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Better Blueline: Toronto or Montreal?

View Poll Results: Better defence?
Toronto defence 345 70.41%
Montreal defence 145 29.59%
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Old
09-20-2009, 02:31 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Jesus. I wonder how many people here have actually played hockey before.

Looking at some of the responses here I can't help but laugh. It's like some people know nothing about how hockey is played and think of the NHL like fantasy hockey or NHL 09.

Toronto has the sexier names on their backend. But when I look at Toronto's d-men, I can't help but wonder how the hell they're going to get their transition game going. It's going to be hilarious watching that group trying to move the puck.

Montreal has 3 fantastic puck movers in Markov, Hamrlik and Spacek.

Toronto's d-men will be annoying to play against, but that's about it. Not a very dangerous group offensively, at all. Transition game is probably the most important attribute in a hockey team aside from maybe goaltending.
Kaberle is the best puckmover out of all the D-men from either team, so not sure what you're talking about.

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Old
09-20-2009, 02:32 PM
  #102
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toronto. not even close.

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Old
09-20-2009, 02:36 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Nathan311 View Post
Kaberle is the best puckmover out of all the D-men from either team, so not sure what you're talking about.
Neither Markov or Kaberle are top 5 DMAN in league... but Markov IS better than Kaberle, espically when it comes to moving the puck

One must give credit where its due.

Montreal has the better high end talent, but I think Toronto has a lot more blue line depth.

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Old
09-20-2009, 02:38 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Nathan311 View Post
Kaberle is the best puckmover out of all the D-men from either team, so not sure what you're talking about.
Even if he was, which he isn't, that's still only one guy.

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Old
09-20-2009, 02:48 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Even if he was, which he isn't, that's still only one guy.
You clearly have no idea.

Schenn has a wonderful first pass out of the zone.
As does Beauchemin.
Same can be said for White.

We'll be fine on the transition with Kaberle, Schenn, Beauchemin, and White all being more than okay at getting the puck to the forwards in transition.

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Old
09-20-2009, 02:51 PM
  #106
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toronto... sigh

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Old
09-20-2009, 02:59 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustavsson View Post
You clearly have no idea.

Schenn has a wonderful first pass out of the zone.
As does Beauchemin.
Same can be said for White.

We'll be fine on the transition with Kaberle, Schenn, Beauchemin, and White all being more than okay at getting the puck to the forwards in transition.
Odd, you'd think that such wonderful transition players would have better numbers. Instead, you have a bunch of ~20 point blueliners.

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Old
09-20-2009, 03:06 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Odd, you'd think that such wonderful transition players would have better numbers. Instead, you have a bunch of ~20 point blueliners.
You're making quite the jump there. Do you have any idea what transition is?

Transition is, literally, breaking out of the defensive zone and going on the attack. It's getting the puck to the forwards in the neutral zone; you don't need to be an offensive dynamo to be good at this.

Anything that happens after that is separate from the transition game.

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Old
09-20-2009, 03:13 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustavsson View Post
You're making quite the jump there. Do you have any idea what transition is?

Transition is, literally, breaking out of the defensive zone and going on the attack. It's getting the puck to the forwards in the neutral zone; you don't need to be an offensive dynamo to be good at this.

Anything that happens after that is separate from the transition game.
Oh no I totally understand that. But generally, good transition d-man put up more than 20 points a year. Even if they aren't in on every offensive opportunity. It's a bit of a stretch to say that 3+ d-men who put up ~20 points a season all have wonderful first passes.

Still doesn't change anything. They might be decent transition players, but Montreal's guys are better.

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Old
09-20-2009, 03:18 PM
  #110
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I'll take the Leafs mainly due to the depth as well as being younger and most of them are just entering the prime of their careers.

I love all the Habs fans throwing mud on Komi. All of them claim that they were complaining about how horrible he was last year. Was this before or after they voted him into the all star game?

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Old
09-20-2009, 03:19 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Curtis Belfour View Post
I'll take the Leafs mainly due to the depth as well as being younger and most of them are just entering the prime of their careers.

I love all the Habs fans throwing mud on Komi. All of them claim that they were complaining about how horrible he was last year. Was this before or after they voted him into the all star game?
ahah

we voted him because we wanted him to be there, not because he deserved whatsoever

he handles the puck like a grenade about to explode

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Old
09-20-2009, 03:21 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Oh no I totally understand that. But generally, good transition d-man put up more than 20 points a year. Even if they aren't in on every offensive opportunity. It's a bit of a stretch to say that 3+ d-men who put up ~20 points a season all have wonderful first passes.

Still doesn't change anything. They might be decent transition players, but Montreal's guys are better.
You can believe whatever you want waffledave. The Leafs transition will be fine with Tomas Kaberle, Beauchemin, Schenn and MVR. I think Ian White will be traded soon, but nonetheless he is a solid puck mover as well. Kaberle I think is poised to return to his old form (06-07 self), and we are praying Beauchemin and Komisarek are also back to their 07-08 forms......If that is the case then this comparison between Toronto's defense and Montreal's defense is not close at all IMO.

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Old
09-20-2009, 03:22 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLeastOfTheBunch View Post
You can believe whatever you want waffledave. The Leafs transition will be fine with Tomas Kaberle, Beauchemin, Schenn and MVR. I think Ian White will be traded soon, but nonetheless he is a solid puck mover as well. Kaberle I think is poised to return to his old form (06-07 self), and we are praying Beauchemin and Komisarek are also back to their 07-08 forms......If that is the case then this comparison between Toronto's defense and Montreal's defense is not close at all IMO.
I do not see the odds of Kaberle returning back to form when his career graphic is plunging since that said season

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Old
09-20-2009, 03:24 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Jesus. I wonder how many people here have actually played hockey before.

Looking at some of the responses here I can't help but laugh. It's like some people know nothing about how hockey is played and think of the NHL like fantasy hockey or NHL 09.

Toronto has the sexier names on their backend. But when I look at Toronto's d-men, I can't help but wonder how the hell they're going to get their transition game going. It's going to be hilarious watching that group trying to move the puck.

Montreal has 3 fantastic puck movers in Markov, Hamrlik and Spacek.

Toronto's d-men will be annoying to play against, but that's about it. Not a very dangerous group offensively, at all. Transition game is probably the most important attribute in a hockey team aside from maybe goaltending.
Do you realize that before Beauchemin got hurt last year and missed almost the whole season he put up very impressive #'s.
2005-06 Anaheim Ducks NHL 61 8 26 34 41
2006-07 Anaheim Ducks NHL 71 7 21 28 49
2007-08 Anaheim Ducks NHL 82 2 19 21 59

Those are far better numbers than Hamrlik and he is also 6 years younger.

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Old
09-20-2009, 03:25 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwishihadacup View Post
I do not see the odds of Kaberle returning back to form when his career graphic is plunging since that sais season
We will see but so far in the preseason, he has looked back in shape

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Old
09-20-2009, 03:25 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis Belfour View Post
Do you realize that before Beauchemin got hurt last year and missed almost the whole season he put up very impressive #'s.
2005-06 Anaheim Ducks NHL 61 8 26 34 41
2006-07 Anaheim Ducks NHL 71 7 21 28 49
2007-08 Anaheim Ducks NHL 82 2 19 21 59

Those are far better numbers than Hamrlik and he is also 6 years younger.

yet again, another 20s points defenseman

oh and Hamrlik had a better season in 2008-2009 than both 06-07 and 07-08 Beauchemin

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Old
09-20-2009, 03:28 PM
  #117
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You guys think toronto's D is better because you have the more "know" names but let me tell you if you watch hockey you will no that MTL defence is better then TO.You guys are all brian burkes b****** beliving everything he says and now that hes added some players you make it seem that hes added all 6'4 bobby orr's. Lol i can't wait for the season to begin on october 1 and just watch you guys trying to clear the zone while trying and hit the canadiens "smurfs" that apparenlty are gonna get killed every game vs toronto.

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Old
09-20-2009, 03:29 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis Belfour View Post
Do you realize that before Beauchemin got hurt last year and missed almost the whole season he put up very impressive #'s.
2005-06 Anaheim Ducks NHL 61 8 26 34 41
2006-07 Anaheim Ducks NHL 71 7 21 28 49
2007-08 Anaheim Ducks NHL 82 2 19 21 59

Those are far better numbers than Hamrlik and he is also 6 years younger.
Those numbers are decreasing every year. How is that supposed to prove anything?

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Old
09-20-2009, 03:31 PM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis Belfour View Post
Do you realize that before Beauchemin got hurt last year and missed almost the whole season he put up very impressive #'s.
2005-06 Anaheim Ducks NHL 61 8 26 34 41
2006-07 Anaheim Ducks NHL 71 7 21 28 49
2007-08 Anaheim Ducks NHL 82 2 19 21 59

Those are far better numbers than Hamrlik and he is also 6 years younger.
Beauchemin
2005-06: 72 GP, 8-28-36 (.50 PPG)
2006-07: 71 GP, 7-21-28 (.39 PPG)
2007-08: 82 GP, 2-19-21 (.26 PPG)
2008-09: 20 GP, 4-1-5 (.25 PPG)
Total: 245 GP, 21-69-90 (.36 PPG)

Hamrlik
2005-06: 51 GP, 7-19-26 (.51 PPG)
2006-07: 75 GP, 7-31-38 (.51 PPG)
2007-08: 77 GP, 5-21-26 (.34 PPG)
2008-09: 81 GP, 6-27-33 (.41 PPG)
Total: 284 GP, 25-98-123 (.43 PPG)

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Old
09-20-2009, 03:32 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLeastOfTheBunch View Post
You can believe whatever you want waffledave. The Leafs transition will be fine with Tomas Kaberle, Beauchemin, Schenn and MVR. I think Ian White will be traded soon, but nonetheless he is a solid puck mover as well. Kaberle I think is poised to return to his old form (06-07 self), and we are praying Beauchemin and Komisarek are also back to their 07-08 forms......If that is the case then this comparison between Toronto's defense and Montreal's defense is not close at all IMO.
So you're now counting on 3 players having career years? Well, good luck with that.

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Old
09-20-2009, 03:33 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Those numbers are decreasing every year. How is that supposed to prove anything?
Our defense should do fine transition wise, but in terms of offense, realistically, only Kaberle and maybe Francois (on the power play with his bomb of a shot) will make any sort of impact. Our forwards are mostly counted on to provide offense, the way IT should be.

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Old
09-20-2009, 03:34 PM
  #122
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Leafs

Toronto has way better D, plus Montreal's defense is soft

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Old
09-20-2009, 03:35 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
So you're now counting on 3 players having career years? Well, good luck with that.
I am not counting on having 3 players enjoy career seasons ...... Above average seasons in terms of what they are able to do? Yes, that is the least we are expecting out of the top 6.

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Old
09-20-2009, 03:39 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by JayzinSmith View Post
Beauchemin
2005-06: 72 GP, 8-28-36 (.50 PPG)
2006-07: 71 GP, 7-21-28 (.39 PPG)
2007-08: 82 GP, 2-19-21 (.26 PPG)
2008-09: 20 GP, 4-1-5 (.25 PPG)
Total: 245 GP, 21-69-90 (.36 PPG)

Hamrlik
2005-06: 51 GP, 7-19-26 (.51 PPG)
2006-07: 75 GP, 7-31-38 (.51 PPG)
2007-08: 77 GP, 5-21-26 (.34 PPG)
2008-09: 81 GP, 6-27-33 (.41 PPG)
Total: 284 GP, 25-98-123 (.43 PPG)
Because all you posted were stats, I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I'm hoping that you're not saying that Beauchemin is a better defenseman than Hamrlik...

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Old
09-20-2009, 03:44 PM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayzinSmith View Post
* Montreal
Andrei Markov
Jaroslav Spacek
Roman Hamrlik
Paul Mara
Hal Gill
Ryan O'Byrne
Josh Gorges

* Toronto
Tomas Kaberle
Mike Komisarek
Luke Schenn
Francois Beauchemin
Garnet Exelby
Ian White (also RW)
Mike Van Ryn
Jeff Finger


Perhaps Toronto but I'm not sure. Long time I'd rather keep ours though (guys like Weber, Subban, O'Byrne, Markov, Gorges will be valuable for a very long time).

I will try to analyze this with the most objective critics possible.

The two quarterback: I give the edge without much difficulty to Markov because he has proven to be a more complete player. He is also very good comes playoff time while Kabby I'm not completely sold. Markov is just incredible on the PP, we have to give him that. Kaberle has a better shot, I think, but Markov's vision and ability to locate teammates is just in a league of his own.

For the shutdown pair on both side: Komisarek and Beauchemin are a better pairing than Hamrlik and Gill without a shadow of a doubt. Beauchemin is a proven winner, while Gill also played a big role in Penguins's conquest, but Beauchemin's role was larger. All considered, Mara is probably ahead of Gill the depth chart but this doesn't change much for the Habs, they are both way behind the Leafs two big defenders. Hamrlik is the better offensive defenceman of the four, though.

Then, as the other PPer, we have Spacek versus Van Ryn. Not much of a doubt that Spacek is better by a very wide margin. Like some Buffalo fans pointed out, Spacek had been their number one defenceman for three consecutive years, and in one year Buffalo even competed for the Cup, so that tells a lot about his underrated skills. He is also very capable in his zone, and can play the PK. His shot is lethal and will mix very well with Van Ryn. Not much of an argument. I would even think Spacek will be more valuable than Komisarek overall, but that's arguable.

And then there is the youngster. Gorges and Schenn will both play the number 4 role for their respective team. Their style is very different, and Gorges is ahead of Schenn because he is older and already have a lot of experiences. I think that, for now, Gorges is better. Remember, he was leading the Habs in +/- ratio last season with +12. He is very versatile as he can play in any situation, he brings leadership and he isnt affraid to take a hit to complete a play.

And as the fillers, the #6 and 7 guys, it's a matchup between the giants O'Byrne and Hal Gill and Jeff Finger and Garnett Exelby. I am not very comfortable with Leafs's depth charts so I couldn't positively tell if White is ahead of one of these two but I wouldn't think so. Right now, Finger or Exelby are better than O'Byrne, and I think Gill is equally as effective as the two. Finger and Gill will both fills the number.6 role and I think Gill brings more tools than Finger. Finger is more mobile and can move the puck better, but Gill is just so valuable on the PK, and his experience and attitude is much needed in the Habs's locker room. I'd say Gill > Finger by a little, and Exelby >*O'Byrne by a miles.

So in résumé;
Markov > Kaberle
Beauchemin > Hamrlik
Komisarek > Mara
Spacek > Van Ryn
Gorges >*Schenn
Gill > Finger
Exelby > O'Byrne

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