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Old
09-20-2009, 04:15 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitto79 View Post
Alright to justify the lines

Prospal, Dubinsky, Gaborik.........Prospal sets up Gabby, Dubi is the best C option ,at this pt

Higgins, Drury, Callahan.......that line just grinds it out, great defensively, its a perfect shut down line that can score

Lisin, Anisimov, Kotalik.....they can fly and have great offensive upside. This team needs them to be a big part of the offense

Avery, Boyle, Brashear, they are big and they are tough, they can keep the puck in the other end

With that said Torts will bump guys around, some will get more PK time and some will get more PP..........for all Avery fans I still think he is a big part of the team but he is better off on a grinding 4th line and on the PK
Good lines, i'd switch Cally and Kotalik to start, just to spread out the forecheckers in Cally and Higgins and explore this chemistry that we have been told Drury and Kotalik have.

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Old
09-20-2009, 04:20 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
No Avery is not an impact player.

No he is not more of an impact player then Lisin.

And no Avery does not need to be on the ice more then Lisin.

Avery is not a gifted offensive talent. He is not big. He is not faster, stronger, or a better player then Lisin.

Lisin is bigger, stronger, faster, and a better player.

The ONLY thing Avery does better is being a pain in the ass.

He can do that from the 4th line just fine.

Avery does not have untapped potential. He is what he is. He is not ever going to reach 20 goals.

Lisin has 25 or more goal potential. Plays in every situation. And is not a risk for taking stupid penalties.

Sorry but this is not even a close discussion.

Avery is a role player, and that's all he will ever be. Lisin has the skill to be an offensive leader.

Unless Prospal or Kotalik play poorly enough to be on the 4th line (no chance) Avery is NOT a top 9 player on THIS team. Sorry but those are the breaks. He doesn't provide enough to warrant playing above players that are better players then he.

I love Avery just as much as the next guy, but he is not anywhere near a better player then Lisin...

Avery will be fine, playing his role, with Brashear and Boyle.

He doesn't need to be in an offensive spot to do the things he does. He'll still get his 8 goals this year.
Avery in the regular season
  • Sean Avery has 28 goals and 37 assists for 65 points in 104 total regular season games as a Ranger over (parts of) the last three seasons. That's a point every 1.6 games. If you go season-by-season, he more or less has scored at that same rate. That's a relatively large sample -- at least large enough to say with some significant degree of certainty, this is Sean Avery, this is what he brings to the table, offensively, at least in terms of what can be measured.

Avery in the playoffs
  • In the playoffs, Avery has 5 goals and 9 assists for 14 total points in 24 total playoff games as a Ranger. That's a point every 1.7 games (again, he's still at that same rate). In 2006-07 against Atlanta, Avery didn't need to score really to make an impact -- his game completely broke the Thrashers' focus. In 2007-08, Avery was brilliant against Devils. Last year, he was out best player, hands down, in Game 7 against Washington. Oh yeah, and he played a playoff game with a lacerated spleen.

Other
  • Of course, not everything shows just in the statistics, and that's especially true when it comes to Avery. If I have to explain that fact to someone, I'm not sure its worth even having a discussion about this. If you take the broadest view, the Rangers before Avery and after Avery in the 2006-07 and 2008-09 seasons are totally different teams; in both of those seasons, after Avery's arrival, the team was more aggressive, more energetic and much more successful, as the team rode second-half surges into the playoffs.

  • Jaromir Jagr (who combined with Avery to great effect, along with Dubinsky) and Chris Drury are on record saying how valuable Sean is to the team.

Avery accomplished all of the above playing significant minutes on the 1st, 2nd and 3rd lines.

In contrast... Enver Lisin has played just 1 full season in the NHL, and has never played in a playoff game, and has really never played in any games that matter at all (in stark, stark contrast to Avery). In essense, he has accomplished nothing. You used the word yourself - he has "potential."

Let's let Lisin realize his potential a bit, in games that matter, before we relegate a player who has been a key part of our success in the last three seasons to playing 5 minutes a game.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Avery...is not ever going to reach 20 goals....

He doesn't need to be in an offensive spot to do the things he does. He'll still get his 8 goals this year.
In 2007-08 (not exactly a long time ago) Avery scored 15 goals... in only 57 games.

Avery's 28 goals in 104 regular season games as a Ranger, that averages out to about 22 goals every 82 games.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Sorry but this is not even a close discussion.
You lose all credibility when you say something like that.


Last edited by Kind of Blue: 09-20-2009 at 05:31 PM.
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Old
09-20-2009, 04:22 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
I can't agree with that logic. At all.

You put the best team on the ice, regardless of what a player was signed for.

I think Prospal is the superior offensive player, compared to Sean.


Vally did a fantastic job last season as a back-up.

This team is very soft, Avery needs to be in the top 9 to add some grit. He also has speed and enough offensive to warrant being on the 3rd line. I suppose the option is Lisin on the 4th but he has impressed me so far, great speed and has shown some skill as well. Prospal is not in the same league as Lisin when it comes to speed and even Avery really.

Vally worries me when he is in net, i just dont have much confidence in him. He lets up soft goals and had some terrible games.

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Old
09-20-2009, 04:23 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitto79 View Post
Alright to justify the lines

Prospal, Dubinsky, Gaborik.........Prospal sets up Gabby, Dubi is the best C option ,at this pt

Higgins, Drury, Callahan.......that line just grinds it out, great defensively, its a perfect shut down line that can score

Lisin, Anisimov, Kotalik.....they can fly and have great offensive upside. This team needs them to be a big part of the offense

Avery, Boyle, Brashear, they are big and they are tough, they can keep the puck in the other end

With that said Torts will bump guys around, some will get more PK time and some will get more PP..........for all Avery fans I still think he is a big part of the team but he is better off on a grinding 4th line and on the PK
The lines I posted are identical to this, aside from Kotalik/Lisin (I had them reversed, with Enver on the right side).

I have no issues with trying out pretty much everyone, everywhere, just to see how things play out.

I just don't see Avery and Dubinsky as the right mates for someone like Gaborik. Dubinsky yes. Avery, no.

Going to need a little more skill on that side, and that's where I think Prospal or Kotalik will leave their stamp.

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09-20-2009, 04:30 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sayba View Post
This team is very soft, Avery needs to be in the top 9 to add some grit. He also has speed and enough offensive to warrant being on the 3rd line. I suppose the option is Lisin on the 4th but he has impressed me so far, great speed and has shown some skill as well. Prospal is not in the same league as Lisin when it comes to speed and even Avery really.

Vally worries me when he is in net, i just dont have much confidence in him. He lets up soft goals and had some terrible games.
I think you may have higher expectations out of a back-up than me. I have no issues with Vally as a back-up, playing a dozen games or so a year. 5-5 last season, 5-3 the year before.

I'll take .500 from a back-up.

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Old
09-20-2009, 04:41 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
I think you may have higher expectations out of a back-up than me. I have no issues with Vally as a back-up, playing a dozen games or so a year. 5-5 last season, 5-3 the year before.

I'll take .500 from a back-up.
It's not a huge issue to me but if there is a chance to improve a position then it should be done. Also Torts has stated he plans to play his back-up more this season, so our back-up is of more significance if he actually does do that.

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Old
09-20-2009, 04:49 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kind of Blue View Post
Avery in the regular season
  • Sean Avery has 28 goals and 37 assists for 65 points in 104 total regular season games as a Ranger over (parts of) the last three seasons. That's a point every 1.6 games. If you go season-by-season, he more or less has scored at that same rate. That's a relatively large sample - at least enough to say with some significant degree of certainty, this is Sean Avery, this is what he brings to the table, offensively, at least in terms of what can be measured.
And let's not forget the stretch of time where the Avery-Dubinsky-Jagr line was firing on all cylinders, and Avery was racking up points for a solid stretch (until Renney, in classic Renney fashion, broke the line up). Honestly, I think it would be possibly for Avery to contribute at a higher clip is placed in the right circumstances. He has the speed to keep up with Gaborik.

Someone from the Minnesota board came over at one point and mentioned that Gabs played better with a less skilled player with speed than with a slower player who couldn't keep up.

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09-20-2009, 04:52 PM
  #58
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The Lisin V Avery thing seems to be getting pretty heated, but remember that 10 top 9 forwards is a GOOD thing, especially if somebody(not saying who) goes down withan injury.

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Old
09-20-2009, 04:54 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
The Lisin V Avery thing seems to be getting pretty heated, but remember that 10 top 9 forwards is a GOOD thing, especially if somebody(not saying who) goes down withan injury.
I just don't get how anyone can argue that Lisin is a better player than Sean Avery. Does he have more pure offensive skill? Probably. Might he become a better player in the near future? Possibly. Has he shown in his 78 NHL and 70 AHL games to be a better player AT THIS POINT? Come on.

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Old
09-20-2009, 04:55 PM
  #60
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My shot:

Prospal - Dubinsky - Gaborik
Higgins - Drury - Kotalik
Avery - Anisimov - Callahan
Brashear - Boyle - Lisin

Extra: Voros

Double shift someone with Lisin and Boyle once in a while.

Staal-Gilroy
Del Zotto-Girardi
Redden-Rozsival

Extra: Semenov

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Old
09-20-2009, 04:56 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
I just don't get how anyone can argue that Lisin is a better player than Sean Avery. Does he have more pure offensive skill? Probably. Might he become a better player in the near future? Possibly. Has he shown in his 78 NHL and 70 AHL games to be a better player AT THIS POINT? Come on.
Point is putting Avery on the 4th line isnt going to hamper his development into a potenial 1st line player. Lisin it might. in a season that I see as a bit of a rebuild/let the kids play year, I think Lisin;s development is a bit more important than the difference of what Avery does on the third or 4th line.

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Old
09-20-2009, 05:03 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
Point is putting Avery on the 4th line isnt going to hamper his development into a potenial 1st line player. Lisin it might. in a season that I see as a bit of a rebuild/let the kids play year, I think Lisin;s development is a bit more important than the difference of what Avery does on the third or 4th line.
And that's all well and good, I've got nothing to say in the debate as to who goes on what line. Just saying that RIGHT NOW, it's silly to say Enver Lisin is better since he's proven nothing.

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Old
09-20-2009, 05:03 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
I just don't get how anyone can argue that Lisin is a better player than Sean Avery. Does he have more pure offensive skill? Probably. Might he become a better player in the near future? Possibly. Has he shown in his 78 NHL and 70 AHL games to be a better player AT THIS POINT? Come on.
Exactly. Avery has proven he can be effective by drawing penalties as well as putting up around 15 goals. Avery's a proven commodity and Lisin is still a question mark. Not saying he doesn't deserve a shot, he's just the unfortunate odd man out.

And I've said it before and I'll say it again. Sather didn't go through the trouble of re-acquiring Avery so he could play 5 minutes on the 4th line every night.

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Old
09-20-2009, 05:06 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
Point is putting Avery on the 4th line isnt going to hamper his development into a potenial 1st line player. Lisin it might. in a season that I see as a bit of a rebuild/let the kids play year, I think Lisin;s development is a bit more important than the difference of what Avery does on the third or 4th line.
I have to argue that our top priority is putting on the ice the team that gives us the best chance to win. Now.

If Avery can contribute more than Lisin right now, then Avery needs to play more than Lisin.

Lisin's development is a much lower priority. In other words, yes, playing Lisin more minutes and in the top 9 will help his development, and yes, I suppose its conceivable that he could ultimately develop into a top line player, but if this is done at the expense of a player who has a better chance of helping us win right now, then it is not worth doing.

You know how the season goes, Lisin is eventually going to have PLENTY of chances to prove his worth.


Last edited by Kind of Blue: 09-20-2009 at 05:19 PM.
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Old
09-20-2009, 05:15 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Kind of Blue View Post
I have to argue that our top priority is putting on the ice the team that gives us the best chance to win. Now.

If Avery can contribute more than Lisin right now, then Avery needs to play more than Lisin.

Lisin's development is a much lower priority. In other words, yes, playing Lisin more minutes and in the top 9 will help his development, but if its done at the expense of a player who has a better chance of helping us win right now, then it is not worth doing.

You know how the season goes, Lisin is eventually going to have PLENTY of chances to prove his worth.
I said I wasn't going to get involved in the debate as to who is on what line, but...

I agree.

I think Lisin has looked pretty good over the course of the preseason so far. However, Sean Avery has looked pretty good himself. I haven't seen anything from Lisin that was so awesome that he's going to supplant an established veteran.

I like Lisin, and I'm definitely warming to him. However, I think it's most likely and most reasonable that he starts as the spare forward and fills in when necessary. Supposedly Tortorella is all about accountability and earning your ice time...Lisin has earned a spot on the team but hasn't earned regular minutes ahead of established players, as far as I'm concerned.

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Old
09-20-2009, 05:16 PM
  #66
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I have no problem with that opinion. I just happen to think Avery hampers our team's progress. But I respect your opinions.

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09-20-2009, 05:17 PM
  #67
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Prospal - Dubinsky - Gaborik
Higgins - Drury - Callahan
Kotalik - Anisimov - Lisin
Avery - Boyle - Brashear
Voros

Staal - Gilroy
Redden - Rozsival
Del zotto - Girardi
Semenov

Lundqvist
Valiquette


Something along these lines. Flame away.

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Old
09-20-2009, 05:19 PM
  #68
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I found the post by Wild Thing.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p...6#post20234506

Quote:
If the Rangers coaching staff is browsing this forum tonight, and they only read one post, i hope it's this one. I hope they read it, carve it in stone, and hang it on the wall of their office.

All the years Gaborik was here, Minnesota was obsessed with finding him a center whose offensive skills were on a par with Gaborik's. They never came close, of course, because there just aren't many such centers out there, but they were so consumed with their quest that they never learned the lesson that was right under their noses - that the best center for Gaborik is simply one who can keep up with him so that Gaborik, who's terrible on breakaways, doesn't have to carry the puck end to end all by himself. By far, the best center Gaborik ever had here in Minnesota was Wes Walz, the checking center. His offensive skills were adequate, but limited. However, he was easily the second fastest skater on the team, and one of the 4 or 5 fastest skaters in the league, and every time he and Gaborik were paired up, the points piled up hip deep. And then as soon as some other slower but more talented center was back from injury or whatever, Walz and Gaborik would be split up again, and Gabby's production would drop.

Risebrough and Lemaire never seemed to learn, and it was one of the biggest mistakes Lemaire ever made here. I hope your coaching staff doesn't fall into the same conventional thinking. Ideally, if you can get him a center with comparable talent and comparable speed, you'll be looking at 100 points a year; but if you can't find that or can't afford it, go with a center with comparable speed and let Gaborik be his own setup man. Just don't put him the position of having to skate the puck into the zone all by himself every time he gets his stick on it.

Now obviously, neither Lisin or Avery are centers, but the point still stands. Obviously Lisin is fast, but he's also unproven. I'm not opposed to him playing with Gabs, but I think Avery might be a better fit. My main issue is that people stop reacting to the notion of putting Avery with Gabs like it would be the end of the world.

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09-20-2009, 05:24 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darko View Post
Prospal - Dubinsky - Gaborik
Higgins - Drury - Callahan
Kotalik - Anisimov - Lisin
Avery - Boyle - Brashear
Voros

Staal - Gilroy
Redden - Rozsival
Del zotto - Girardi
Semenov

Lundqvist
Valiquette


Something along these lines. Flame away.
I would put Voros in Avery's spot, Avery on the third line and Lisin as the spare. Otherwise, I totally agree. Especially on the D pairings.

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Old
09-20-2009, 06:13 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by we want cup View Post
I found the post by Wild Thing.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p...6#post20234506




Now obviously, neither Lisin or Avery are centers, but the point still stands. Obviously Lisin is fast, but he's also unproven. I'm not opposed to him playing with Gabs, but I think Avery might be a better fit. My main issue is that people stop reacting to the notion of putting Avery with Gabs like it would be the end of the world.
Somebody mentioned putting Gaborik with Anisimov and Lisin, and I think that's something worth investigating. I don't think that's a line I would go with on opening night, you're probably not going to put your 7milllion a year acquisition with a rookie and an almost rookie, but as the year progresses on it might be worth a look.

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Old
09-20-2009, 06:56 PM
  #71
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Prospal - Dubinsky - Gaborik
Higgins - Drury - Kotalik
Lisin - Anisimov - Callahan
Avery - Boyle - Brashear
Voros

Staal - Gilroy
Del Zotto - Redden
Rozsival - Girardi
Semenov

Lundqvist
Valiquette

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Old
09-20-2009, 07:16 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darko View Post
Prospal - Dubinsky - Gaborik
Higgins - Drury - Callahan
Kotalik - Anisimov - Lisin
Avery - Boyle - Brashear
Voros

Staal - Gilroy
Redden - Rozsival
Del zotto - Girardi
Semenov

Lundqvist
Valiquette


Something along these lines. Flame away.
Exactly what I had except for Sangs in for DZ but I can go either way on that one....just thinking they wont rush him but givnig him 9 games is cool with me then their is more time to judge him

And about Lisin / Avery........I want more scoring and Lisin can provide that, do u not want Anisimov with a more talented winger?......Avery is better suited to bring energy on teh 4 th line, be bumped up when needed and play the PK

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09-20-2009, 07:19 PM
  #73
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Quote:
If the Rangers coaching staff is browsing this forum tonight, and they only read one post, i hope it's this one. I hope they read it, carve it in stone, and hang it on the wall of their office.

All the years Gaborik was here, Minnesota was obsessed with finding him a center whose offensive skills were on a par with Gaborik's. They never came close, of course, because there just aren't many such centers out there, but they were so consumed with their quest that they never learned the lesson that was right under their noses - that the best center for Gaborik is simply one who can keep up with him so that Gaborik, who's terrible on breakaways, doesn't have to carry the puck end to end all by himself. By far, the best center Gaborik ever had here in Minnesota was Wes Walz, the checking center. His offensive skills were adequate, but limited. However, he was easily the second fastest skater on the team, and one of the 4 or 5 fastest skaters in the league, and every time he and Gaborik were paired up, the points piled up hip deep. And then as soon as some other slower but more talented center was back from injury or whatever, Walz and Gaborik would be split up again, and Gabby's production would drop.

Risebrough and Lemaire never seemed to learn, and it was one of the biggest mistakes Lemaire ever made here. I hope your coaching staff doesn't fall into the same conventional thinking. Ideally, if you can get him a center with comparable talent and comparable speed, you'll be looking at 100 points a year; but if you can't find that or can't afford it, go with a center with comparable speed and let Gaborik be his own setup man. Just don't put him the position of having to skate the puck into the zone all by himself every time he gets his stick on it.


And a lot of posters in this thread want Prospal our slowest forward outside of the 4th liners to be with Gaborik.

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Old
09-20-2009, 07:24 PM
  #74
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Callahan-Dubi-Gaborik
Prospal-drury-kotalik
Grachev-anisimov-higgins
Lisin-boyle-avery
Ex:brashear, voros

Staal-gilroy
Girardi-mdz
Rosie- "Dredden"
Ex: sangs, McD
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Old
09-20-2009, 07:34 PM
  #75
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Every one, and I mean EVERY one of the posters defending Avery over Lisin are laying out multi paragraph defenses that focus on the "non-scoring" things that he does... and every last one of you is oh so conveniently blatantly ignoring the negative non-scoring things he does. I swear. Oh, he intimidates. Oh, he brings an edge. Not one of you is paying any attention to the game misconducts, the disallowed goals and the five minute majors against. If he was so freaking good and his non-scoring attributes were so important, we wouldn't have been the ONLY team who picked him up - and have gotten Dallas to pick up half his salary in the deal. Jesus, you all love his agitating **** so much that you forgive ANYthing from him. You know his stats this preseason? One goal for... one goal that he singlehandedly got taken off the scoresheet. Yeah, yeah, it's preseason. Okay, let's go to the last meaningful games the team played - he was one of the best players in game seven (although not good enough to produce a win)... and he was such a knucklehead that he also singlehandedly lost a game for the team (and got suspended for another as a result).

Is he a useful player? Yes. Does he bring some nice agitation that can shake up a game when the Rangers are flat? Yes. Do I want him on the team? Yes. Is it a freakin' travesty if he starts on the fourth line, and gets extra playing time in games where the Rangers need a shakeup? Hell no. Especially if putting him on the top nine blocks the spot of a guy who's showing signs of a being a real difference maker.

Honestly, if Lisin was a guy who had come up through the Rangers' minor league system, I wonder if the reactions on the board wouldn't be a little different...

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