01:18 PM
  #103
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I wouldn't give up to 1st rounders plus a 2nd for Kessel. I would let them sweat it out they will be desperate to trade him when he is ready to come back. I also don't think Boston would match an offer sheet because they would not be aloud to trade him if they match an offer sheet. If I am Brian Burke I offer them a similar package as the value of the offer sheet compensation. If they turn it down and play hard ball then I put in the offer sheet.


Boston will be screwed next year when Lucic is an RFA if they sign Kessel for 5 plus million a year.

My offer

To Boston: 1st in 2010 or 2011, Ian White and a 3rd rounder in 2010
To Toronto: Phil Kessel

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09-09-2009, 01:31 PM
  #104
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If Chia is playing hardball and won't relinquish Kessel for a reasonable deal, I would send out the offer sheet anyways. If Chia matches, so be it. It would probably close the door on Savard re-signing in Boston the following off-season, thereby allowing Burke to sign his #1 centre. Its a win-win for us.

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Originally Posted by BadBruins View Post
I fully understand that. It's the follow up moves involving other players that I'm talking about. If Chiarelli does match, it's likely another RW such as Ryder or Kobasew + that gets shipped out as a result.
Ah, gotcha.

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09-09-2009, 01:31 PM
  #105
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Why Burke hasn't moved on Dubinsky yet is what I'm confused about. Sure, he isn't as proven as Kessel, but he has as much potential, is better in his own end, and would come cheaper. If Burke offered him a 3 million dollar contract, (which would only cost us our 2nd round pick) I think New York would let him go.
So here is the question if the above is true: Would you have traded Stralman and a 3rd for Dubinsky?

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09-09-2009, 01:33 PM
  #106
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Sometimes the best trades are the ones you don't make

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09-09-2009, 01:34 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by richardn View Post
I wouldn't give up to 1st rounders plus a 2nd for Kessel. I would let them sweat it out they will be desperate to trade him when he is ready to come back. I also don't think Boston would match an offer sheet because they would not be aloud to trade him if they match an offer sheet. If I am Brian Burke I offer them a similar package as the value of the offer sheet compensation. If they turn it down and play hard ball then I put in the offer sheet.


Boston will be screwed next year when Lucic is an RFA if they sign Kessel for 5 plus million a year.

My offer

To Boston: 1st in 2010 or 2011, Ian White and a 3rd rounder in 2010
To Toronto: Phil Kessel
Yep, I agree. In fact, I posted a similar trade in another thread. I would much prefer the 1st rounder to be in 2011, but I doubt Chia would agree.

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09-09-2009, 01:34 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post
Why Burke hasn't moved on Dubinsky yet is what I'm confused about. Sure, he isn't as proven as Kessel, but he has as much potential, is better in his own end, and would come cheaper. If Burke offered him a 3 million dollar contract, (which would only cost us our 2nd round pick) I think New York would let him go.
So here is the question if the above is true: Would you have traded Stralman and a 3rd for Dubinsky?
Kessel has a much higher ceiling than Dubinsky, who isn't much of an improvement over Stajan. Little more physical, little more "pizzaz" with the puck, but not much of an upgrade.

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09-09-2009, 01:44 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post
Why Burke hasn't moved on Dubinsky yet is what I'm confused about. Sure, he isn't as proven as Kessel, but he has as much potential, is better in his own end, and would come cheaper. If Burke offered him a 3 million dollar contract, (which would only cost us our 2nd round pick) I think New York would let him go.
So here is the question if the above is true: Would you have traded Stralman and a 3rd for Dubinsky?
GM Burke and GM Sather are best pals and fishing buddies and not likely Burke is going to try and screw him over.

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Old
09-09-2009, 01:45 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
Sometimes the best trades are the ones you don't make
Sometimes the best post is one you don't make. Doesn't stop people from making bad posts. I'm just saying.

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09-09-2009, 01:49 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
Sometimes the best trades are the ones you don't make
You know, I keep having a bad feeling about Kessel.... it must be due to all of the talk about him being selfish, bad defensively, blah, blah, blah. It could also be because, being a Leaf fan, I'm used to being disappointed with whoever we happen to pick up.

In order to overcome these feelings of doubt, I just keep reminding myself that Kessel scored all of those goals last year despite a shoulder injury... and also that, while only 21, he has been able to overcome cancer and still score all of those goals. Finally, I remind myself that the Leafs haven't had a player who could contend for the Rocket Richard trophy for a long, LONG time.

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09-09-2009, 02:08 PM
  #112
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Odds are we aren't going to get a player like Kessel in the draft. Trade the picks, get the 21 year old sniper.

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09-09-2009, 02:21 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
Sometimes the best trades are the ones you don't make
so it's not a trade..

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Old
09-09-2009, 02:24 PM
  #114
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i keep hearing ppl say instead of trading 3 picks, trade 2 players and a pick, someone like Kulemin and White, but that's like trading 3 picks anyway, except there aren't any gurantees the picks will turn out to be good players, and we already know that White and Kulemin can play and have potential, so why trade players we know can play, instaed pf overrated picks that we don't know will even help for sure, TRADE THE PICKS FOR A PROVEN YOUNG SNIPER

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09-09-2009, 02:26 PM
  #115
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my mouth waters when i think of:

Kessel - Grabovski - Hagman

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09-09-2009, 02:31 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by ripseantaylor21 View Post
my mouth waters when i think of:

Kessel - Grabovski - Hagman
I would like to get a physical presence on that line....and I don't think Grabovski is the most natural playmaker out there.

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09-09-2009, 02:32 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by ripseantaylor21 View Post
my mouth waters when i think of:

Kessel - Grabovski - Hagman
No way... in a few years;

Tlusty - Kadri - Kessel


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09-09-2009, 02:39 PM
  #118
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I would like to get a physical presence on that line.....
........Or someone who actually likes making a pass before they dangle 3 players. I agree that Grabs isn't a playmaker, but it's worsened by the fact all 3 of them are puck carriers who prefer to gain the zone with the puck on their stick.

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Old
09-09-2009, 02:53 PM
  #119
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After Burkes recient statements on TSN I agree with you! but I disagree with your time line. I believe that Burke hopes players like Poni, Stajan, Tulsty, Stalberg, White, etc. have a great start to the season. The value of them will go up and then he can make a trade for Kessel rather then an offer sheet. He won't want to give up the first rounder. Remember Kessel is out till November and won't be at training camp with out a contract. Lots of time for things to develop.
True, but Burke also said that it's a day to day thing so I view it as if Burke is sort of pressuring Chiarelli to make a decision which is good. Burke has a bit of leverage here too IMO. Now it is true that Chiarelli has until Decemebr to sign him, but he's out until at least mid November from his surgery and won't be coming to camp without a contract. Plus when the season starts who's to say Kessel is all of a sudden going to come off his asking price. This to me is sort of like the Roy Halladay situation, he could've gotten the most for him at the draft with Kaberle and something else, now it's going to be draft picks and a player like White. If he waits, and waits and waits the value of Kessel in a trade goes down and the liklihood of a offer sheet goes up. Remember, yes there is dialogue between Burke and Chiarelli but Burke isn't going to be all mister nice guy through all of this. Right now, he's saying the right things but as September rolls through and there's still no deal for Kessel, Burke isn't just going to wait it out. He'll take action and make an offer sheet. Right now he won't, but I think he will, if Chiarelli and him can't get a trade done.


Last edited by Stats01: 09-09-2009 at 03:07 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old
09-09-2009, 03:08 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by embracedbias View Post
You know, I keep having a bad feeling about Kessel.... it must be due to all of the talk about him being selfish, bad defensively, blah, blah, blah. It could also be because, being a Leaf fan, I'm used to being disappointed with whoever we happen to pick up.

In order to overcome these feelings of doubt, I just keep reminding myself that Kessel scored all of those goals last year despite a shoulder injury... and also that, while only 21, he has been able to overcome cancer and still score all of those goals. Finally, I remind myself that the Leafs haven't had a player who could contend for the Rocket Richard trophy for a long, LONG time.
While those are all possibilties and he might very well become a franchise player. I just hope Optimism doesnt blind them from making a smart move. It potentially could boil down to, Kessel for potentially 2 star players (draft picks), while draft picks could turn into 2 busts or players that become nothing spectacular as most of you are so quick to point out. Its just as logical to assume they turn into stars or very effective players (which many dont acknowlege).

If we get him I hope its for the right price, but as you have previously said, History is not kind to us.

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Old
09-09-2009, 03:26 PM
  #121
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GM Burke and GM Sather are best pals and fishing buddies and not likely Burke is going to try and screw him over.
I side with Burke when it comes to offer sheets. As long as they are done up front (as Burke is doing with Kessel) I see no problem using the rules of the CBA to improve one's team. The Penner situation was a sneak attack which upset Burke. I am sure that Sather and Regier are also well aware of what Burke has in mind re his re-acquiring the 2nd round pick.

It may still be viewed as screwing over but in a much nicer way.

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Old
09-09-2009, 03:31 PM
  #122
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The biggest asset the Leafs have is cap space, and Boston doesn't have any choice with that..

You're right with that. But because a team has space, doesn't mean Boston is just going to ship off one of their marquee guys for peanuts.


Derek Morris was good offensively 10 years ago. Kaberle is a huge upgrade over Morris.

No arguments there, Kaberle is defiently better than Morris, though Boston already has their D set, sure, they could take Kaberle and be forced to move someone else (my guess Ference) and have a VERY scary top 4 D of Chara-Wideman, Morris- Kaberle... but still I just do not think Kaberle is peice Boston is interested anymore, because the trade at the draft was kiaboshed, Chia has already addressed the puck moving dman with Morris



This move would not surprise me, but I'm very hopeful it would not happen.

I agree... I do not see it happening, but with some additions here and there I think this is the deal that can be made would love to know MORE leaf fans opinion of a Kessel for Schenn straight up deal, or what would be needed to make the deal work?


Tlusty and Kulemin have the salary that Boston would want, and waiver eligability which gives them flexibility.

True... but still... its like making a deal with an esikmo...they are offering one of their prized possession... lets say some seal skin or something, a rare commodity which is coveted by many people... but in return, your giving ice... something that is plenty and the eskimos have no use for... maybe thats a bad example, but I am trying to paint a picture here, that Tlusty and Kulemin just wouldn't fit in Beantown and not what they would want in return for Kessel because there is no need for those players in boston


The salary cap may be the determining factor. Of course there is no loss to Burke if the deal is matched. He just sits back and waits to see what else is available to him.

For sure, some other poster speculated, perhaps its a move so that Boston signs Kessel and than forced to move someone (Kobasew) who seems to be the type of player BB would want... than again Chia and Burkie are supposed to be friends... maybe they are cooking something else up behind closed doors... (speculating again here)



Seems about the right money, but I'd bet it will be 5 years.

I don't see the 5 year deal, because that will eat up 1 year of UFA... I mean it could happen, but look at the deal people get their first year of UFA (J-Bow good example) its their lotto ticket and time to cash in. I see it being a 3-4 years... if I was the GM I would be gunning for the 3 years, because as mentioned, still 1 year left of RFA after the contract expires, which leaves for compensation if another offer sheet happened, VS the 5 year deal where the player is UFA and you get nothing back (kind of like the deal Jeff Carter signed last year)


It is too late for Burke to tank. If he was willing to go that route, Kaberle would be gone, and Komi and Beauch would not be here.

well, those guys are building blocks for future (not so much Beauch) and I am not trying to be negative here, even if the leafs do aquire Kessel (he cannot play till december) I do not see them as a playoff team THIS YEAR... so why try and go for that 9th spot again, when you can take another year to re-load and be fully ready next year??

Either way, I am rather anxeious to see what happens here... as a fan of the bruins, personally I would want this... Burke send an offer sheet of 4.5-5mil or so for 3-4 years...Boston matches... Boston than trades Kobasew and Ferrence or Ryder to make room. In my eyes...

Kessel >>>> Ryder

Kessel >>>> than Kobasew and Ferrence

Kessel>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1st, 2nd, 3rd (compensation of offer sheet)


So either A) Burke ponies up and knocks CHIA socks off with a great offer... or

B) He over pays an amount (5.5+) a year to kessel so boston won't dare sign... or

C) nothing at all happens and this is all scare tactics in order to help get trade talks moving

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Old
09-09-2009, 03:37 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
While those are all possibilties and he might very well become a franchise player. I just hope Optimism doesnt blind them from making a smart move. It potentially could boil down to, Kessel for potentially 2 star players (draft picks), while draft picks could turn into 2 busts or players that become nothing spectacular as most of you are so quick to point out. Its just as logical to assume they turn into stars or very effective players (which many dont acknowlege).

If we get him I hope its for the right price, but as you have previously said, History is not kind to us.
No, it isn't. Draft picks rarely ever become star players. Sometimes they do, but rarely. (what was the percent that was posted? something like .7% or 7%)

You have to deal with it in terms of likelihood. The likelihood that one of our first three picks in 2010 turns out to be better than Phil Kessel is quite low. This is obvious.

You, like myself, seem to be apprehensive about giving up the draft picks. Its a respectable position. However, don't fool yourself into thinking that your apprehension is fueled by anything but emotional preference for a certain type of team-building. Don't take offense to this - I am the same way. It doesn't feel right trading away draft picks at this point in time... reason doesn't enter into the equation unless you really want it to. In fact, even if you do think about it reasonably, there is no guarantee that you can overcome your aversion.

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09-09-2009, 03:40 PM
  #124
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I agree... I do not see it happening, but with some additions here and there I think this is the deal that can be made would love to know MORE leaf fans opinion of a Kessel for Schenn straight up deal, or what would be needed to make the deal work?
Brian Burke to lose his mind.

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Old
09-09-2009, 03:41 PM
  #125
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I wouldn't like Schenn for Kessel, although to be honest it would probably be a good deal for the leafs.

The issue is that schenn has been built up by us, and a little by burke, as a major piece of the leafs moving forward. Kind of like our young face of the franchise, although not nearly as prominent as others in similar situations (ie - tavares).

I also wouldn't be happy to see Tlusty or Kulemin go. Specifically Tlusty because we don't really know what he's capable of doing in the NHL quite yet and it's very likely that this year will be the first that we really see what he can do. I also like kulemin and think he'll be improved enough to be a big contributor moving forward.

I'd be much more comfortable moving defense guys and picks. I love white, but would see his being traded as a necessary evil if it meant getting kessel, along with sending some picks. I also really like Van Ryn, although it's not like he's been healthy for a full season with us, so I haven't had the time to get too attached to him.

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