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Anton Babchuk to Avangard Omsk (KHL)

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Old
09-20-2009, 04:44 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazedcanuck View Post
Listen, nearly every young D has holes in their game.
Yes, they do and when you walk out on your team twice and show a clear self-centered attitude the downside risks are greater. This whole saga goes beyond what Babchuk did to generate impressive stats thanks in large part to his hot streak over the final 1/3 of the season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
Rutherford thought Babs was only worth 1mill. Babs could have asked for a small raise and Rutherford would have said he'd only get that deal in the KHL. It's Rutherford unwillingness to trade Babs because of a personal grudge.

Notice I said he's an above average defenseman when he's on. Clearly, the fact that the Devils gameplanned to shut him down in the 1st round had an effect on his play. It's always a bad thing to have a player that teams must plan around though, right?

Then why aren't you angry that JR wasn't able to get ANYTHING for him? I like Babs, but I wouldn't have cared if he was on the team this upcoming season or not. I do care, however, that we let a player like that walk without getting anything for him. Especially after JR ignored at least one offer for said player.

That's letting a personal grudge get in the way of improving the team.
Right Babchuk wanted to lock in only a small raise over 3 years? Get serious here. Plus nobody was willing to trade for him for a small raise over $1 million. You are letting your fandom get the best of you man.

Babchuk was horrible against the Devils, Bruins and Pens. Face the facts, he was ineffective and got a seat in the press box. How many other leading blueline scorers had the same fate in the playoffs? Uh...none.

The fact that nobody considered an offer sheet is telling so I doubt there was a good trade value to be had. I'm not mad the Canes got nothing for him because they still the cards for now, they still retain his rights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkyMarkNC View Post
How many 24 yr. old defenseman are not liability's in these ways? He still has more upside potential than any of our young prospects do.
How many of them burned bridges at every level possible - U18 team in Russia, Blackhawks and the Canes (refused a demotion and then left for Russia)? How many are told the plan is play again in the top 4 for a playoff team in a non-pressure market, and they say well I know I left twice but I deserve a raise, look at my stats?

The guy was on a short leash, and it was his own doing. Then he decided his partial year was worth a multi-year contract and he's done. Besides, McBain has much better all-around potential than Babchuk, who is really only a partial (cannon shot) PP specialist.

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Old
09-20-2009, 05:16 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Right Babchuk wanted to lock in only a small raise over 3 years? Get serious here. Plus nobody was willing to trade for him for a small raise over $1 million. You are letting your fandom get the best of you man.
Any proof that it wasn't a small raise? Any proof that no one wanted to trade for him? In fact, there's the exact opposite of that, as once again, JR stated he had at least one offer for him and was waiting on a more lucrative counter offer from another team. It's not fandom, it's a fact.

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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Babchuk was horrible against the Devils, Bruins and Pens. Face the facts, he was ineffective and got a seat in the press box. How many other leading blueline scorers had the same fate in the playoffs? Uh...none.
Game 1-3 against Jersey, he was given his usual time, and when it became obvious that the Devils were gameplanning against him, his icetime decreased in Game 4 and benched in Game 5. He returned in Game 6 and 7 playing his normal ice time.

Against the Bruins, he played the entire series at a decreased ice time, except Game 7 where he was benched. His only minuses in that series were in Game 5 and 6, where we know the team was just stellar in those games

Against Pittsburgh, he played Game 4, as an act of desperation by Maurice. Hard to say he was "horrible" against them when he rarely played them. And considering the defensive efforts of the entire team during that series, his play was average.

In fact, if you look at the defensive efforts of the entire team throughout the playoffs, Babs was about average. Babs was shutdown against the Devils, Corvo was destroyed against the Bruins and Gleason was Malkin's plaything against Pittsburgh.

The real stat to look at during those playoffs: PP% - 10. Over 18 games, 60 chances, they scored only 6 times. And I know a couple of those goals were fluky, non-PP-setup goals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
The fact that nobody considered an offer sheet is telling so I doubt there was a good trade value to be had. I'm not mad the Canes got nothing for him because they still the cards for now, they still retain his rights.
Whatever value he had, it's less now that JR forced him to Russia a second time. He had great value at the beginning of the offseason, then JR started bashing him publicly and it went down. And yet JR continued to ask for "a young defensive prospect". And now Babs is in Russia and his value is 0.

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Old
09-20-2009, 05:28 PM
  #53
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It's not hard to gameplan against a guy when the only thing you have to worry about is his shot from the point.

If it's that easy to shut him down, then maybe that's a sign he isn't all that great?

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09-20-2009, 05:31 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
It's not hard to gameplan against a guy when the only thing you have to worry about is his shot from the point.

If it's that easy to shut him down, then maybe that's a sign he isn't all that great?
It's never a bad thing to have a player that the opponent has to gameplan against.

But it wasn't hard to shut him down, since Carolina's PP essentially consisted of "Give the puck to Babchuk, if he's not open, pass it to Staal and he'll try a wraparound 50 times"

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Old
09-20-2009, 05:33 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkyMarkNC View Post
How many 24 yr. old defenseman are not liability's in these ways? He still has more upside potential than any of our young prospects do. JR doesn't screw up that often, but letting Babchuk go, and getting NOTHING in return makes this team worse long term.
Not quite. McBain is a much better skater and has a lot more creativity with the puck then Babchuk. We'll see where he is in terms of awareness and his defensive game in the AHL this year, but he can't be that far off. I've also heard a lot of good things about Dumoulin with some scouts comparing him to Ryan Whitney. Babchuk still has a lot of upside, but his poor skating will prevent him from ever truly reaching it. If McBain and Dumoulin even sniff their potential they're going to prove to be better players in the long run.

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Old
09-20-2009, 05:41 PM
  #56
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Quote:
"There's a good chance it's true," Rutherford said. "I had conversations with his agent last night and I knew they had been talking back and forth. His agent asked Anton to wait until Monday.
Quote:
UPDATE: Babchuk's agent, Don Meehan, said it was his understanding Babchuk would play in Russia this season, although noting he had not yet confirmed it with Babchuk, either.
http://blogs.newsobserver.com/canes/...to-play-in-khl

Anton is making his own deals.

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Old
09-20-2009, 05:55 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
Any proof that it wasn't a small raise? Any proof that no one wanted to trade for him? In fact, there's the exact opposite of that, as once again, JR stated he had at least one offer for him and was waiting on a more lucrative counter offer from another team. It's not fandom, it's a fact.

Whatever value he had, it's less now that JR forced him to Russia a second time. He had great value at the beginning of the offseason, then JR started bashing him publicly and it went down. And yet JR continued to ask for "a young defensive prospect". And now Babs is in Russia and his value is 0.
Again, you misread and your posts have fandom written all over them. I wrote "Plus nobody was willing to trade for him for a small raise over $1 million." The point being if he only wanted a small raise, somebody would certainly have taken a chance. Do you honestly think Babchuk and his camp would try to lock-in a small raise for 3 years? Really?

Look, Babchuk had a chance to stay in the NHL play well, and in the top 4, and then cash in. Yet you think he bears no responsibility even with the reports that his own agent asked him to be patient? Yes, poor misunderstood Anton.

Babchuk's play was not bashed at all by Rutherford, he simply said he was asking for too much money and the Canes would move on. Now he did mildly criticize Seidenberg after talks had broken off and Ward was reacquired.

I wanted Babchuk to succeed, pure and simple. But I have little patience for prima donnas who put themselves first and act with a sense of entitlement. It was time for him to go after you add it all up. You want to ignore the past and place the blame squarely on Rutherford and ignore the fact that Carolina still has Babchuk's rights.. That's fine, I'll continue to deal with the facts.

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Old
09-20-2009, 05:56 PM
  #58
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Good news for Devils fans. Brodeur is incapable of stopping his slapshot.

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09-20-2009, 06:08 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Again, you misread and your posts have fandom written all over them. I wrote "Plus nobody was willing to trade for him for a small raise over $1 million." The point being if he only wanted a small raise, somebody would certainly have taken a chance. Do you honestly think Babchuk and his camp would try to lock-in a small raise for 3 years? Really?
Again, apparently at least one team wanted to take a chance, which JR ignored. And if the rumors have even the slightest basis in truth, there were a couple teams interested in Babchuk. Do you honestly believe no team wanted to take a chance on him? None at all?

I think it's quite simple. JR lowballed Babchuk, and that's when it became obvious no matter what happened, JR was going to hold that AHL grudge. Thus, Babchuk asked for a trade.

So yes, I believe if Babchuk's rights would have been traded, he would have signed for a multi-year deal with a small raise. He wanted to get away from JR, whose history with dealing with situations like this aren't exactly a spotless record.

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Old
09-20-2009, 06:09 PM
  #60
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Huh? He said he wanted to stay in the NHl and I believe him. But what can he do? Carolina doesn't want him, nor does any team want to trade for his rights. So what do you suggest him to do? Not play at all?
If he really wanted to play here, he would've taken his QO.

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Old
09-20-2009, 06:12 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
Again, apparently at least one team wanted to take a chance, which JR ignored.
I'm confident you'll dismiss it, but here's some more reality...

Quote:
"There's a good chance it's true," Rutherford said. "I had conversations with his agent last night and I knew they had been talking back and forth. His agent asked Anton to wait until Monday.

"We're fine with it. He will be another year away from free agency and we retain his rights. He's still our property."

UPDATE: Babchuk's agent, Don Meehan, said it was his understanding Babchuk would play in Russia this season, although noting he had not yet confirmed it with Babchuk, either.

Rutherford had been trying to work a trade for Babchuk, a restricted free agent who played in Russia two years ago, forfeiting his arbitration rights. He said he talked with a team this week that initially had shown interest in a deal, backed away and then came calling again.
http://blogs.newsobserver.com/canes/...to-play-in-khl

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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
If he really wanted to play here, he would've taken his QO.
Indeed but to his way of thinking, a partial season is worth a multi-year deal and big raise. Maybe the KHL is the place for him after all.

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09-20-2009, 06:38 PM
  #62
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if the signing is true, it really doesn't look to good on babchuk...bolting to Russia twice in the span of a couple seasons

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09-20-2009, 07:10 PM
  #63
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8th place in goals by a defensemen last season. GOOD RIDDANCE!

Here is a list of defensemen BUMS in the top 50 he had more goals than. Hopefully they will pack up their **** and scram to the KHL as well.

Bryan McCabe
Scott Niedermayer
Pavel Kubina
Joe Corvo
Marc-Andre Bergeron
Dennis Wideman
Andrei Markov
Marek Zidlicky
John-Michael Liles
Chris Pronger
Dion Phaneuf
Kevin Bieksa
Chris Campoli
Brian Rafalski
Rob Blake
Alexander Edler
Adrian Aucoin
Kris Letang
Ian White
Ed Jovanovski
Fedor Tyutin
Mathieu Schneider
Zach Bogosian
Jaroslav Spacek
Duncan Keith
Christian Ehrhoff
Lubomir Visnovsky
Michal Rozsival
Brent Burns
Brent Seabrook
Brian Campbell
Ryan Suter
Denis Grebeshkov
Joni Pitkanen
John Oduya
Braydon Coburn
Trevor Daley
Jordan Leopold
Niklas Kronwall
Cam Barker
Ron Hainsey

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09-20-2009, 07:14 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by VladNYC View Post
8th place in goals by a defensemen last season. GOOD RIDDANCE!

Here is a list of defensemen BUMS in the top 50 he had more goals than. Hopefully they will pack up their **** and scram to the KHL as well.

Bryan McCabe
Scott Niedermayer
Pavel Kubina
Joe Corvo
Marc-Andre Bergeron
Dennis Wideman
Andrei Markov
Marek Zidlicky
John-Michael Liles
Chris Pronger
Dion Phaneuf
Kevin Bieksa
Chris Campoli
Brian Rafalski
Rob Blake
Alexander Edler
Adrian Aucoin
Kris Letang
Ian White
Ed Jovanovski
Fedor Tyutin
Mathieu Schneider
Zach Bogosian
Jaroslav Spacek
Duncan Keith
Christian Ehrhoff
Lubomir Visnovsky
Michal Rozsival
Brent Burns
Brent Seabrook
Brian Campbell
Ryan Suter
Denis Grebeshkov
Joni Pitkanen
John Oduya
Braydon Coburn
Trevor Daley
Jordan Leopold
Niklas Kronwall
Cam Barker
Ron Hainsey
That's good, because he's deficient in every other way to the players you list here. No one's going to lose any sleep over the fact that Babchuk's in the KNL next year.

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Old
09-20-2009, 07:18 PM
  #65
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Yup, because scoring goals is all their is to being a defenseman.

Let's ignore that fact that he leaves a lot to be desired in the most important aspects of his position.

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Old
09-20-2009, 07:53 PM
  #66
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Well, only 8 (!) NHL defensemen scored 16+ goals last season. Sure Rutherford operated in the terms of the CBA, but that offer shows absolutely no respect for that kind of performance.
If other team wanted to sign him, it needed to give sg. back to Carolina. Way much worse situation than it has been for Carolina holding Anton's rights. Same with the potential offer sheet. Rutherford thinks Anton's worth nothing, so why did he want anything valuable from the other teams? He should let him go.
Now Anton has to wait till the UFA status (not too long) and we'll see what happens in this saga.
What respect should he show? The guy was scratched during portions of the playoffs. I agree Rutherford had a grudge, but this is business. Signing Babchuk to a contract was low on the Canes priority list..he isn't one of their top players (even with 16 goals) and wasn't going to receive a much better offer.

If he was as valuable as you say, then someone would have made him an offer sheet..even if it meant compensation to the Canes (heck..someone could have offered him 1.5M and it would have only cost a 2nd or 3rd I think).

Face it, the Canes and other teams GMs didn't value him as much as he or his agent did.

And Rutherford should NOT have just let Anton go. I would have hoped he could get some compensation, but that's life.

I don't begrudge Anton for trying to get more money or choosing to go the the KHL. Lower tier players like Babchuk have a limited window to make money in this game and need to go for the money whenever they can.

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09-20-2009, 09:48 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I can't find anything else to corroborate this though, nothing on Google News, nothing on ESPN Insider or on TSN or anything like that.....
What would ESPN Insider or TSN know about KHL signings?
His contract has been verified by GM Bardin and will be registered Monday. He's been in Omsk a week has already held workouts with the team.

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Old
09-21-2009, 11:24 AM
  #68
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Babchuk signs with Avangard Omsk per RDS.ca

http://www.rds.ca/hockey/chroniques/282801.html

1.5M per, no lenght disclosed

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Old
09-21-2009, 03:29 PM
  #69
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Shame, he's got flaws to his game but he's better then a lot of defenders out there. Hopefully he doesn't give up on the NHL and a team signs him as a UFA next year.

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09-21-2009, 03:50 PM
  #70
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Shame, he's got flaws to his game but he's better then a lot of defenders out there. Hopefully he doesn't give up on the NHL and a team signs him as a UFA next year.
Actually it would have to be in 2 years. The Canes will still hold his rights for 2010-11 as well assuming they toss him a qualifying offer.

Interesting thing that I noticed in the N&O today is that JR doesn't entirely rule out the idea of Babchuk making a comeback to Carolina. That I found quite interesting, I'm trying to dig up the article online.

edit:
http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/story/1698919.html

Quote:
"Nothing about this angers me," Rutherford said. "It's disappointing that he doesn't understand how the system works. And he's not going to be able to figure out a way to beat the system."

....

"I don't think anything different of him," Rutherford said. "I think he's a solid NHL player that given the opportunity should score 15 goals every year. He may very well, the next time he plays [in the NHL], do it here."

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Old
09-21-2009, 04:16 PM
  #71
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Actually it would have to be in 2 years. The Canes will still hold his rights for 2010-11 as well assuming they toss him a qualifying offer.
Actually, since the Canes tendered a QO this year at the expiration of his SPC, no future QOs (or offers of any kind) are needed to preserve their RFA rights - until AB (DOB: 5/6/84) becomes a UFA in '11-'12.

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09-21-2009, 04:28 PM
  #72
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I'm surprised no GM stepped up and threw Rutherford a bone. Sure he might have a couple holes in his game but there will be a pile of lesser defenders making more money than they 1.5 that he signed for in Russia. Steve Staios for example is 2.7 million dollars and he's a poor mans Jason Smith who just retired.

I've seen some talk that Babchuk was horrible in the playoffs this year but Chara was absolutely dreadful in the playoffs and he won the freaking Norris last year.

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09-21-2009, 06:44 PM
  #73
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I'm surprised no GM stepped up and threw Rutherford a bone. Sure he might have a couple holes in his game but there will be a pile of lesser defenders making more money than they 1.5 that he signed for in Russia. Steve Staios for example is 2.7 million dollars and he's a poor mans Jason Smith who just retired.

I've seen some talk that Babchuk was horrible in the playoffs this year but Chara was absolutely dreadful in the playoffs and he won the freaking Norris last year.
From everything I've read, it seems like Rutherford didn't WANT to trade him, nor did he want to resign him for over 1 million. My guess is that he either expected Babchuk to cave and accept 1 million or bolt to Russia.

He's young and scored 16 goals last season. And he only wanted a salary of ~1.5 million/year. I can't imagine teams weren't interested (Rutherford himself admitted they were).

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09-21-2009, 07:02 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Smooth Skating View Post
I'm surprised no GM stepped up and threw Rutherford a bone. Sure he might have a couple holes in his game but there will be a pile of lesser defenders making more money than they 1.5 that he signed for in Russia. Steve Staios for example is 2.7 million dollars and he's a poor mans Jason Smith who just retired.
You can't compare KHL and NHL contracts. With the low flat-rate taxes in Russia and other perks they get, NHL deals have to be significantly higher to equal out.

For example, some estimates are that when converting KHL deals to on par NHL deal values, the factor can be as high as 2-2.5x when everything is factored in. In other words, a $2 M dollar KHL deal would have to be worth $4-5 M in the NHL to net out to same after tax income for the player.

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