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So, why can the ECHL do this, but the AHL cannot

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Old
09-18-2009, 12:35 PM
  #1
pelts35.com
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So, why can the ECHL do this, but the AHL cannot

From their preseason BoG meetings...

http://www.echl.com/cgi-bin/mpublic....cat=1&id=19582

Specifically

"The Board unanimously approved the Schedule Committee’s recommendations for the scheduling process including more balance between conference and division opponents and limiting the number of consecutive games between opponents."

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Old
09-18-2009, 05:27 PM
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axecrew
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pelts35.com View Post
From their preseason BoG meetings...

http://www.echl.com/cgi-bin/mpublic....cat=1&id=19582

Specifically

"The Board unanimously approved the Schedule Committee’s recommendations for the scheduling process including more balance between conference and division opponents and limiting the number of consecutive games between opponents."
Do you really want to start tis debate again??LOL

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Old
09-19-2009, 05:46 AM
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pelts35.com
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Originally Posted by axecrew View Post
Do you really want to start tis debate again??LOL
No, not really. But it really gets my goat that the AA league's BoG unanimously voted to have a more balanced schedule yet the AHL wants us to believe that they think that the fans want to see the same teams over and over, sometimes twice or even three times in a week.

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09-19-2009, 10:41 AM
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The Bridgeport loves playing Hartford 10 times... :: But at least this year it actually matters since the AHL moved Bridgeport into the same division..

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09-19-2009, 10:54 AM
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axecrew
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Originally Posted by pelts35.com View Post
No, not really. But it really gets my goat that the AA league's BoG unanimously voted to have a more balanced schedule yet the AHL wants us to believe that they think that the fans want to see the same teams over and over, sometimes twice or even three times in a week.
Mine to, but I've learned not to give a crap....same response the AHL BOG has towards the fans and what they want.

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09-19-2009, 01:41 PM
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sabrefan27
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I find it interesting that when I talk to most long time AHL followers, most say either the 60's or 80's were their favorite time to be a fan of the AHL. And of course back in those times, you played the same teams very often, more so than today.

Personally, when a new team comes to play Rochester, I find the crowds to be generally smaller and less interested. I like playing the Crunch 12 times, or Binghamton 10 times. But that's just me.

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09-19-2009, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Closet Ranger Fan View Post
The Bridgeport loves playing Hartford 10 times... :: But at least this year it actually matters since the AHL moved Bridgeport into the same division..
All games matter. A win still gets you 2 points, a tie or OTL gets you 1 and a loss gets you zip. Opponent does not matter. A win in October also gets you the same points as one in April.

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Originally Posted by sabresfan27 View Post
I find it interesting that when I talk to most long time AHL followers, most say either the 60's or 80's were their favorite time to be a fan of the AHL. And of course back in those times, you played the same teams very often, more so than today.

Personally, when a new team comes to play Rochester, I find the crowds to be generally smaller and less interested. I like playing the Crunch 12 times, or Binghamton 10 times. But that's just me.
Of course they played the same teams very often, there weren't that many!! a 20 team league playing an 80 game schedule HAS to play some teams more often than a 29 team league playing an 69 game schedule.

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09-19-2009, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Wolvesfan View Post


Of course they played the same teams very often, there weren't that many!! a 20 team league playing an 80 game schedule HAS to play some teams more often than a 29 team league playing an 69 game schedule.
I understand that. The point still remains, no one I talked to had a single complaint about seeing those teams so often. They created great rivalries.

I mean, if Bridgeport comes to Rochester for the first time in 6 or 7 years, I don't think many people will really care.

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09-20-2009, 11:21 PM
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Tommy Hawk
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Originally Posted by sabresfan27 View Post
I understand that. The point still remains, no one I talked to had a single complaint about seeing those teams so often. They created great rivalries.

I mean, if Bridgeport comes to Rochester for the first time in 6 or 7 years, I don't think many people will really care.
Maybe not but if they come every year and there are close, hard hitting games, I think people will care. Also, what if Bridgeport plays Rochester after Rochester beats them in the playoffs the year before in a down and dirty series?

The rivalries are already built but seeing a team 12 times is a little overkill. I think you have people that don't go because they have 5 other times to see the team

You want rivalries? Have only division games the first 2 and last 2 months of the season.

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10-03-2009, 04:49 AM
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Dave Andrews is coming up for a live chat next week on theahl.com. I submitted this question to him (providing the link from here as proof):

Sir:
Recently, the ECHL Board of Governors proposed changes including an expansion of the schedule to include more out-of division games. Is there any chance at all that the AHL owners would consider getting away from a 60% or higher divisional schedule ??


Can't hurt to ask.

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10-20-2009, 10:01 AM
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pelts35.com
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumblick View Post
Dave Andrews is coming up for a live chat next week on theahl.com. I submitted this question to him (providing the link from here as proof):

Sir:
Recently, the ECHL Board of Governors proposed changes including an expansion of the schedule to include more out-of division games. Is there any chance at all that the AHL owners would consider getting away from a 60% or higher divisional schedule ??


Can't hurt to ask.
Rum, he didn't answer your specific question, but there was one that pertained to the schedule...

Why is there typically not more competition between the Eastern and Western Conferences, and what goes into determining which teams play one another?

Over the years as our League has grown it has become a juggling act of sorts to balance the value of developing and maintaining regional rivalries with the concept of providing our fans with exposure to more visiting teams. A league like ours must pay attention to travel costs and there are clearly greater attendance results from rivalry games than from teams visiting that are virtually unknown. It would be helpful if our League were more genuinely divided into East and West geographically which would allow us to play a truly balanced schedule and stay within our conferences until the playoffs. Unfortunately we do not have that luxury, so our schedule is a reflection of providing teams the opportunity to for the most part play the teams in their own division, then their own conference, and in some instances close rivals who perhaps do not fit into either category. The process is essentially determined by the teams themselves through the Board of Governors. Each year a number of different schedule matrix options are provided and the teams work with us to develop the one which they like best as a group. Simplistically, the schedule is designed to appeal to fans from the perspective of preferred opponents and to control travel costs with respect to road games.

Pretty much the stock answer that I would expect.

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10-22-2009, 12:00 AM
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What a load of hooey. Rivalries take some time to build but if you see teams each year on a home and home, attendance for those games will increase. The NBA has a balanced schedule and guess what, whenever a Jordan or Kobe or Lebron team was in town - SELL OUT!!! When we saw WBS, those were some awesome games people looked forward to attending. I could care less if i do not see Milwaukee more than 2 or 3 times.

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10-22-2009, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolvesfan View Post
whenever a Jordan or Kobe or Lebron team was in town - SELL OUT!!!
Remind me again how many of them we get in this league?

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10-22-2009, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Rumblick View Post
Remind me again how many of them we get in this league?
While we don't have any of them since the AHL is a developmental league, but the league certainly has players that other markets might want to see, whether it be a goalie like Corey Schneider, goal scorer like Alexandre Giroux or a fighter like Jon Mirasty.

Andrews can say all he wants about divisional games, blah, blah, blah, it's all about keeping travel costs at a minimum.

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Old
10-22-2009, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by pelts35.com View Post
While we don't have any of them since the AHL is a developmental league, but the league certainly has players that other markets might want to see, whether it be a goalie like Corey Schneider, goal scorer like Alexandre Giroux or a fighter like Jon Mirasty.

Andrews can say all he wants about divisional games, blah, blah, blah, it's all about keeping travel costs at a minimum.
Season ticket holders would know these guys, but the schedule isn't designed for us - hell, well show up no matter what. It's primarily designed for the "casual fan". Most of them want a familiar name, and divisonal opponents provide that.

And yes, it's also about minimizing costs. Sixteen AHL teams averaged under 5,000 fans per game last season (and one that was over - Philly - will be under this year by necessity), and owners feel that. One way to cut costs is to cut travel. It's simple economics.

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Old
10-23-2009, 07:40 AM
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Tommy Hawk
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Originally Posted by Rumblick View Post
Season ticket holders would know these guys, but the schedule isn't designed for us - hell, well show up no matter what. It's primarily designed for the "casual fan". Most of them want a familiar name, and divisonal opponents provide that.

And yes, it's also about minimizing costs. Sixteen AHL teams averaged under 5,000 fans per game last season (and one that was over - Philly - will be under this year by necessity), and owners feel that. One way to cut costs is to cut travel. It's simple economics.
And hence the biggest problem with the league and people without business acumen - instead of cutting costs, why not try GROWING REVENUE!! Two factors contribute to profit - revenue and costs. You can only cut costs to a certain floor without shutting down shop. So, why not grow revenue? HAve you ever seen or heard andrews mention anything about growing revenue for the league? No, he just mentions cutting costs.

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10-23-2009, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Rumblick View Post
Season ticket holders would know these guys, but the schedule isn't designed for us - hell, well show up no matter what. It's primarily designed for the "casual fan". Most of them want a familiar name, and divisonal opponents provide that.
Except how many STHs are not renewing because they are sick and tired of seeing the same 4 or 5 teams for 90% of their games? I remember every season looking at the scheduing and complaining that in a given month that the Phantoms might only play 3 opponents. It got old quick and was part of the reason why I gave up my tickets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumblick
And yes, it's also about minimizing costs. Sixteen AHL teams averaged under 5,000 fans per game last season (and one that was over - Philly - will be under this year by necessity), and owners feel that. One way to cut costs is to cut travel. It's simple economics.
That's all well and good, but then explain why an AA league with an average attendance of 4258 (12 teams under 4000) is looking to increase the amount of out of conference games, which will increase travel costs?

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10-26-2009, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by pelts35.com View Post
Except how many STHs are not renewing because they are sick and tired of seeing the same 4 or 5 teams for 90% of their games? I remember every season looking at the scheduing and complaining that in a given month that the Phantoms might only play 3 opponents. It got old quick and was part of the reason why I gave up my tickets.
You're one. If you can pinpoint that the others who've given up theirs are doing so for the same reason, you'll have something.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pelts35.com View Post
That's all well and good, but then explain why an AA league with an average attendance of 4258 (12 teams under 4000) is looking to increase the amount of out of conference games, which will increase travel costs?
Looking to. Talking about. Discussing. That's a long way from doing.
Also, as this league has teams in upstate NY, Florida, Las Vegas, and Alaska, I'll admit, I wonder how they stay alive myself.

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10-26-2009, 11:44 AM
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Rum,

I can only speak for myself. There's no way to know how many people have dumped their STHs for that reason. I do know, however, that I'm not the only one that complains about it.

At least the ECHL is talking about changing things up, while Dave Andrews continues to shove down our throats that divisional rivarlies (translated, 3 or 4 teams comprise 75% of the schedule) are the greatest thing since sliced bread.

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10-26-2009, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pelts35.com View Post
Rum,

I can only speak for myself. There's no way to know how many people have dumped their STHs for that reason. I do know, however, that I'm not the only one that complains about it.
Understood. Hell, I'd love to see more teams, and fewer division games, but I also understand it's not going to happen.


At least the ECHL is talking about changing things up, while Dave Andrews continues to shove down our throats that divisional rivarlies (translated, 3 or 4 teams comprise 75% of the schedule) are the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Andrews says what he knows the owners are thinking in the most political way he can. Between GM's and owners who want to max out on division games, and those who desperately want to keep costs down, this is simply how it's going to be.
Again, I'd love to know how the ECHL can do it. They don't have the income the AHL has (though they don't likely have the player costs the upper league has), so they must have something going for them.

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10-26-2009, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Rumblick View Post
You're one. If you can pinpoint that the others who've given up theirs are doing so for the same reason, you'll have something.




Looking to. Talking about. Discussing. That's a long way from doing.
Also, as this league has teams in upstate NY, Florida, Las Vegas, and Alaska, I'll admit, I wonder how they stay alive myself.
I know of at least a dozen Chicago Wolves season ticket holders that dumped theirs because the team plays Milwaukee 10-12 times, Rockford 10-12, Peoria, etc. When they moved GR to the other division, we saw them twice at home a year even though they were a much bigger rival than the other teams.

As for players to see, Wolves signed Chelios, Texas has Lukowich, Sean Avery was in the league for a few years, Jon Klemm, etc. While not names like Lebron and the like, someone goes to a game with their kids, sees someone like Loui Eriksson and then two years later he leads the team in scoring, he goes to the kid "We saw him play, remember?" Or sees someone on the team and goes I saw him play for the Maple Leafs.

ANY recognition bolsters familiarity which may lead to higher attendance.

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Old
10-26-2009, 11:58 PM
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No difference in the ECHL west at least here and Victoria and Alaska and Vegas. Most homestands here at least are Wed, Fri, Sat nights all against the same teams. And 9 of the first 20 games are against Stockton this year. Always been like that and probably always will. Only difference at home this year is a couple of home and home's with Utah. Road games are a little different in So. Cal because there are a few teams in close proximity to each other. Travel costs are an issue in the ECHL as well at least in the west. East I'm sure is different because they can bus to games. No buses here at least. SLC is a 5 hr drive from here but I think the Steelheads fly there as well.

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Old
10-27-2009, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pelts35.com View Post
From their preseason BoG meetings...

http://www.echl.com/cgi-bin/mpublic....cat=1&id=19582

Specifically

"The Board unanimously approved the Schedule Committee’s recommendations for the scheduling process including more balance between conference and division opponents and limiting the number of consecutive games between opponents."
Just a couple quick points - the meeting in question was held in September, which is well after this season's schedule was completed, so these goals are for the 10-11 season schedule.

Second, they said more balance between division and conference opponents, not non-conference opponents - so they are talking about having teams in the pacific play the west division and vice versa and the north/south/east divisions playing each other. You still aren't going to see much travel between the conferences.

This year the Royals probably have the most balanced schedule in the East since they were slated to be in a different division at one point in the off season, and they still play 39 games against their three division opponents. They also play at least once against every team in the east, so 11 different opponents all together. I think that is what the rest of the teams are looking for - some teams play very few out of division games, so they are seeing the same three teams for more than half of their schedule. Six or seven home and away vs each team in the division, but then bring in up to 8 different opponents to fill the other 12-18 home dates, and travel to those other teams also obviously.

The other stated goal of the league is to add more teams in the western half, which would help in giving those teams a more varied schedule and possibly enable them to avoid the back to back to back games against the same team.

The other thing is that these are goals - whether they achieve these goals remains to be seen.

As far as the multiple games vs same team - I think the outliers like Alaska, Florida, Victoria, etc are still going to see that, but the goal is to reduce it as much as possible for most of the teams.

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Old
10-27-2009, 04:05 PM
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As a Moose fan, I'm appalled at the east teams that don't come here.

Wilkes-Barre
Norfolk
Erie
Hershey

are the only ones that will be making the trip to Winnipeg this season. Out of how many eastern teams?

And I can't imagine how little eastern teams make it out to Abbotsford.

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10-27-2009, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MooseHunter View Post
As a Moose fan, I'm appalled at the east teams that don't come here.

Wilkes-Barre
Norfolk
Erie
Hershey

are the only ones that will be making the trip to Winnipeg this season. Out of how many eastern teams?

And I can't imagine how little eastern teams make it out to Abbotsford.
who's Erie Erie is an OHL Market---Lake Erie (Cleveland), Moose.... most East teams don't have the budget to do an Abbotsford outside the bigger East markets....

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