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KESSEL DRAMA-VOLUME 3--ESPN- Leafs offering 2 firsts+2nd?

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09-13-2009, 01:56 AM
  #1
Tonka
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KESSEL DRAMA-VOLUME 3--ESPN- Leafs offering 2 firsts+2nd?

The other thread exceeded 1000 posts, so decided to make a new one.

Even though I don't consider ESPN the greatest hockey source, might as well post a link of where they said the Leafs may offer 2 first round picks and a second:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=4467812

"One source told ESPN.com the Leafs have offered two first-round picks and a second-round pick as part of the deal.

Another source said if a deal can't be reached soon between Toronto and Boston that the Leafs were seriously considering an offer sheet. The Bruins, of course, could match."
--espn.com

I wouldn't be interested in giving 2 firsts, unless we get another player along with Kessel.


Last edited by Tonka: 09-13-2009 at 02:04 AM.
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09-13-2009, 02:04 AM
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No 1st round picks for 2 years is alot to swallow, even for a guy like Kessel. Although we have a potential 40+ goal guy on our hand for many years to come in Kessel, who knows how high those 1sts are going to be.

Maybe Burke is offering the 2 1sts + 2nd with the condition that 1 (or by some divine miracle both) are top 10 protected. If the leafs finish bottom 10 in 2010, the 1sts move to 2011 and 2012.

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09-13-2009, 02:05 AM
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No 1sts two years in a row would be much easier to swallow having multiple 2nds in each draft.

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09-13-2009, 02:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by All_blueandwhite View Post
No 1st round picks for 2 years is alot to swallow, even for a guy like Kessel. Although we have a potential 40+ goal guy on our hand for many years to come in Kessel, who knows how high those 1sts are going to be.

Maybe Burke is offering the 2 1sts + 2nd with the condition that 1 (or by some divine miracle both) are top 10 protected. If the leafs finish bottom 10 in 2010, the 1sts move to 2011 and 2012.
A team like Philly has used their first round picks to draft Giroux and Carter, and Anaheim have drafted Perry and Getzlaf late in the first round. So I agree it would be ALOT to swallow if we traded two first round picks.

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09-13-2009, 02:08 AM
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Hopefully the 2010 pick would be top 10 protected, even though that'd give Tank Nation some extra incentive to go nuts this year.

You have to think something else has to be coming back though if we're giving up that much, Bergeron? Ryder?

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09-13-2009, 02:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTL View Post
No 1sts two years in a row would be much easier to swallow having multiple 2nds in each draft.
Assuming Leafs make the playoffs.

I'd want to do a trade like Ponikarovski+1st round pick+2nd+White for Kessel+a draft pick

If we trade Poni, we get more cap space and trade him while his value is perhaps at an all-time high right now.

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09-13-2009, 02:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by All_blueandwhite View Post
No 1st round picks for 2 years is alot to swallow, even for a guy like Kessel. Although we have a potential 40+ goal guy on our hand for many years to come in Kessel, who knows how high those 1sts are going to be.

Maybe Burke is offering the 2 1sts + 2nd with the condition that 1 (or by some divine miracle both) are top 10 protected. If the leafs finish bottom 10 in 2010, the 1sts move to 2011 and 2012.
Why would Boston do this? The appeal and potential is that Toronto will finish in the bottom 10.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Da Baller View Post
Hopefully the 2010 pick would be top 10 protected, even though that'd give Tank Nation some extra incentive to go nuts this year.

You have to think something else has to be coming back though if we're giving up that much, Bergeron? Ryder?
Why would Boston give up Bergeron/Ryder and Kessel for 2 draft picks. Boston also does not need a single forward from Toronto. That is where the surplus is and that is why Phil is being shopped.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonka View Post
Assuming Leafs make the playoffs.

I'd want to do a trade like Ponikarovski+1st round pick+2nd+White for Kessel+a draft pick

If we trade Poni, we get more cap space and trade him while his value is perhaps at an all-time high right now.
Bruins can't take on EITHER one of these players and neither one make their way into the top 9 forwards OR the top for defense. Think picks and a solid prospect who plays defense boys. And when you hesitate and feel the pinch, now you are where Burke and Chiarelli are.

Cheers!

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09-13-2009, 02:34 AM
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Here is a lineup for next season without moving anyone signed for next year. All UFA's are not included, and Kessel is in at $5.5 million. The RFA's have the same contracts as this year, so it needs a minor adjustment, depending on how well they do. The lines of course are generated by capgeek based on the highest contract 1st. It gives cap-room of about $10 million, minus the RFA raises, needing a back-up goalie and a couple defenceman, and of course doesn't have any affect of the cap lowering. Anyway, I've just posted this to show the cap situation for next year.


Quote:
Quote:
AUTO-GENERATED CAPGEEK.COM LINES
FORWARDS
* Phil Kessel ($5.500m) / Jason Blake ($4.000m) / Tyler Bozak ($3.725m)
Niklas Hagman ($3.000m) / Mikhail Grabovski ($2.900m) / Nazem Kadri ($1.750m)
Nikolai Kulemin ($1.488m) / Colton Orr ($1.000m) / Christian Hanson ($0.925m)
Jiri Tlusty ($0.855m) / Viktor Stalberg ($0.850m) / Rickard Wallin ($0.800m)
John Mitchell ($0.487m)
DEFENSEMEN
Mike Komisarek ($4.500m) / Tomas Kaberle ($4.250m)
Francois Beauchemin ($3.800m) / Jeff Finger ($3.500m)
Luke Schenn ($2.975m)
GOALTENDERS
Jonas Gustavsson ($2.500m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
ROSTER: 19; PAYROLL: $50.538m; CAP ROOM: $10.522m BONUSES: $8.435m

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09-13-2009, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Coach Parker View Post
Why would Boston give up Bergeron/Ryder and Kessel for 2 draft picks. Boston also does not need a single forward from Toronto. That is where the surplus is and that is why Phil is being shopped.

Cheers!
Rumour has it that Boston has its sights on a Leafs top 6 forward and that top 6 would have to be included in any deal.

"The second is a first round pick plus a top 6 forward on the Maple Leafs who the Bruins are extremely high on and may actually be insisting on in any deal for Kessel"

http://torontosportsmedia.com/

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09-13-2009, 02:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonka View Post
A team like Philly has used their first round picks to draft Giroux and Carter, and Anaheim have drafted Perry and Getzlaf late in the first round. So I agree it would be ALOT to swallow if we traded two first round picks.
A team like Anaheim traded two 1sts, a 2nd, a solid D prospect, and a solid forward prospect for a 30 year old elite defenceman who was about to exit his prime.

A team like Philly also just traded 2 1st round picks, their 1st round pick from the year before who's had nothing but hype, the same forward prospect who has now developed into a pretty good winger, and a conditional pick, for a 34 year old elite defenceman who is now starting his downturn. In fact, it was the same one.

The point remains both of your examples have also given up a ****ton to get what they want.

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09-13-2009, 02:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuckerThomas View Post
Rumour has it that Boston has its sights on a Leafs top 6 forward and that top 6 would have to be included in any deal.

"The second is a first round pick plus a top 6 forward on the Maple Leafs who the Bruins are extremely high on and may actually be insisting on in any deal for Kessel"

http://torontosportsmedia.com/
TSM is one of the worst sites for Leafs rumors there is..take it with a grain of salt.

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09-13-2009, 02:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonka View Post
Assuming Leafs make the playoffs.

I'd want to do a trade like Ponikarovski+1st round pick+2nd+White for Kessel+a draft pick

If we trade Poni, we get more cap space and trade him while his value is perhaps at an all-time high right now.
With Kessel in the lineup (even starting in nov/dec) the dynamics of the team change.
  • Finishing 8th/9th in the Eastern Conference in 2010 would result in a 13th-16th overall selection.
  • Finishing 8th or above in the Eastern Conference in 2011 would result in a 15th-20th (maybe lower) overall selection.

Currently our draft pick situation for 2010 and 2011 are:

Quote:
2010
1st (Leafs)
2nd (Leafs)
3rd (Leafs)

4th (Lost in Caber deal)
5th (Leafs)
6th (Leafs)
7th (Leafs)


2011
1st (Leafs)
2nd (Leafs)
2nd (Calgary in Stralman deal) Shipped to Hawks in 2010 2nd deal
3rd (Leafs) Shipped to Hawks in 2010 2nd deal
4th (Leafs)
5th (Leafs)
6th (Leafs)
7th (Leafs)
Let's assume the worst case scenario: 1st 2010, 1st 2011, 2nd 2010, 3rd 2010 for Kessel (I don't believe this wil be the deal if it happens but for arguments sake we'll use it).

That would leave us:

Quote:
2010
5th (Leafs)
6th (Leafs)
7th (Leafs)


2011
2nd (Leafs)
4th (Leafs)
5th (Leafs)
6th (Leafs)
7th (Leafs)
  • Heading into camp having one extra defenceman would recoup a pick or two.
  • When Kessel returns another top six forward becomes expendable which would recoup another selection.
  • A surprise youngster who may beat out a vet at camp (Tlusty, Stlberg, Hanson, Bozak) would make another forward expendable.
  • At the deadline depending on where the leafs stand Burke may opt for selections vs NHL players in return for the impending UFA's. (I'm eager to see what Burke would do in this situation).
  • THE KABBY DECISION - Next summer is the absolute latest possible opportunity Burke has to make a decision regarding Kabbys future. If the leafs qualify for the playoffs this year, Leafs cant move him. Finishing 9th Burke can make the move or sign him long term.
Point being, Burke has quite a few options to recoup draft picks (2nd and lower) only leaving us no 1st's back to back. A few mid to high (31st-45th) in both years should be enough to keep the "build through the draft" momentum going.

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09-13-2009, 02:43 AM
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Here, figure I'd put this into perspective on this page when talking about trades with Boston.

1) Boston has 1.7 in cap space.

2) Here are the forward lines:

Lucic - Savard - Wheeler
Sturm - Bergeron - Kobasew
Recchi - Krecji - Ryder
Bitz - Begin - Thornton

Forward Prospects:

Hamill
Marchand
Sobotka
Colborne

You get the picture with the forwards. Boston has a surplus of forwards without Phil. Adding in Toronto forwards of any caliber just don't make the Bruins where they would be effective and would be in the AHL fighting for a position with those top three on the list who could play in the NHL on a rebuilding team.

3) The lack of defensive PROSPECTS in Boston is glaring at most Bruins fans.

Chara - Morris
Wideman - Hunwick
Ference - Stuart
Boychuck

Ian White doesn't even crack the Bruins defensive roster so that also makes NO sense. All six on the Bruins are better defensemen respectively.

Prospects:

Button
Alexandrov

Now those two are not NHL ready and are possibly bottom pairing with top 3-4 potential. Boston has no strong defensive prospects in the AHL and that is where they are trying to upgrade with the Kessel trade.

I am not trying to be mean or troll at all guys, my whole family are Leafs fans including my wife and we have discussed the Kessel trade at length for about a year. There is a reason that teh 2 1st's is on the table from Toronto because they don't want to part with Schenn and don't have that high draft defensive prospect that would appeal to the Bruins.

4) The rumored offer from Nashville includes Franson/Blum who would instantly be Boston's top prospect on defense. Add in their 1st that would be higher than Toronto's (See Toronto hitting 10th in the East) and you see why Burke has to come over Nashville's offer.

5) What if the Nashville deal is already done (like some have suggested on their board) and that they are just finalizing a contract with Phil? If that was the case then Burke would easily leak a rumor about him offering the 1st's to Leaf nation to let everyone know that 'hey I tried', while knowing that he was already out of the trade.

6) The offer sheet essentially makes sure he doesn't get Phil. Burke will not contradict himself by over-valuing Phil and offering anything that starts with 5.x million. Anything under Boston matches and moves players. Chiarelli has already stated that he has a contingent plan in place if he signs the match and keeps Phil. Therefore Burke has to do better than 1st, 2nd, 3rd and not include a forward.

With all this in mind, I would really like to hear what Leafs fans would part with for Phil.

Cheers!

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09-13-2009, 02:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuckerThomas View Post
Rumour has it that Boston has its sights on a Leafs top 6 forward and that top 6 would have to be included in any deal.

"The second is a first round pick plus a top 6 forward on the Maple Leafs who the Bruins are extremely high on and may actually be insisting on in any deal for Kessel"

http://torontosportsmedia.com/
Refer to my above post.

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09-13-2009, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Reverse Flying V View Post
TSM is one of the worst sites for Leafs rumors there is..take it with a grain of salt.

Name me a site that IS great and also reliable for rumours!
HB?

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09-13-2009, 02:49 AM
  #16
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Originally Posted by Reverse Flying V View Post
A team like Anaheim traded two 1sts, a 2nd, a solid D prospect, and a solid forward prospect for a 30 year old elite defenceman who was about to exit his prime.

A team like Philly also just traded 2 1st round picks, their 1st round pick from the year before who's had nothing but hype, the same forward prospect who has now developed into a pretty good winger, and a conditional pick, for a 34 year old elite defenceman who is now starting his downturn. In fact, it was the same one.

The point remains both of your examples have also given up a ****ton to get what they want.
Yeah, but they first drafted players like Giroux, Carter, Richards, Perry, Getzlaf before they traded for player like Pronger. But the point I was trying to make was is you never know what type of prospects you might draft. It is a risk to trade your first round pick already since it may be a top 5 player (but its worth it since its Phil Kessel) but adding another first round for a team that is rebuilding and do not have many top notch forward prospects is tough to do.

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09-13-2009, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Coach Parker View Post
Why would Boston do this? The appeal and potential is that Toronto will finish in the bottom 10.

Why would Boston give up Bergeron/Ryder and Kessel for 2 draft picks. Boston also does not need a single forward from Toronto. That is where the surplus is and that is why Phil is being shopped.

Bruins can't take on EITHER one of these players and neither one make their way into the top 9 forwards OR the top for defense. Think picks and a solid prospect who plays defense boys. And when you hesitate and feel the pinch, now you are where Burke and Chiarelli are.

Cheers!
Agreed on all points.

My guess on any deal with the Bruins would be something similar to the following:

Tlusty, 2010 1st, 2010 2nd
2010 1st, 2011 1st, Blacker (D)
Tlusty, 2010 1st, (Oreskovic (D) or Gunnarsson(D))
etc

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09-13-2009, 03:10 AM
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Originally Posted by LTL View Post
Agreed on all points.

My guess on any deal with the Bruins would be something similar to the following:

Tlusty, 2010 1st, 2010 2nd
2010 1st, 2011 1st, Blacker (D)
Tlusty, 2010 1st, (Oreskovic (D) or Gunnarsson(D))
etc
Now we're getting a little more creative here and addressing NEEDS Boston has, rather than ASSETS Toronto has. I have to read up on Blacker because I have heard nothing about him. I think I am safe in assuming the THM is garbage (from what I read) and still don't see Boston interested in Tlusty even though he has potential.

Finally, do you think the bolded offer is better than Blum, Franson, 1st from Nashville? I personally see the Nashville offer being better and the 1st being higher. The bolded also fits into the Toronto rumors (which I think are made-up and the deal is already done) if you add a 2nd overall.

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09-13-2009, 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted by LTL View Post
Agreed on all points.

My guess on any deal with the Bruins would be something similar to the following:

Tlusty, 2010 1st, 2010 2nd
2010 1st, 2011 1st, Blacker (D)
Tlusty, 2010 1st, (Oreskovic (D) or Gunnarsson(D))
etc
Those are the deals Chia would be looking for but I doubt Burke would be willing to make those deals. There is a HUGE risk factor when you are trading 2 first round picks (/players). I do not want to over hype Tlusty, but he is perhaps our best forward prospect (if he still can be considered that) right after Kadri.

I really do not know what type of trade would go down...I just hope we trade some useless players that will make Boston fans hate Chia for acquiring. Jokes aside.

Leafs are lacking prospects in the forward position, hence why I can't see Burke trading both Tlusty and a first.

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09-13-2009, 03:28 AM
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Whatever, I'm in favour of shipping picks instead of Tlusty/Kulemin to the B's for Kessel.

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09-13-2009, 03:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Parker View Post
Now we're getting a little more creative here and addressing NEEDS Boston has, rather than ASSETS Toronto has. I have to read up on Blacker because I have heard nothing about him. I think I am safe in assuming the THM is garbage (from what I read) and still don't see Boston interested in Tlusty even though he has potential.

Finally, do you think the bolded offer is better than Blum, Franson, 1st from Nashville? I personally see the Nashville offer being better and the 1st being higher. The bolded also fits into the Toronto rumors (which I think are made-up and the deal is already done) if you add a 2nd overall.
From an early look at the rookie tourney and what I've read about Blacker he seems to be a solid two way prospect. At the moment though, he's at the top of our prospect list for defenceman. It's a weakness both the Bruins and the Leafs share.

IF Blum, Franson, 1st is the actual deal on the table from the Preds, Burke and anything the leafs have to offer won't match that. That deal fits the Bruins needs and is more then sufficient compensation for Kessel.

Getting back to Tlusty, he becomes as asset for the organization which can allow the Bruins to make a deadline deal package when most teams looking to dump are asking for picks and prospects.

Chia may have to bend IF that Preds deal you mentioned isn't on the table.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonka View Post
Those are the deals Chia would be looking for but I doubt Burke would be willing to make those deals. There is a HUGE risk factor when you are trading 2 first round picks (/players). I do not want to over hype Tlusty, but he is perhaps our best forward prospect (if he still can be considered that) right after Kadri.

I really do not know what type of trade would go down...I just hope we trade some useless players that will make Boston fans hate Chia for acquiring. Jokes aside.

Leafs are lacking prospects in the forward position, hence why I can't see Burke trading both Tlusty and a first.
Kessel becomes that forward prospect at the age of 21.

Besides, Kessel being a sniping winger is the type of player Burke and co could only dream of drafting in 2010 and 2011.

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09-13-2009, 03:47 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTL View Post
From an early look at the rookie tourney and what I've read about Blacker he seems to be a solid two way prospect. At the moment though, he's at the top of our prospect list for defenceman. It's a weakness both the Bruins and the Leafs share.

IF Blum, Franson, 1st is the actual deal on the table from the Preds, Burke and anything the leafs have to offer won't match that. That deal fits the Bruins needs and is more then sufficient compensation for Kessel.

Getting back to Tlusty, he becomes as asset for the organization which can allow the Bruins to make a deadline deal package when most teams looking to dump are asking for picks and prospects.

Chia may have to bend IF that Preds deal you mentioned isn't on the table.



Kessel becomes that forward prospect at the age of 21.

Besides, Kessel being a sniping winger is the type of player Burke and co could only dream of drafting in 2010 and 2011.
Agreed on all points. Kessel is the real deal and I was there many times at games in Toronto where he displayed it for the Leaf Nation. I still have hopes that he is a Predator (Wade Arnott, his agent is Jason Arnott's brother) and I think Blum (played two years with Lucic) or Wilson (may have been drafted to trade for Phil) offer more than Burke can.

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09-13-2009, 03:53 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Parker View Post
Agreed on all points. Kessel is the real deal and I was there many times at games in Toronto where he displayed it for the Leaf Nation. I still have hopes that he is a Predator (Wade Arnott, his agent is Jason Arnott's brother) and I think Blum (played two years with Lucic) or Wilson (may have been drafted to trade for Phil) offer more than Burke can.
People thinking we're getting Kessel for all of our spare parts have clearly lost their mind. That deal from the Preds (if valid) is absolutely perfect for the Bruins AND for the Preds. Having drafted Ellis last year they can afford to give up a few defensive prospects and not become devoid in the area.

On a side note: I have always hated the statement "well he's not AO, Crosby", etc. While that's no doubt true we're also not being asked to pay Crosby, AO type prices. GM's would demand a hell of a lot more then 2 first rounders, 2nd, 3rd, etc. for franchise players, especially 21 year olds.

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09-13-2009, 05:40 AM
  #24
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Tlusty, Kulemin and a 2nd?

This opens the door for two of: Bozak, Hanson, Stalberg and Kadri.

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09-13-2009, 06:19 AM
  #25
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If we trade Poni...trade him while his value is perhaps at an all-time high right now.
You are making too much sense. When in the last 5 years have the Leafs traded ANYBODY when their value wasn't at an all time LOW? This is the Leafs we're talking about.

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