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AAA11 Playoff Challenge: Prague Bartenders vs. Dawson City Nuggets

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Old
09-12-2009, 03:15 AM
  #1
VanIslander
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AAA11 Playoff Challenge: Prague Bartenders vs. Dawson City Nuggets

Prague Bartenders

coach: Ivan Hlinka

Danny Lewicki - Vladimir Ruzicka (A) - Viktor Shalimov
Jim Riley - Otakar Janecky - Billy Barlow
Jack McIntyre - Ted Hampson (C) - Yuri Lebedev
Buzz Boll - Raimo Helminen (A) - Joe Benoit

Jim McKenny - Albert Langlois
Joe Cooper - Lubomir Visnovsky
Rod Flett - Konnie Johannesson
Keith Carney

Seth Martin
F.S. Stocking


vs.


Dawson City Nuggets

coaches: Jacques Martin, Lloyd Percival

Real Chevrefils - Anatoli Semenov - Sergei Svetlov
Jozef Stumpel - Vyacheslav Anisin - Mark Johnson (A)
Jan Erixon - Jude Drouin - Glenn Brydson
Edmond Bouchard - Alf Pike (A) - Billy Bell
Ethan Moreau, Chris Nilan

Igor Stelnov - Sergei Starikov
Karel Gut (C) - Bert Marshall
Leo Reise Sr. - Bob Trapp

Kelly Hrudey
Jose Theodore


Last edited by VanIslander: 09-13-2009 at 09:27 PM.
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Old
09-12-2009, 03:19 AM
  #2
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Prague comes to the playoff match-up short two extra skaters. So be it.

Dawson City has a slight advantage due to positional flexibility and hence depth.

Note: Any captaincy change recommendations for the Nuggets wil be taken seriously. The above is just for starters, reflects the long term captaincy of Gut and the multiple team captaincy and leadership of Johnson. Chevrefils may not be an ideal alternate captain, but he is well liked by teammates and that can help.

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09-12-2009, 05:01 AM
  #3
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An Assassination of the Top Line in Prague

Tenacious Lewicki is fast and occasionally effective driving to the net but really only had one great NHL season and three or four good seasons interspersed with AHL duty, and has 0 goals in 28 NHL postseason games so really is miscast on this team, unreliable for top line duty but a decent depth option on the back lines.

Ruzicka is slow and defensively lazy also had just one incredible NHL season, really his only full season over five years in the league, but - unlike Lewicki - he had playoff success: his 13 points in the Bruins explosive 1991 postseason was 4th in team scoring in their march to the Conference Finals. His dominance in the Czech league is beside the point. His 10 points in the 1984 Olympics was significant (20 pts over 21 games in three Olympics), though he followed that up with 0 points in 5 Canada Cup games later that year. He bounced back with more than a point per game in the 1985 and 1986 World Championships then returned to the Canada Cup in 1987 and scored two points in 6 games, both goals. In 1989 he again had a great world championships. His scoring was inconsistent in the highest levels of competition. It's hard to believe that any all-time team would want to rely on him to produce offense consistently on the top line.

Shalimov is the gem of the line and the 1st overall pick of this draft has done it all and consistently enough for top line duty on this, and perhaps even a MLD level team. He scored 66 goals over ten years on the Soviet national team and while only a few were against Canada, many were against the talented 1970s Czechoslovakian team, he had two peaks near the beginning and end of his career: starring in the 1975 and 1982 world championships and twice considered a Soviet league all-star, in1976 leading all USSR scorers and in 1982 finishing top-5 in scoring.

So, Shalimov will be skating with a slow, defensively lazy pivot who has spurts of brilliance against highest level competition and a fast, determined, net-crashing AHL call-up who is capable of scoring but not a clutch producer. At their best, this line will work if Lewicki can screen the goalie and/or draw away a defenseman, Ruzicka can play up high with the puck and Shalimov skate to openings for shots.

Expect odd-man rushes against as turnovers happen with Ruzicka heading back a step or two behind the play, Lewicki caught in the crease traffic and Shalimov hustling to backcheck as the Soviets are trained ad infinitum to do.

The Nuggets have a competitve advantage when it comes to first lines in this series.

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09-12-2009, 05:39 AM
  #4
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Two lesser lights and a brilliant star on the biggest stage

Jim Riley, the PCHA all-star left winger, is like Lewicki in his postseason of scoring, registering 0 goals in 9 Stanley Cup games over two challenge series. That said, he did score a goal twice in 5 PCHA postseasons, 5 points in 10 league playoff games, so he can produce a bit. He's a solid second line winger at this level of competition.

Janecky, the Czech star center in the Finn league, had two good Olympics, scoring 7 points in 8 games each time, helping his nation win Bronze in 1992. He had a 'not bad' 18 points in 32 world championship games over four tourneys. He is at best an extra skater on any champion-quality team at the AAA11 level.

Barlow, the first-ever Stanley Cup championship GWG scorer in 1894, was a renowned skater, able to turn corners, deke past opponents, and without the puck backskate brilliantly, shadowing his opposing winger with what appears to be elite positional defense ability. He seems to belong on any 2nd line around here.

No competitive advantage here, as Barlow will have to do the bulk of playoff scoring all by himself on this line. Expect Barlow to have his opportunities offensively, to make a difference in at least one game, and to be up to the challenge to match the opposing Nugget Chevrefils in terms of skills. Barlow vs. Chevrefils would be a treat to see! This line will score easiest when Barlow goes 2nd line against 2nd line, from Barlow blowing past Stumpel then making a move on a dman for a shot. However, the rest of the second line just hasn't the playoff juice at this level compared to the Nuggets second liners Anisin and Johnson, each of whom were stars in multiple games against the very best. The Bartenders' second line hasn't the physicality to exploit the physical weakness of Anisin. Expect the Nuggets second line to move the puck around effectively and at least match Prague in scoring in this series.

The second lines are a wash in head to head play.

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09-12-2009, 06:27 AM
  #5
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A Crash Bang Great Third Line in Prague

Dang! Dawson City will get spanked by this line.

McIntyre, the rushing left winger with six decent scoring seasons in a decade of 1950s NHL play, had one very good NHL playoffs, tied for 3rd in Bruins goals in their 1953 Stanley Cup finals run. Otherwise he just had a goal in each of three other postseasons. But he is 'defensive minded' and so is a decent third liner in this draft.

Hampson, "the Tic", is an underrated all-time great, perfectly at home on the back line of any MLD11 team and as good as it gets in terms of AAA11 3rd line pivots. He was twice top-10 in NHL assists, he won the Masterton for all the right reasons (his play on the ice) and is a lead-by-example NHL captain worthy of the 'C' for Prague. His speed and hounding ability will be his biggest assets in playoff play. He once scored 7 points in a long first round playoff series, tying then teammate (now rival Nugget) Bert Marshall for 2nd in Seals postseason scoring that year.

Lebedev, the physical winger on the Kid Line that was centered by (now opponent Nugget) Anisin, had the longest career by far of any from that line, playing nine years on the Soviet national team (1972-81), after scoring 4 points in the '72 Summit Series and taking penalties against Canada for roughing, highsticking and misconduct. He also scored 4 points in the lesser-renowned '74 Summit Series against the WHA best. He was on six world championship gold-medal winning Soviet teams. His 399 points in 473 Soviet league games aren't as significant as his 443 PIM. He was "a fighting spirit behind the successes of his line and had great stick handling skills. He was one of the most respected forwards in Soviet hockey... a technically excellent player who was key to his line's offense. He had uncanny on-ice vision and was dangerous on one-on-one situations... an aggressive and passionate grinder..." There are main ATD fourth line right wingers he could beat out for a starting position.

A clear advantage to Prague in terms of third line defensive ability in this series.

However, offensively, Dawson City's third liner Drouin matches Lebedev because the Nugget pivot had a productive 68 points in 72 NHL playoff games and twice finished top-10 in regular season assists per game. Neither team's third line offensive threat will get much help from linemates though Lebedev's center prove to be a slight advantage over any of Drouin's wingers.

No real advantage in terms of third line offensive ability in this series.

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09-12-2009, 07:14 AM
  #6
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A Decent Double-A Line in a AAA Series

Buzz Boll fits right in on a Prague team of offensive one year wonders. His defensive abilities aren't as exceptional as Barlow, Hampson or Lebedev but his long, consistent two-way NHL career makes him a natural fourth line pick in the AAA11 and a depth option for the second units in special teams play.

Raimo Helminen was promising more than productive in his only near full season of NHL work, finishing in a three-way tie for 7th in Rangers scoring, only dressing for two of New York's 16 playoff run games that 1986 postseason. He had been nearly a point per game in the 1985 world championships and repeated the near point per game feat in 1994 and 1995, otherwise more of a secondary scorer over a long time, with 8 goals, 43 assists in 77 world championship contests. He was a great scorer in 2 of his 5 Olympics - his one real achievement - though he only got 3 assists in Canada Cup '87 and one assist in World Cup '96. He is a Double-A talent and AAA11 extra skater. He might be able to handle his own with fourth line duty in this series, but question marks exist about him being more than a marginal scorer at a high level of competition. His skating and passing might be assets here if he had wingers to make something of opportunities he'd generate.

Joe Benoit, the 1939 Smoke Eaters world champion legend, had a fantastic two seasons in three years (1941-43) of a little over four year NHL career, including two productive though short playoffs. He is an ideal secondary scorer in the AAA11, and ought to produce - and be required to produce - for a Prague team with question marks in terms of offensive chemistry; to wit, Helminen to Benoit might be more effective than what either top two line Bartender pivots might be able to produce in this series, certainly better than Janecky.

The Stanley Cup champion-laden checking fourth line of Dawson City ought to have no problem against the back line of Prague. Moreover, since the Nuggets best penalty killers only see fourth line minutes, they ought to be more rested for penalty killing duty, offsetting much of though not all the advantage the exceptional 2nd liner Barlow and third liners Hampson and Lebedev have in terms of pk ability.

No real advantage to either team in terms of fourth line play.

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09-12-2009, 07:37 AM
  #7
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So, to recap so far: The Nuggets have a clear edge in first line scoring and the Bartenders have exceptional third line defensive ability, so in games in Prague the two negate each other, leaving no advantage. In Dawson City, however, the Nuggets can keep the Prague third line away from the Nuggets top line, and no other Bartender line can handle them, as at best Barlow matches with Chevrefils, with no one among the Prague forwards other than its third line able to shutdown Semenov and Svetlov.

Will coaching help?

It's peak vs. career in this series as Hlinka has the 1998 Olympic gold medal win over Canada, of which he has said: "It doesn't happen very often at us but we had a bigger will to win than Canada had.” He also had a world championship gold the next year. His three Olympic bronze medals are also notable. Hlinka had the best goalie in the world at the time in two-time Hart trophy winner Hasek on his game, the Bartenders have Seth Martin, a near equivalent at this level? *shrug* The Nuggets surely have a coach who's had a long career of regular season success but lacking the championship difference, though the role of coaching come playoff time is debatable. Besides, the Dawson City coach is defensive oriented, and defense wins championships they say. More to the point, the Nuggets have an assistant coach that offsets the experience differential with superior training and fitness. Coaching advantage to the Nuggets early in the series, and to the Bartenders if it goes down to a deciding seventh game.

No clear advantage either way in terms of boosting offensive line production from the coaches.
Slight advantage to the Nuggets in terms of coached disciplined defensive play by the forwards.

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09-12-2009, 08:37 AM
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I am so pisssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssed offfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff!

I just made the longest, best post of this thread, going through both bluelines pairing by pairing, comparing them to each other plus to how defenses contribute to offense - one long passionate hour of great stuff

and i lost it all with an errant %&*%*&%*(()& click of my mouse about three lines from the end

it's 1035pm here i am tired and so upset i'm taking tomorrow off. i dunno what i'll do. i'll go take a shower and hope i can go to sleep now

what was supposed to be the crowning effort to aloow me to sleep away in comfort and satisfaction at work well done has turned into a ^&*^*&%&*% nightmare

g'night

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09-12-2009, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Prague comes to the playoff match-up short two extra skaters. So be it.

Dawson City has a slight advantage due to positional flexibility and hence depth.

Note: Any captaincy change recommendations for the Nuggets wil be taken seriously. The above is just for starters, reflects the long term captaincy of Gut and the multiple team captaincy and leadership of Johnson. Chevrefils may not be an ideal alternate captain, but he is well liked by teammates and that can help.
Chevrefils had a drinking problem and I get the impression he was a soft, one-dimensional player. I would choose just about anyone else over him to wear an A.

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09-12-2009, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
I am so pisssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssed offfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff!

I just made the longest, best post of this thread, going through both bluelines pairing by pairing, comparing them to each other plus to how defenses contribute to offense - one long passionate hour of great stuff

and i lost it all with an errant %&*%*&%*(()& click of my mouse about three lines from the end

it's 1035pm here i am tired and so upset i'm taking tomorrow off. i dunno what i'll do. i'll go take a shower and hope i can go to sleep now

what was supposed to be the crowning effort to aloow me to sleep away in comfort and satisfaction at work well done has turned into a ^&*^*&%&*% nightmare

g'night
I &^%$%^& hate when that happens, dude. It's the worst thing ever. It's happened to me at least 10 times before.

Do you have that little side button on the mouse that takes you back a page in IE? So handy, yet so annoying when you hit it by accident.

The old "trying to switch IE tabs but hit the ebay toolbar button instead" fiasco has reared its ugly head over here a few times, too.

I've found that firefox, for whatever reason, tends to save what you have typed if you happen to go back or accidentally hit a link you don't want to hit.

Also, anytime I'm writing something that gets a bit long, I copy it into notepad and save it there, just in case.

I bloody hate losing an hour of my life for nothing.

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09-12-2009, 06:25 PM
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There are main ATD fourth line right wingers he could beat out for a starting position.
How do you compare him to Loktev? just curious.

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09-13-2009, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
How do you compare him to Loktev? just curious.
They are both Soviet 'tough' 'aggressive' right wingers who were renowned for their deking ability, each with names starting with 'L'. And both are top-50 Soviets all time.

That's where the comparison ends.

Lebedev appears to have been more physical, penalty-happy of the two, playing a significant, but secondary role on an impressive six world championship gold medal winning '70s teams after his performances on the Kid Line in the Summit Series. Although he had "uncanny on-ice vision and was dangerous on one-on-one situations..." the best description of him seems to be: "an aggressive and passionate grinder". I think he's capable of main draft play as a fourth liner.

Loktev was smaller and more disciplined, renowned for his rough play in puck pursuit along the boards more than his efforts to take the body, and more importantly was a top line player, in fact, on one of the greatest lines in Soviet hockey history, with Alexandrov and Almetov (no effective but secondary Kid line! in fact, Loktev's greatest peaks came as a veteran at the end of his career), himself named top forward at the 1966 world championships in his second consecutive tourney all-star appearance and third consecutive worlds gold on the top line, having been IIHF top scorer way back in 1957 before joining the all-time great line. I think Loktev an arguable though marginal 2nd liner and a clear extra skater option in the highest level of all-time competition and the only logical reason he could at all fall out of the main ATD altogether would be question marks about 1960s Soviet hockey, though given other greats always drafted from that decade, he seems more than worthy.

Loktev only won three world championships but he was a star in those wins whereas Lebedev won six world championships as a secondary scorer and physical presence.

And, if one wants to consider Soviet league play (which I usually don't like to count on for much until the AAA level), Loktev was the Soviets top scorer in 1959 and a four time all-star (1957-60) and won ten national championships. He clearly had a superior level of offensive talent compared to the more role-playing Lebedev who was "one of the most respected forwards in Soviet hockey... a technically excellent player who was key to his line's offense" but not a top line, offensive-oriented only player.

In conclusion, I'd say that Loktev is a top-6 player in an all-time context whereas Lebedev is a bottom-6 guy, and if both were to be fourth liners in a main ATD their roles would be a bit different, Loktev needing and complementing scoring linemates whereas Lebedev could play with two-way checking liners to form an agitating energy line.


Last edited by VanIslander: 09-13-2009 at 09:47 PM.
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09-13-2009, 09:36 PM
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Chevrefils had a drinking problem and I get the impression he was a soft, one-dimensional player. I would choose just about anyone else over him to wear an A.
Opps. Forgot about his drinking and indeed coach Martin wouldn't like his lack of defensive responsibility.

Alf Pike seems like a good candidate to be an alternate captain since he captained a team to a professional hockey championship (in the minors), won championships in four different leagues and was described as "extremely popular".

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09-13-2009, 11:57 PM
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They are both Soviet 'tough' 'aggressive' right wingers who were renowned for their deking ability, each with names starting with 'L'. And both are top-50 Soviets all time.

That's where the comparison ends.

Lebedev appears to have been more physical, penalty-happy of the two, playing a significant, but secondary role on an impressive six world championship gold medal winning '70s teams after his performances on the Kid Line in the Summit Series. Although he had "uncanny on-ice vision and was dangerous on one-on-one situations..." the best description of him seems to be: "an aggressive and passionate grinder". I think he's capable of main draft play as a fourth liner.

Loktev was smaller and more disciplined, renowned for his rough play in puck pursuit along the boards more than his efforts to take the body, and more importantly was a top line player, in fact, on one of the greatest lines in Soviet hockey history, with Alexandrov and Almetov (no effective but secondary Kid line! in fact, Loktev's greatest peaks came as a veteran at the end of his career), himself named top forward at the 1966 world championships in his second consecutive tourney all-star appearance and third consecutive worlds gold on the top line, having been IIHF top scorer way back in 1957 before joining the all-time great line. I think Loktev an arguable though marginal 2nd liner and a clear extra skater option in the highest level of all-time competition and the only logical reason he could at all fall out of the main ATD altogether would be question marks about 1960s Soviet hockey, though given other greats always drafted from that decade, he seems more than worthy.

Loktev only won three world championships but he was a star in those wins whereas Lebedev won six world championships as a secondary scorer and physical presence.

And, if one wants to consider Soviet league play (which I usually don't like to count on for much until the AAA level), Loktev was the Soviets top scorer in 1959 and a four time all-star (1957-60) and won ten national championships. He clearly had a superior level of offensive talent compared to the more role-playing Lebedev who was "one of the most respected forwards in Soviet hockey... a technically excellent player who was key to his line's offense" but not a top line, offensive-oriented only player.

In conclusion, I'd say that Loktev is a top-6 player in an all-time context whereas Lebedev is a bottom-6 guy, and if both were to be fourth liners in a main ATD their roles would be a bit different, Loktev needing and complementing scoring linemates whereas Lebedev could play with two-way checking liners to form an agitating energy line.
Hmmm, nice analysis. Much more favourable regarding Loktev than I even thought you'd be.

So how on earth did I end up getting Loktev on my MLD 4th line? I (kinda secretly) thought Loktev was a bit of an embarrassment of riches down there, the classic "player with the talent for a bigger role but with the skillset for the bottom 6" that I covet so much.

Why did you not take him as an extra in the main draft, or at least as a scoring winger in the MLD before I could get him way later?

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09-14-2009, 04:24 AM
  #15
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So how on earth did I end up getting Loktev on my MLD 4th line? ... Why did you not take him as an extra in the main draft, or at least as a scoring winger in the MLD before I could get him way later?
I did draft him, and he was on the FIRST line, of the MLD10 championship team Oxford Dark Blues!!! he as Malecek's right winger on the team that beat YOUR Regina team in the finals, don't you remember? My co-GM Nalyd Psycho wanted Malecek and I really wanted Loktev and we both agreed on Richer, a successful trio in the MLD it turned out, each bringing something a bit different to the line.

Why didn't I draft him once again this draft? because I made my argument for him that time, marshalled my evidence, and wanted to wait and see how fall he would fall (like with Billy Gilmour ). I do that a lot. I try on principle to draft new guys and of course sometimes re-draft guys others just keep overlooking, as sometimes I just can't resist, like with Jason Arnott falling to the AAA level, I just had to get him then, even though I resisted the temptation to draft him as an extra forward in MLD11 (he'd started as 3rd line centre on the MLD10 Dark Blues).

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09-14-2009, 10:54 AM
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I did draft him, and he was on the FIRST line, of the MLD10 championship team Oxford Dark Blues!!! he as Malecek's right winger on the team that beat YOUR Regina team in the finals, don't you remember? My co-GM Nalyd Psycho wanted Malecek and I really wanted Loktev and we both agreed on Richer, a successful trio in the MLD it turned out, each bringing something a bit different to the line.

Why didn't I draft him once again this draft? because I made my argument for him that time, marshalled my evidence, and wanted to wait and see how fall he would fall (like with Billy Gilmour ). I do that a lot. I try on principle to draft new guys and of course sometimes re-draft guys others just keep overlooking, as sometimes I just can't resist, like with Jason Arnott falling to the AAA level, I just had to get him then, even though I resisted the temptation to draft him as an extra forward in MLD11 (he'd started as 3rd line centre on the MLD10 Dark Blues).
Ahh, I see. I had a feeling based on your picks this time around, that that's how you roll.

This answers my question that I asked via PM prematurely...

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09-26-2009, 12:22 AM
  #17
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Dawson City shocks Prague in 6 games

1. Real Chevrefils
2. Anatoli Semenov
3. Jim Riley

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