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Better Blueline: Toronto or Montreal?

View Poll Results: Better defence?
Toronto defence 345 70.41%
Montreal defence 145 29.59%
Voters: 490. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-20-2009, 08:27 AM
  #76
syc
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Originally Posted by Chigurh View Post
I voted for Montreal, just to spite the guy who started this poll.

I know a couple Leafs fans who think Mikahil Grabovski is better than Mike Cammalleri. Poll coming in 5 minutes
Nah but he is better then both kostisyn brothers.

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Old
09-20-2009, 09:36 AM
  #77
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I'm an habs fan and i have absolutly no problem with people taking the Leafs defense over the habs one.

However, how can you compare defenses at this point without pretty much only looking at what the players have done recently? Hamrlik was clearly better than Komisarek last year (and before you use the homers excuse yet again, you'll find plenty of posts on the habs board saying so loooooonnngg before Komisarek went to the leafs).

+ I'd say Spacek, who just post a career year points (45?) wise has been GROSSLY underrated in most evaluation here, you would think he's some 5th def out there at best.

As for Gorges, it's not fair to call him better than Komisarek, that's for sure, he isnt. He did play much better than him last year also however.
________

I'm fine with taking the leafs defense over the habs because of depth... but than again, how much depth do you need? The habs have 6 proven nhls regulars.

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Old
09-20-2009, 09:47 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Gord Millers Chin View Post
Last 3 full seasons:

Tomas Kaberle: 238 games, 178 points.
Andrei Markov: 237 games, 171 points.

We'll see how Kaberle plays, now that he has Mike Komisarek by his side.
At this point, Andrei Markov is most definitely a better defenseman than Tomas Kaberle.

You could make a case that Markov is top 5 in the NHL.

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Old
09-20-2009, 10:06 AM
  #79
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    Advantage
Markov Kaberle MTL
Spacek Beauchemin Tie
Hamrlik Komisarek MTL
Mara Schenn TOR
Gorges Exelby MTL
Gill Van Ryn TOR
O'Byrne Finger Tie

Very much comparable if you ask me. As a group, I prefer Montreal's defense, although I also like Toronto's.

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Old
09-20-2009, 10:08 AM
  #80
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Leafs by quite a bit, IMO.

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Old
09-20-2009, 11:32 AM
  #81
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i have a feeling that this year kaberle is going to silence the critics.

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Old
09-20-2009, 11:34 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Habsfan18 View Post
You could make a case that Markov is top 5 in the NHL.
i would have to disagree. top 5 in the nhl? you absolutely could not make that case.

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Old
09-20-2009, 11:44 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by bunjay View Post
i would have to disagree. top 5 in the nhl? you absolutely could not make that case.
don't even go there... seriously... a lot of habs fans think he is top 5 in NHL and nothing you say and no amount of evidence you provide will change their mind... so save yourself some breath and just let them live in a fantasy world where Markov is in top 5 dmen to those who actually want to think that

i mean when you have Habs fans saying Josh Gorges is better than Luke Schenn, its obvious reason and logic and reality go right out the window with some people when talking about their team and players

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09-20-2009, 11:44 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by bunjay View Post
i would have to disagree. top 5 in the nhl? you absolutely could not make that case.
Do you watch Markov all the time? Hard to be objective in this case....Markov top 5, maybe, Markov top 10 for sure...Kaberle Top 5, no, top ten maybe...it all depends on what side of the fence you sit on...

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Old
09-20-2009, 12:03 PM
  #85
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i don't see how people say Spacek is = to Beauchemin. Beauchemin brings so much more to the table than Spacek. He is tougher, a better defender, he has a cup, and he is younger. the only thing spacek has is the offense and it's not like beauch is a slouch in that department. Beauch definitely > Spacek

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Old
09-20-2009, 01:02 PM
  #86
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I'd put Markov > Kaberle. Slightly. Last season is kind of the benchmark for comparisons, but I think a number of these players have question marks associated with them based on last year, and how or if they bounce back could change the equations significantly.

Roman Hamrlik is Montreal's top defensive D, so I think he needs to go up against Beauchemin or Komisarek. Beauchemin had 34 points once, so I will go with him, as Hamrlik also chips in on offense. Last year was a write-off for Beauchemin, and there's always the question of how much he has benefitted in the past with a strong partner. Hamrlik was a stud for the Habs in 2007-08, but came back to earth last season. I want to believe the 2007-08 Hamrlik could return. If he does, I say Hamrlik > Beauchemin. But if Beauchemin shakes off last year's injury and plays well without a Norris partner, and Hamrlik shows that 2008-09 wasn't just a dip but part of the big decline, it could easily turn back to Beauchemin's favour.

I have to say Komisarek >> Hal Gill. But he should be, he's paid twice as much and might be on the "top pairing" for his team, while Gill could be on the bottom pairing. So should I pick the comparison on style, where they match more, or on their lineup slot? Komisarek was mediocre at best for the Habs last year. Some would say he sucked. But I believe he is and will be better than that for the Leafs.

Spacek >> Van Ryn/White. This is the inverse of the Komisarek/Gill dilemna. But these are like the 2nd line of offense for the the respective teams. Spacek is better both ways than the Leafs guys, and again, he should be, since we look at him as a #2/3 guy and they are bottom guys. Maybe it should be a combo comparison: Spacek/Gill vs. Komisarek/Van Ryn-White. I give the combo a slight edge to the Habs, although a Komisarek breakout could change that.

Mara > Finger for me, on more generic guys further down the depth chart.

Schenn >> O'Byrne. The big young guys. Schenn is younger and better and has huge upside.

Gorges > Exelby. I don't think many fans outside of Montreal realize how well Gorges played last year. Exelby is tough, but limited. You could make a stylistic argument and choose Exelby, I wouldn't object. I think Gorges is the better player, but on different teams, depending on their makeup, the things Exelby brings could be more valued.

So I give a slight edge to Montreal based on the present tense. Well, or on my lingering impressions mostly from last season's observations, anyway. But there are enough variables that it could easily swing either way and I wouldn't be surprised.

But if you gave me the choice of which defense I could have, I'd take Toronto's. The upside of Schenn and Komisarek blow away the upside (what upside?) of the Habs' D.

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Old
09-20-2009, 01:05 PM
  #87
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On paper, I like Toronto's better.

But I'll wait until the season starts to see how they all play together.

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Old
09-20-2009, 01:05 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLONG7;21185427[B
]Do you watch Markov all the time? Hard to be objective in this case....[/B]Markov top 5, maybe, Markov top 10 for sure...Kaberle Top 5, no, top ten maybe...it all depends on what side of the fence you sit on...
Maybe its harder to be objective since you watch Markov all the time?

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Old
09-20-2009, 01:11 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Nathan311 View Post
Maybe its harder to be objective since you watch Markov all the time?
Markov is not top 5 in the NHL, but he is for sure top 10-15, a legitimate #1 D and a bit better than Kaberle.

But the Leafs have a better overall defense.

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09-20-2009, 01:14 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Souvenirs View Post
Markov is not top 5 in the NHL, but he is for sure top 10-15, a legitimate #1 D and a bit better than Kaberle.

But the Leafs have a better overall defense.
i agree. career-wise kaberle is of course above markov, but recent performance-wise markov has obviously pulled ahead. im a major kaberle nuthugger though, so im optimistic about him having a big rebound.


whether toronto's defense is better or not relies hugely on komisarek and beauchemin. if those two dont play well, everything falls apart.

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09-20-2009, 01:17 PM
  #91
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i would have to disagree. top 5 in the nhl? you absolutely could not make that case.
He is right now, unless someone picks up their play, or he downgrades his, he'll probably hover int he 4, 5, 6 spot again at the end of this year.

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Old
09-20-2009, 01:45 PM
  #92
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Dont know if id classify Markov or Kaberle in the top 5 in the league. Possibly in the top 10. But i think realistically because most of those top defencemen in the league are so close in overall talent (because defence isnt rated soley on scoring which most people forget) I would put them both in the top 15, which puts them in the better half of each teams top defenceman. And to me, because they are so close together, if i was to make a list, they are right next to each other, Markov getting the slight advantage.

For the other question, I would take the leafs defence. They are better all around defenders than Montreal IMO and will still put up decent points from Kaberle, White, Beauchemin. Montreal will most likely put up better offensive numbers than that of Toronto, but will suffer in some of the defensive areas. And regardless to me of top 4 defence, all 6 are gonna have to play at some point, and I think thats where Toronto gets the nod. Better defence, and better all around top 6 than Montreal. Because personally, I thought the job of defencemen was to defend.

Toronto gets the slight advantage over Montreal.

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Old
09-20-2009, 01:57 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by syc View Post
Nah but he is better then both kostisyn brothers.
Better than Andrei? lol

Thats why Andrei outscored him everytime they played together in the AHL, last season was the only time Grabovsky outscored Andrei.

Keep dreaming.

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Old
09-20-2009, 02:00 PM
  #94
tp71
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Were talking NHL...not AHL man...come on..the AHL doesnt mean anything right now...Does anyone ever talk about how much better Alex Daigle was in Junior than everybody else and talk about how great he is? Didnt think so.

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Old
09-20-2009, 02:02 PM
  #95
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Were talking NHL...not AHL man...come on..the AHL doesnt mean anything right now...Does anyone ever talk about how much better Alex Daigle was in Junior than everybody else and talk about how great he is? Didnt think so.
Andrei's career high in the NHL is 26 goals and 53pts.

SO yeah, even in NHL, he outscored Grabovski.

There is no case you can make.

Andrei is better than Grabovski.

Case close.

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Old
09-20-2009, 02:02 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by habsfans333 View Post
Better than Andrei? lol

Thats why Andrei outscored him everytime they played together in the AHL, last season was the only time Grabovsky outscored Andrei.


so what you're pointing out is that the only time they both played a full season in the NHL, grabovski outplayed him with roughly the same minutes on a worse team, having had significantly less NHL experience?

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Old
09-20-2009, 02:03 PM
  #97
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i wasnt really making a case for either one. I would have agreed AK is better than Grabo. Although i think Grabo is better than SK. BUT, you still shouldnt compare their AHL stats in my opinion.

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Old
09-20-2009, 02:13 PM
  #98
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Montreal has the extra veteran puck mover in their top 3 which is a big advantage. Basically comes down to Spacek vs Komisarek. Leafs fans overrate Komi but they'll never admit it. Habs fans just saw a pretty awful season by him in which all aspects of his game looked really raw (hitting, passing, coverage, you name it, it sucked).

Toronto has a slightly better bottom 3 (Tho Gill's importance for playoffs is underrated, he was huge for the Pens), mostly comes down to Schenn > Gorges/OByrne which isn't too significant tho.

Personally I vote Montreal, part homer vote, but I do think Spacek will be more important to the team than Komisarek. Bigger help to the 5v5 game and a good weapon for the PP.

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Old
09-20-2009, 02:16 PM
  #99
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Jesus. I wonder how many people here have actually played hockey before.

Looking at some of the responses here I can't help but laugh. It's like some people know nothing about how hockey is played and think of the NHL like fantasy hockey or NHL 09.

Toronto has the sexier names on their backend. But when I look at Toronto's d-men, I can't help but wonder how the hell they're going to get their transition game going. It's going to be hilarious watching that group trying to move the puck.

Montreal has 3 fantastic puck movers in Markov, Hamrlik and Spacek.

Toronto's d-men will be annoying to play against, but that's about it. Not a very dangerous group offensively, at all. Transition game is probably the most important attribute in a hockey team aside from maybe goaltending.

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Old
09-20-2009, 02:22 PM
  #100
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they are gonna bully the puck away from their territory

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