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Zherdev signs with Atlant of KHL (post 233)

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Old
09-15-2009, 10:10 AM
  #201
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
I think Torts wanted Antropov and might even ask for him just to see what is he like. That was his "unfinished business" that ended once the curiosity was satisfied. Absence of Antropov will be felt since he was the large piece of improvement to the team Slats was so successful at last deadline. The rest of the players were purged from the team because Torts wanted no one associated with Renney whether they were coaches or players as long as Sather was able to get them out. Zherdev was one of them. Besides that, Z was an intelligent guy that would not fit into the "system" where coach is the only one who is allowed possession of such a quality. The rest must buzz around hard to execute his will.
At first Sather didn't want to to rid of Zherdev mostly because he didn't see the way to replace him at the time, plus Heatley could be had for Z no matter how "insulted" Murray was with such suggestion. Torts seemed to be able to sit Zherdev into admission should he be with the team. Hence the QO was issued. The amount offered was a little below Zherdev's actual worth of 3.5 million, but Zherdev's camp caught the bait and went all the way to arbitration allowing Sather time not only sign Gaborik, but find Kotalik as well as Lisin and Prospal. Zherdev still has time to sign with NHL club, no one needs him in training camp, but his career may be in jeopardy just because it so happens that Gomez conspired against Renney and had Tom fired very much the way Messier did while in VAN. With Renney Zherdev would be just fine. So would Rangers and myself.
Did you have Oliver Stone write that for you?

Zherdev is not with the Rangers because he overplayed his hand and lost...badly I might add. Enough with the conspiracy theories.

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09-15-2009, 10:30 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
I think Torts wanted Antropov and might even ask for him just to see what is he like. That was his "unfinished business" that ended once the curiosity was satisfied. Absence of Antropov will be felt since he was the large piece of improvement to the team Slats was so successful at last deadline. The rest of the players were purged from the team because Torts wanted no one associated with Renney whether they were coaches or players as long as Sather was able to get them out. Zherdev was one of them. Besides that, Z was an intelligent guy that would not fit into the "system" where coach is the only one who is allowed possession of such a quality. The rest must buzz around hard to execute his will.
At first Sather didn't want to to rid of Zherdev mostly because he didn't see the way to replace him at the time, plus Heatley could be had for Z no matter how "insulted" Murray was with such suggestion. Torts seemed to be able to sit Zherdev into admission should he be with the team. Hence the QO was issued. The amount offered was a little below Zherdev's actual worth of 3.5 million, but Zherdev's camp caught the bait and went all the way to arbitration allowing Sather time not only sign Gaborik, but find Kotalik as well as Lisin and Prospal. Zherdev still has time to sign with NHL club, no one needs him in training camp, but his career may be in jeopardy just because it so happens that Gomez conspired against Renney and had Tom fired very much the way Messier did while in VAN. With Renney Zherdev would be just fine. So would Rangers and myself.


I've got to admit. You do make me laugh sometimes 94.

Thinking of a book title: 'The victimization of Nikolai Zherdev: How one hockey player broke out of the infamous Rangers prison camp'. Your above post could serve as a brief outline for it.

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09-15-2009, 10:36 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post

Zherdev is not with the Rangers because he overplayed his hand and lost...badly I might add.
I don't think he did lose as mush as Rangers. We got a dysfunctional group of plumbers with one brittle superstar. My only hope is for Higgins to jump back and for Lisin to show up. Otherwise we must play a defensive hockey the coach has little clue about.

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09-15-2009, 10:51 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
I don't think he did lose as mush as Rangers. We got a dysfunctional group of plumbers with one brittle superstar.
Then it's a lose/lose proposition. The Rangers, as you've outlined them, have three problems:

1. They're a dysfunctional group. How you know this I have no clue, but I sincerely hope you don't mean to suggest that Nik Zherdev would solve an issue of dysfunctionality. If you have ANYTHING to suggest Zherdev has the ability to transform a dysfunctional team into a functional, by all means bring it. The fact is, though, that there's nothing to support such a claim, and since he wouldn't solve that issue, he does not deserve a place on the team based on that problem.

2. It's a "group of plumbers." I think that a bit extreme but I'd be the first to say this team is in poor offensive shape. At the same time, Zherdev doesn't solve the problem of scoring. If this team is a team of plumbers, so was last year's, and Zherdev couldn't cure that team's offensive woes. Far from it, he was dragged down by them.

3. They have a brittle superstar. Agreed. Now see point two. Zherdev on the roster doesn't address the problem of Gaborik's health.

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09-15-2009, 11:03 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
I think Torts wanted Antropov and might even ask for him just to see what is he like. That was his "unfinished business" that ended once the curiosity was satisfied. Absence of Antropov will be felt since he was the large piece of improvement to the team Slats was so successful at last deadline. The rest of the players were purged from the team because Torts wanted no one associated with Renney whether they were coaches or players as long as Sather was able to get them out. Zherdev was one of them. Besides that, Z was an intelligent guy that would not fit into the "system" where coach is the only one who is allowed possession of such a quality. The rest must buzz around hard to execute his will.
At first Sather didn't want to to rid of Zherdev mostly because he didn't see the way to replace him at the time, plus Heatley could be had for Z no matter how "insulted" Murray was with such suggestion. Torts seemed to be able to sit Zherdev into admission should he be with the team. Hence the QO was issued. The amount offered was a little below Zherdev's actual worth of 3.5 million, but Zherdev's camp caught the bait and went all the way to arbitration allowing Sather time not only sign Gaborik, but find Kotalik as well as Lisin and Prospal. Zherdev still has time to sign with NHL club, no one needs him in training camp, but his career may be in jeopardy just because it so happens that Gomez conspired against Renney and had Tom fired very much the way Messier did while in VAN. With Renney Zherdev would be just fine. So would Rangers and myself.


I actually find the conspiracy theory thought provoking. Nice job!

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09-15-2009, 11:08 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by dedalus View Post
Of course it is. The problem is that you've constructed a "deck" with only two cards: This free agent or that.
I haven't, $ather has. It's the only two real options we were left with at this point. Real as in highly more probable than any other fantasy option.

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This isn't about Sather's decision making. It's about what you've presented as the only options around which he could make a decision. There are other options, therefore you've constructed a false dilemma.
$ather is the GM, I fail to see how it can't be his decision making, him and Torts. It sure as hell is not a couple of posters on hf who decides. Look, I was just trying to make a real question here with connection to reality, instead of: "which center would you like to play with Gaborik; Crosby, Datsyuk or Malkin?"

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You posit that none of the youth is ready for a 3rd or 4th line role so that someone else might move up to the second line. I daresay there's at least one player in Hartford who might usefully take such a spot. Someone has offered Parenteau. Bell might just as easily be used. Likewise someone else might offer that Betts might have been brought back. Another 3rd or 4th ier free agent might have been brought in for far less money. No matter the example, the point remains, the choices for Sather go well beyond the two you offer.
If neither Kotalik or Zherdev are here, we have a gap on a 2nd line spot. That means someone on the 3rd line has to play 2nd line minutes and produce likewise. *cough*Nigel Dawes & Prucha*cough*. I fail to see how that makes the team stronger. I also fail to see how a 1st line AHL player develops more by logging 5 minutes of ice time in NHL on a goon line than 20+ minutes each night in AHL on a scoring line + PP. So with your decision making, our forward corps is even more pathetic and we're choking a reasonably talented prospect, logging 5 minutes a game on the goon line together with Donald Brashear. Congratulations, coach.

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This is non-topical, but I'll bite. To whom do you refer?
Pretty much every young player but the most talented ones. Most franchises aren't nurturing their prospects into NHL because it's cool. And if they're not, they're desperate. We aren't desperate.


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09-15-2009, 11:27 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by dedalus View Post
Then it's a lose/lose proposition. The Rangers, as you've outlined them, have three problems:

1. They're a dysfunctional group. How you know this I have no clue, but I sincerely hope you don't mean to suggest that Nik Zherdev would solve an issue of dysfunctionality. If you have ANYTHING to suggest Zherdev has the ability to transform a dysfunctional team into a functional, by all means bring it. The fact is, though, that there's nothing to support such a claim, and since he wouldn't solve that issue, he does not deserve a place on the team based on that problem.

2. It's a "group of plumbers." I think that a bit extreme but I'd be the first to say this team is in poor offensive shape. At the same time, Zherdev doesn't solve the problem of scoring. If this team is a team of plumbers, so was last year's, and Zherdev couldn't cure that team's offensive woes. Far from it, he was dragged down by them.

3. They have a brittle superstar. Agreed. Now see point two. Zherdev on the roster doesn't address the problem of Gaborik's health.
You are correct plus well articulated, except for some issues you brought it in for the sake of argument. No one can address Gabi health issues. Here goes your 3rd point.

As for 2nd and 1st, Zherdev would be a fill for the gap between Gabi and the rest. Zherdev has never been an ultimate solution you're trying to accuse me of picturing. He was a promise with a solid base. Now we got Kotalik and/or Prospal to fill that gap. They aren't quite plumbers, but they carry no promise either. We gamble on Lisin and Higgins to make this team offense to work. Not only we have no depth, we've got no solid foundation. That is why we are dysfunctional group. Can Torts make it work? At some point, yes. John is a commensurate professional. If not Sather will trade some players here and there. We will not make a playoffs, that's it.

Zherdev is not a playoff berth guarantee. What he could do is to make Torts job of compiling this group into functional team much easier by providing a talent presence on his 2nd line.

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09-15-2009, 11:43 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
You are correct plus well articulated, except for some issues you brought it in for the sake of argument. No one can address Gabi health issues. Here goes your 3rd point.

As for 2nd and 1st, Zherdev would be a fill for the gap between Gabi and the rest. Zherdev has never been an ultimate solution you're trying to accuse me of picturing. He was a promise with a solid base. Now we got Kotalik and/or Prospal to fill that gap. They aren't quite plumbers, but they carry no promise either. We gamble on Lisin and Higgins to make this team offense to work. Not only we have no depth, we've got no solid foundation. That is why we are dysfunctional group. Can Torts make it work? At some point, yes. John is a commensurate professional. If not Sather will trade some players here and there. We will not make a playoffs, that's it.

Zherdev is not a playoff berth guarantee. What he could do is to make Torts job of compiling this group into functional team much easier by providing a talent presence on his 2nd line.
I really hope this team shuts you the hell up and I never have to see a post from you again about nik zherdev. You are extremely underestimating guys like Higgins and Prospal who have something to play for this year. Especially higgins who is in his contract year.

Your conspiracy theories are outrageous and absolutely psychotic in every way. You continually blame torts for everything which quite honestly is getting a bit played out, especially when YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE BLAMING TORTS FOR THE DEPARTURE OF ZHERDEV. Zherdev didnt get ice time because he wasnt performing, plain and simple. He pouted when he struggled and crawled into a corner instead of maturing and fighting through it by hustling every shift.

After the season, there was no secret meeting where torts told sather to get rid of the most talented player on the roster. The rangers made him a qualifying offer so obviously they were willing to take him back, and contrary to what you think, they were not looking to get rid of him. If zherdev would've accepted he'd be on the team right now, but instead he got bad advice and look where that got him. He came crawling back looking for that qualifying offer and sather rightfully so rejected him.

And there are plenty of players that are still around from renney's regime. They got rid of gomez because he underperformed. Maybe he didnt fit in here but you cant wait around for him to get it going. Naslund retired. Mara and Morris were let go because our prospects that we are so high on are knocking on the door for a roster spot. Betts and sjostrom are gone because we have prospects that are ready for those jobs as well. You're just looking for somewhere to blame because even though you claim zherdev isnt the answer to our problems, you certainly make him seem that way with all the accusations you come up with in your little head of yours.

Zherdev is gone and its his own fault, get over it.

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09-15-2009, 11:57 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by dedalus View Post
Then it's a lose/lose proposition. The Rangers, as you've outlined them, have three problems:

1. They're a dysfunctional group. How you know this I have no clue, but I sincerely hope you don't mean to suggest that Nik Zherdev would solve an issue of dysfunctionality. If you have ANYTHING to suggest Zherdev has the ability to transform a dysfunctional team into a functional, by all means bring it. The fact is, though, that there's nothing to support such a claim, and since he wouldn't solve that issue, he does not deserve a place on the team based on that problem.

2. It's a "group of plumbers." I think that a bit extreme but I'd be the first to say this team is in poor offensive shape. At the same time, Zherdev doesn't solve the problem of scoring. If this team is a team of plumbers, so was last year's, and Zherdev couldn't cure that team's offensive woes. Far from it, he was dragged down by them.

3. They have a brittle superstar. Agreed. Now see point two. Zherdev on the roster doesn't address the problem of Gaborik's health.
Nor does Zherdev provide for a healthy superstar

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09-15-2009, 12:45 PM
  #210
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Nor does Zherdev provide for a healthy superstar
Yup. You've said more precisely what I meant to say, pld.

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09-15-2009, 12:47 PM
  #211
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Did he honestly think that was going to work now? Honestly... Cmon Z...
you're right, we're too busy paying handcuffs like Redden and Drury

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09-15-2009, 12:48 PM
  #212
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You are extremely underestimating guys like Higgins and Prospal who have something to play for this year. Especially higgins who is in his contract year.
I am Chris Higgins fan. It's well documented here. I also liked Vaclav Prospal when he was younger. I, however, do not believe that a veteran pro athlete can elevate his game at will. You are either gifted or not. The only way to improve once your development is finished would be use of coaching help or use of performance enhancement drugs. Prospal hope to play better is to get Torts' help. I prefer someone who's development is not finished, obviously.

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09-15-2009, 12:50 PM
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It's like taking back your ex-girlfriend....second chances is Sather's thing.

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09-15-2009, 12:56 PM
  #214
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Yup. You've said more precisely what I meant to say, pld.
Semantics. Healthy or not, Gabi would not be sharing ice with Z anyway. Our second line of Prospal-Drury-Kotalik should be our third.

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09-15-2009, 12:58 PM
  #215
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Semantics. Healthy or not, Gabi would not be sharing ice with Z anyway. Our second line of Prospal-Drury-Kotalik should be our third.
That's already an above average second line. If that was our third, that would probably be the best third line in the league.

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09-15-2009, 12:59 PM
  #216
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I prefer someone who's development is not finished, obviously.
Meh. Such a preference depends entirely on two things:

1. That he can develop further
2. That he will opt to.

If he cannot or will not further develop, it's an empty preference. You're merely getting again the same player you already had.

Zherdev's points per game have been essentially the same for the last three season: .74, .74, .71.

Given this, it's quite easy to question the claim that his development has not yet finished.


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09-15-2009, 01:03 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
I am Chris Higgins fan. It's well documented here. I also liked Vaclav Prospal when he was younger. I, however, do not believe that a veteran pro athlete can elevate his game at will. You are either gifted or not. The only way to improve once your development is finished would be use of coaching help or use of performance enhancement drugs. Prospal hope to play better is to get Torts' help. I prefer someone who's development is not finished, obviously.
If you are a chris higgins fans then you would know that in his 3rd year he put up 50+ points after having back to back 30+ point seasons. He was clearly developing and getting better. He was injured last year. He is healthy now and I dont see any reason why he cant replace zherdev's production last year.

I strongly disagree. I think that is a very weak and unsubstantiated argument. Players can ALWAYS improve their game and get better no matter how old they are or what point they are at in their careers. I dont know if you ever played sports in your life, maybe you did and got bad coaching or advice, but there is always room for improvement and learning. One's work is never done because there is always someone who is better than you out there and a true athlete will continue to work hard to make himself better.

With that said, I will say it now, Vinny Prospal will have a very productive year for the rangers. And I cant wait to throw it in your face if you're even around these boards by the end of this year because you might not wanna show your presence after all the absurd claims you have been making.

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09-15-2009, 01:12 PM
  #218
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Semantics.
Semantics that state the problem, yes.

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09-15-2009, 01:29 PM
  #219
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I am Chris Higgins fan. It's well documented here. I also liked Vaclav Prospal when he was younger. I, however, do not believe that a veteran pro athlete can elevate his game at will. You are either gifted or not. The only way to improve once your development is finished would be use of coaching help or use of performance enhancement drugs. Prospal hope to play better is to get Torts' help. I prefer someone who's development is not finished, obviously.
http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=15605

So was it steroids or coaching that transformed Savard from a 50-60 point player to a 80-100 point player at the age of 28

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09-15-2009, 01:30 PM
  #220
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If you are a chris higgins fans then you would know that in his 3rd year he put up 50+ points after having back to back 30+ point seasons. He was clearly developing and getting better. He was injured last year. He is healthy now and I dont see any reason why he cant replace zherdev's production last year.
Do you bother to read? I was talking about Prospal. Higgins is no veteran,

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I strongly disagree. I think that is a very weak and unsubstantiated argument. Players can ALWAYS improve their game and get better no matter how old they are or what point they are at in their careers. I dont know if you ever played sports in your life, maybe you did and got bad coaching or advice, but there is always room for improvement and learning. One's work is never done because there is always someone who is better than you out there and a true athlete will continue to work hard to make himself better.
You seem to be a typical victim of High School propaganda implying that hard work and determination will make you successful. It is not exactly right. Most successful people worked hard toward their success. However hard work is a sure source of losers. Lazy individuals would never be a losers cause they never try. Since successful folks are numbered, the co-called hard work produces mostly losers. Talent is what determines the likelihood of your success. They don't tell you that, cause they think the kid may get depressed and parents get upset..


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And I cant wait to throw it in your face if you're even around these boards by the end of this year because you might not wanna show your presence after all the absurd claims you have been making.
I will be around. Don't forget to apologize, cause I won't. Last year about this time I made an absurd claim that Renney will be fired in January. I was off only time wise.


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09-15-2009, 01:33 PM
  #221
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http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=15605

So was it steroids or coaching that magically transformed Savard from a 50-60 point player to a 80-100 point player at the age of 28
You sarcasm is unwarranted. I can't tell you what I think.

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09-15-2009, 01:49 PM
  #222
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Meh. Such a preference depends entirely on two things:

1. That he can develop further
2. That he will opt to.

If he cannot or will not further develop, it's an empty preference. You're merely getting again the same player you already had.

Zherdev's points per game have been essentially the same for the last three season: .74, .74, .71.

Given this, it's quite easy to question the claim that his development has not yet finished.
Not at 24. He is still a kid as far hockey sense is concerned. Zherdev has never been given attention of true hockey mind. Hichcock is a busy strategist and motivator. He wouldn't teach hockey sense.
Z started playing way too early and didn't get enough schooling. (Same with Avery, BTW. Different talent that started playing too early. I hope Rangers will be smart enough and coach him from pest to top 6 player he is, I think Mike Sullivan will bring Avery there)

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09-15-2009, 03:48 PM
  #223
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Do you bother to read? I was talking about Prospal. Higgins is no veteran,



You seem to be a typical victim of High School propaganda implying that hard work and determination will make you successful. It is not exactly right. Most successful people worked hard toward their success. However hard work is a sure source of losers. Lazy individuals would never be a losers cause they never try. Since successful folks are numbered, the co-called hard work produces mostly losers. Talent is what determines the likelihood of your success. They don't tell you that, cause they think the kid may get depressed and parents get upset..




I will be around. Don't forget to apologize, cause I won't. Last year about this time I made an absurd claim that Renney will be fired in January. I was off only time wise.
I did read and you say you're a higgins fan so I'm just curious as to how you can say we dont have the "stopgap" between gaborik and the rest of the players on this team. Higgins has put up a total that has been pretty damn close to zherdev's usual point totals. Dont give me the zherdev has more talent BS because its crap. I dont care if zherdev can do more fancy stuff than higgins can, all that matters is that the puck ends up in the back of the net. A toe drag and a garbage goal in front of the net is all the same to me. And thats why i went in to detail about higgins specifically.

I really dont know what planet you are living on with that second statement. A victim of hs propaganda?? Hard work doesnt lead to success??? Its a source of losers? You are beyond any point of sanity to say something like that. So a guy like Michael Jordan, who is one of the best athletes of all time and was cut from his HS team, didnt work his ass off? Because I'm prettyyy sure he did. And from his accomplishments it sure look like it paid off. Or how about wade boggs or maybe it was cal ripken, who said he would take hundreds of swings off a tee a day. Yeah those guys werent good at all. Lance Armstrong who battled cancer didnt work hard at all either. Those are just guys off the top of my head. I mean I'm sure switch hitters in baseball never worked hard every day to hit both ways because that is such an easy task. you might think it is but then again your knowledge of sports seems to be pretty low. The same can be applied to hockey, taking extra shots with targets for each corner of the net. Skating extra laps and other skating drills to improve your stride and make you quicker.

You were right on one point though. Talent does determine the likelihood of your success, HOWEVER, to obtain that talent and skill you must work hard at it. There are only the SELECT FEW that have not had to work at it.

And I wont have to apologize, Prospal will put up at least 60 points this year. I'll stand by that all the way. And congratulations on the bold prediction last year that renney would get fired because no one else saw that as a possibility either. The guy couldnt get this organization past the first two rounds since 05-06. His team's have been offensively weak even with a guy like Jagr who yes did produce but after that first season after the lockout, the PP went downhill quickly. But hey you were the only one that saw the renney firing coming, you're pretty good.

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09-15-2009, 04:36 PM
  #224
GarretJoseph*
 
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No Gabby tonight or against the Debbies. BOOO!!

I understand he felt some tightness.... :-X

Hopefully this is just caution and he'll be fine when the games matter for him.

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09-15-2009, 04:43 PM
  #225
RGY
(Jagr68NYR94Leetch)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarretJoseph View Post
No Gabby tonight or against the Debbies. BOOO!!

I understand he felt some tightness.... :-X

Hopefully this is just caution and he'll be fine when the games matter for him.
theyre playing the bruins

And torts spoke yesterday saying theyre just being cautious with gaborik and that he will get in some preseason games

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