HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Notices

Someone has to ask, just for kicks

View Poll Results: Which do you prefer?
Gionta 82 71.93%
Tanguay+Sykora 23 20.18%
Niether 9 7.89%
Voters: 114. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-17-2009, 01:23 PM
  #26
11Goat11
Inside her
 
11Goat11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,741
vCash: 500
It drives me nuts hearing about Gionta, Cams, and Gomez, in that they are good players but they are paid too much. Every team has overpaid players, it's not as if we overpaid for stiffs like Jeff Finger and Dustin Penner.

Some people like saving a tonne of cap room for that pie in the sky free agent or salary dump star that might become available. I would rather build the team with solid players than keep the cap space for what might happen.

And to the original question, I would prefer Gionta. After watching all the Youtube videos and hearing the comments from Devils fans this guy will become a fan favorite in no time.

11Goat11 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2009, 01:29 PM
  #27
LyricalLyricist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,793
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
I'm not denying that. My point is that isn't what we're talking about.

Again I don't see what that has to do with a discussion based purely on which player is the better player on the ice.

I see it this way. It's like saying I like kiwis more than apples, but apples are less expensive so they are better.
It is what i'm talking about, i mentioned the contracts for a reason. At same price, obviously gionta, but there's a reason for the question.

But if the kiwis cost unbelievably more than the apples and you have a budget, what happens? Obviously, we're talking about fruits here, so it's not a major thing, but unless you have unlimited money, then you have to take into consideration prices because one thing will limit your ability to do something else later on.

LyricalLyricist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2009, 01:33 PM
  #28
Jigger77
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,940
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
It is what i'm talking about, i mentioned the contracts for a reason. At same price, obviously gionta, but there's a reason for the question.

But if the kiwis cost unbelievably more than the apples and you have a budget, what happens? Obviously, we're talking about fruits here, so it's not a major thing, but unless you have unlimited money, then you have to take into consideration prices because one thing will limit your ability to do something else later on.
Sorry to laugh but it's the first time I ever compare players to kiwis...

Anyway. I agree if you're talking about value. Which player provides the best overall value. Then yes you need to take salary into account.

If I'm a consumer (in this case a Habs fan), and I have the choice between a kiwi and an apple I'm going with the kiwi because I'm not the one paying for it.

I suppose it depends on how you interpreted the OPs original question. Value in a team context or skills player vs player purely.

Jigger77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2009, 01:35 PM
  #29
PunkinDrublic*
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sutton,Qc-Sudbury,On
Posts: 8,282
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11Goat11 View Post
It drives me nuts hearing about Gionta, Cams, and Gomez, in that they are good players but they are paid too much. Every team has overpaid players, it's not as if we overpaid for stiffs like Jeff Finger and Dustin Penner.

Some people like saving a tonne of cap room for that pie in the sky free agent or salary dump star that might become available. I would rather build the team with solid players than keep the cap space for what might happen.

And to the original question, I would prefer Gionta. After watching all the Youtube videos and hearing the comments from Devils fans this guy will become a fan favorite in no time.
Yep, you have to laugh at some of the Leafs fans who comment on how we overpaid our smurf players, when the have mr Finger !!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Sorry to laugh but it's the first time I ever compare players to kiwis...

Anyway. I agree if you're talking about value. Which player provides the best overall value. Then yes you need to take salary into account.

If I'm a consumer (in this case a Habs fan), and I have the choice between a kiwi and an apple I'm going with the kiwi because I'm not the one paying for it.

I suppose it depends on how you interpreted the OPs original question. Value in a team context or skills player vs player purely.

He is the OP....hehe


Last edited by Habs10Habs: 09-17-2009 at 08:24 PM.
PunkinDrublic* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2009, 01:40 PM
  #30
Habs 4 Life
No Excuses
 
Habs 4 Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Italy
Posts: 32,909
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Wasn't Sykora injured, came back, and blocked a shot and hurt his foot again?
I'm pretty sure he was a healthy scratch,came back game 6 and got hurt blocking that shot

Habs 4 Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2009, 01:44 PM
  #31
Jigger77
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,940
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HabsNewGeneration View Post
He is the OP....hehe
Oops good point. I need to focus damnit!

Jigger77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2009, 02:00 PM
  #32
PunkinDrublic*
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sutton,Qc-Sudbury,On
Posts: 8,282
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Oops good point. I need to focus damnit!
Focus man, Focus.... Must be the game tonight !

PunkinDrublic* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2009, 02:02 PM
  #33
onice
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 5,396
vCash: 500
Who is Niether? A rookie?

onice is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2009, 02:03 PM
  #34
PunkinDrublic*
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sutton,Qc-Sudbury,On
Posts: 8,282
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
Who is Niether? A rookie?
Oh great we are now stooping as low as to laugh at some peoples spelling errors huh ?

PunkinDrublic* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2009, 02:08 PM
  #35
Myron Gaines*
Trop Giou
 
Myron Gaines*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,391
vCash: 500
Both are good players, but they're soft as hell. I think Gainey would've definetely signed Tanguay for that price, but he was probably asking Gionta's money around july 1st and he prefered Gionta.

Gionta is overpaid no doubt,but at least he brings character and leadership with those 60 points and he's durable. He's also a good tipper, a skill that our team truly lacks IMO.

Myron Gaines* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2009, 02:15 PM
  #36
Dirty Danglez
Take it like a Man
 
Dirty Danglez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,862
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Isn't that a bit contradictory?

Personally I couldn't care less about the contract. I don't look at a roster and say, jeez, that guy is amazing but, he's too expensive. They're all too expensive anyway.
Besides it's not like it's my money.

Nothing personal but that contract talk is really odd to me. It's all you hear from oustide perspectives. Habs are too small, they paid too much for such and such etc...

How about we look at what the guy brings to the table and leave money out of it.
Not at all contradictory... I like Gio... never said he was amazing. I like lapierre... hes not worth 5 mil either. Why do I care about the money? Because every team has a cap hit, and 5 mil of that cap hit is going to Gio for the next 5 years. I do not want to be paying Gio 5 mil when he is 34 and 35... let alone right now. We all know he is not worth 5 mil unless he plays as good as his 48 goal season, which most likely wont happen.

Contract talk is one of the most important things iin hockey because now that we are paying gio 2 mil more than we should (imo)... that means that we have 2 mil less to spend on another aquisition or keep for trade deadline.

Edit: sry did not see this issue was resolved yet lol... carry on

Dirty Danglez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2009, 02:15 PM
  #37
Habitants
Registered User
 
Habitants's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,163
vCash: 500
i like tanguay alot, and i was sorry to see him go.

but i have a feeling many ppl will like gionta after the season starts. i just wish he signed for only 3 years or for less of a cap hit, because in three years, 5 mill for gionta will be too much..

but i hope i eat my words in 5yrs...

Habitants is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2009, 02:18 PM
  #38
LyricalLyricist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,793
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
Who is Niether? A rookie?
A mythological creature. Sorry for the typo.

LyricalLyricist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2009, 02:19 PM
  #39
Jigger77
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,940
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeCammalleri View Post
Not at all contradictory... I like Gio... never said he was amazing. I like lapierre... hes not worth 5 mil either. Why do I care about the money? Because every team has a cap hit, and 5 mil of that cap hit is going to Gio for the next 5 years. I do not want to be paying Gio 5 mil when he is 34 and 35... let alone right now. We all know he is not worth 5 mil unless he plays as good as his 48 goal season, which most likely wont happen.

Contract talk is one of the most important things iin hockey because now that we are paying gio 2 mil more than we should (imo)... that means that we have 2 mil less to spend on another aquisition or keep for trade deadline.
Sure.

But all I'm saying is that (salary) doesn't make one player a better hockey player than the other.

Jigger77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2009, 02:21 PM
  #40
Dirty Danglez
Take it like a Man
 
Dirty Danglez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,862
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Sure.

But that doesn't make one player a better hockey player than the other.
I agree. I think OP was including the salary with the player though, in that case, Gio's value to the team goes way down. As a player I like Gio more than both of Tanguay and Sykora combined. So we are on the same terms

Dirty Danglez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2009, 02:23 PM
  #41
Blind Gardien
Global Moderator
nexus of the crisis
 
Blind Gardien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Four Winds Bar
Country: France
Posts: 19,340
vCash: 500
The inclusion of Sykora almost makes me pick the Gionta option instead.

But I'd rather have Tanguay @ $2.5M for 1 year than Gionta at $5M for 5 years.

Then I'd cheerfully spend my other $22.5M on players other than Sykora.

Blind Gardien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2009, 02:24 PM
  #42
BigFatPapa
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 260
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Sorry to laugh but it's the first time I ever compare players to kiwis...

Anyway. I agree if you're talking about value. Which player provides the best overall value. Then yes you need to take salary into account.

If I'm a consumer (in this case a Habs fan), and I have the choice between a kiwi and an apple I'm going with the kiwi because I'm not the one paying for it.

I suppose it depends on how you interpreted the OPs original question. Value in a team context or skills player vs player purely.
Just to be an *******, here's my take on the Gionta/fruit debate (did I just say that?).

Basically, "better player" could simply mean the player with the best on-ice results or the player that makes the team better. So you can't focus on the fruit, you need to keep the fruit basket in mind.

If I offer you a fruit, you'd probably take the kiwi over the apple, because you're not paying for it. But if I offer you a basket with a single kiwi in it with plantain bananas, celeriac and parsnip OR a basket with apples, passion fruits and cantaloupe, screw the kiwi man, you gotta go for the cantaloupe. Got it?

BigFatPapa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2009, 02:29 PM
  #43
Brownies
Registered User
 
Brownies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Writing an Haiku or watching an habs game
Posts: 2,917
vCash: 500
Tanguay.

I've always liked Gionta but I'm still wondering how the hell he got 5 millions per season. I don't care if he plays like 6'1 or how many goals he scored 3 years ago. He's overpaid.

If he signed for 5 millions with the Bruins, everyone around here would be laughing at it.

Brownies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2009, 02:32 PM
  #44
shutehinside
Registered User
 
shutehinside's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,371
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeCammalleri View Post
Not at all contradictory... I like Gio... never said he was amazing. I like lapierre... hes not worth 5 mil either. Why do I care about the money? Because every team has a cap hit, and 5 mil of that cap hit is going to Gio for the next 5 years. I do not want to be paying Gio 5 mil when he is 34 and 35... let alone right now. We all know he is not worth 5 mil unless he plays as good as his 48 goal season, which most likely wont happen.

Contract talk is one of the most important things iin hockey because now that we are paying gio 2 mil more than we should (imo)... that means that we have 2 mil less to spend on another aquisition or keep for trade deadline.

Edit: sry did not see this issue was resolved yet lol... carry on
If Gio scored 48 goals evey season, he'd be a $9M a year player.

Secondly, the entire cap situation is completely moot. A team has a certain amount of money to spend on it's players, true. But imagine a template where a first line centre makes $xxx, a second line centre makes $xxx etc.. If Gionta is the only player that fits that slot at that price then he's the one who gets it. A GM will go out and throw bids at players, a perfect example being Cammy and Kovy. He had $xxx to spend and put the bid out, first to take the bid gets the contract, period. I realize this is an over simplification but it's still a good example of the process.

Now I don't know about you, but I'm not psychic and there's many examples of very good players that signed fat contracts and didn't produce. There's also examples of the opposite happening as well. When a GM gives out a contract he's not "hoping" the players becomes the top soicring player in the league and they rarely have unrealistic projections. They are thinking who is the best player at this time to fit this role and the model of the team I'm building. That's why so many players we, the fans may covet are never even looked at by the top brass.

Finally, if a player signs and doesn't fit the role and under produces and isn't what the GM thought he would get, that's when he becomes a liability and takes up unecessary cap space. Good news is there's many ways out of it such as demotion to the AHL, trade, waiver, transfer to European leagues, forced retirement, buy outs etc... So it doesn't really matter how much cap space a player is taking unless he doesn't merit it and he doesn't merit it when the GM thinks he's not playing his role and he has another person who could. That's why I would never bring up cap space unless the player has already shown he's not worth it, mostly after he's already played some freaking games and not in PRE SEASON PRACTICE.

shutehinside is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2009, 02:49 PM
  #45
Dirty Danglez
Take it like a Man
 
Dirty Danglez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,862
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
If Gio scored 48 goals evey season, he'd be a $9M a year player.

Secondly, the entire cap situation is completely moot. A team has a certain amount of money to spend on it's players, true. But imagine a template where a first line centre makes $xxx, a second line centre makes $xxx etc.. If Gionta is the only player that fits that slot at that price then he's the one who gets it. A GM will go out and throw bids at players, a perfect example being Cammy and Kovy. He had $xxx to spend and put the bid out, first to take the bid gets the contract, period. I realize this is an over simplification but it's still a good example of the process.

Now I don't know about you, but I'm not psychic and there's many examples of very good players that signed fat contracts and didn't produce. There's also examples of the opposite happening as well. When a GM gives out a contract he's not "hoping" the players becomes the top soicring player in the league and they rarely have unrealistic projections. They are thinking who is the best player at this time to fit this role and the model of the team I'm building. That's why so many players we, the fans may covet are never even looked at by the top brass.

Finally, if a player signs and doesn't fit the role and under produces and isn't what the GM thought he would get, that's when he becomes a liability and takes up unecessary cap space. Good news is there's many ways out of it such as demotion to the AHL, trade, waiver, transfer to European leagues, forced retirement, buy outs etc... So it doesn't really matter how much cap space a player is taking unless he doesn't merit it and he doesn't merit it when the GM thinks he's not playing his role and he has another person who could. That's why I would never bring up cap space unless the player has already shown he's not worth it, mostly after he's already played some freaking games and not in PRE SEASON PRACTICE.
Oh good Im glad you noticed that too. What you explained is exactly that, an oversimplification.

I agree that it is not fair to judge before he plays a game, but I said I highly doubt he will live up to it. That is just my opinion, and I am sure there are more that agree with that than not. Having Gio now at 5 mil is okay at best atm because he has not proved he is worth that much.

If Gainey did what you said, if he took a chance on Gio with a 5 mil contract... that would not be a very good move. GM's dont take chances and hope for the best. They make educated decisions. Throwing money at someone just to hope they produce is retarded.

What bothers me, is that we will still be paying this guy 5 mil in 5 years when he is 35 years old! If it were Kovys contract of 10 mil for two seasons, I wouldnt mind it as much. Fact that he is signed at 5 mil for 5 seasons will hurt this team a bit in the future... and I for one, like to look into the future as well.

Having said that. Gionta is a good player who will fit into this system well. I look forward to seeing this guy play, but, just like Gomez, I think Gio is overpaid. I still love them both and hope for the best and that they both prove me wrong by living up to their contracts

Dirty Danglez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2009, 03:16 PM
  #46
LyricalLyricist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,793
vCash: 50
lol, I find it odd because if we had tanguay and say prospal, or sykora, or anyone who got in for a bargain. We'd be like "**** gionta, wouldn't touch that contract with a 10 foot pole" but now, we go for it.

It's natural. "haha rangers signed gomez for 7+ a year"...*we get gomez* "yay gomez, even after a 58 point season, wow, we're great!"

You naturally defend what's yours, or what you believe in, in this case, the montreal canadiens. Reality is however, from a outside POV we laugh at Dustin Penner, big buy, 4 mil something a year and scores 20+ goals about a year. Gionta with a NTC for 5 mil, YAY! C'mon, Gionta is obviously way better, but in salary cap world, value is very important. Naturally, I as well am excited about Gomez, and gionta, and all our acquisitions, but let's not be fooled here, he's overpaid and in short term, there may be other options, such as tanguay. Maybe people don't like sykora, that's fine, but 10 back to back 20 goal + seasons speak for itself. Maybe there's better options, that's fine, I get it, but please I like gionta but "undersized fiesty speeder" characteristics don't add 3.4 mil and a NTC to a long term deal. That's my take anyway. This is not to criticize our acquisitions, I like them a lot(although I feel i'm one of few who thought higgins had a future on this team for long term) but I do realize in building a successful franchise value is extremely important. Free agency makes players overpaid, it's life.

LyricalLyricist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2009, 04:11 PM
  #47
shutehinside
Registered User
 
shutehinside's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,371
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeCammalleri View Post
Oh good Im glad you noticed that too. What you explained is exactly that, an oversimplification.

I agree that it is not fair to judge before he plays a game, but I said I highly doubt he will live up to it. That is just my opinion, and I am sure there are more that agree with that than not. Having Gio now at 5 mil is okay at best atm because he has not proved he is worth that much.

If Gainey did what you said, if he took a chance on Gio with a 5 mil contract... that would not be a very good move. GM's dont take chances and hope for the best. They make educated decisions. Throwing money at someone just to hope they produce is retarded.

What bothers me, is that we will still be paying this guy 5 mil in 5 years when he is 35 years old! If it were Kovys contract of 10 mil for two seasons, I wouldnt mind it as much. Fact that he is signed at 5 mil for 5 seasons will hurt this team a bit in the future... and I for one, like to look into the future as well.

Having said that. Gionta is a good player who will fit into this system well. I look forward to seeing this guy play, but, just like Gomez, I think Gio is overpaid. I still love them both and hope for the best and that they both prove me wrong by living up to their contracts

But Kovy is 37 years old. That means he'll be 39 when the contract is up. So Gionta at $5M at 35 years old is terrible but Kovy at $5M at 39 is acceptable? I don't feel that way at all.

Giontais entering the prime of his career, by the time he's coming out of it he'll be done his contract. If he was 33 or 34 years old I would agree but 30 is still young imo. Besides, I can't imagine many better options in this years market that could fit his role, character and have been had for the same money or less that wanted to come play in Montreal. So all things considered I'd rather have him then Tanguay and Sykora together, easily.

shutehinside is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2009, 04:13 PM
  #48
habsfan44
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,138
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
But one player being more expensive will limit your ability of acquiring other talented players.

Would you mind if markov, gomez, and gionta made 10 million each? Hell yeah I would. Who cares what they bring.

It's like saying when i buy a car, I don't look at the price, I only look at the quality of the car, but if it costs 10 times more than it should, doesn't matter.
It's like saying when I admire a beautiful car that somebody else owns , i only look at the quality of the car , if it cost's ten times more than it should , what's that to me ? I'm only a fan of the car .

habsfan44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2009, 04:36 PM
  #49
LyricalLyricist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,793
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by habsfan44 View Post
It's like saying when I admire a beautiful car that somebody else owns , i only look at the quality of the car , if it cost's ten times more than it should , what's that to me ? I'm only a fan of the car .
I'm a fan of that particular car being affordable within my budget. Works too doesn't it?

LyricalLyricist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2009, 05:09 PM
  #50
Krautso
Registered User
 
Krautso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,697
vCash: 500
Talent wins games. At the NHL level a player who is marginally better than another could be paid twice as much because there are fewer guys with that level of talent. Its supply and demand.

If Gio is a "B" (talent, defense, work ethic, injury susceptibility, leadership, etc) and Tanguay is a C by the same standards its difficult to compare contracts. There may be 50 C players in the league but only 20 B's. The lower supply increases the price. Adding a D player in Sykora (when there might be 00's available) does little but potentially waste a roster spot.

20 F players might be the best value for $ per point but you won't win many hockey games (see Toronto).

Gio all the way, he's the best player in the bunch and he only takes one roster spot!

Krautso is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:34 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.