HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Toronto Maple Leafs
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The Matt Stajan Debate

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-20-2009, 08:45 PM
  #26
mooseOAK*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 42,437
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColtonSchenn View Post
It's not going to happen unfortunately. Stajan will price himself out of Burke's range and either find himself traded or let go via UFA.

I wouldn't give him more than $2M/season. He'll probably ask for what Grabovski's getting - which is $2.9M/season - and Burke will be forced to trade him. I love Stajan as much as the next guy, but he's not a 2nd liner. He's a great 3rd-line centre than can fill a void when we need him to.

Lets not expect too much out of Stajan this year. I think we'll see more consistent two-way play out of our top-six guys and some players' numbers will suffer; Stajan being one of them.
Stajan starts at what Grabovski is getting.

mooseOAK* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2009, 08:46 PM
  #27
hockeysense*
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,287
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Stajan starts at what Grabovski is getting.
... that's what I said. Unless you just enjoy being the echo in this forum?

hockeysense* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2009, 08:48 PM
  #28
mooseOAK*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 42,437
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColtonSchenn View Post
... that's what I said. Unless you just enjoy being the echo in this forum?
What I am saying Stajan stays and he makes more than Grabovski because he is the better player. Echoing your ramblings is the last thing I'd do.

mooseOAK* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2009, 08:54 PM
  #29
nuck
Axis of Evil
 
nuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Country: North Korea
Posts: 5,013
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColtonSchenn View Post
It's not going to happen unfortunately. Stajan will price himself out of Burke's range and either find himself traded or let go via UFA.

I wouldn't give him more than $2M/season. He'll probably ask for what Grabovski's getting - which is $2.9M/season - and Burke will be forced to trade him. I love Stajan as much as the next guy, but he's not a 2nd liner. He's a great 3rd-line centre than can fill a void when we need him to.

Lets not expect too much out of Stajan this year. I think we'll see more consistent two-way play out of our top-six guys and some players' numbers will suffer; Stajan being one of them.
I think he could be a second line guy and that he could have a bit more growth but Grabo has a better touch and I think will be the more productive guy this season. To me neither of them is a 1st line center and if they keep one, I like Grabo more.
Matt has almost 400 NHL games and has not managed more than 16 goals. That shows me he is getting close to his offensive limit, but without Grabovski in the system I would probably want them to keep him.

He is not a third liner center though so I do not expect him back next year. I don't think he would accept a dimished role and the pay check that goes with it.

But he has the top 6 center spot until someone takes it. If he starts out strong it will be hard to bump him. BB wants the playoffs and while he does have his preferences his first love is winning. If he doesn't have a good start all it takes is a guy with 20 goal potential and he could be eased out so Bozak might not be that far away.


Last edited by nuck: 09-20-2009 at 09:06 PM.
nuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2009, 08:59 PM
  #30
TheMadHatTrick
Registered User
 
TheMadHatTrick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,646
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTL View Post
He's not being resigned past this season and IMO a deadline deal. Bozak will replace him at some point this season if not by the end of training camp. It's either top six for him or nothing and as it stands we have enough up top to move him.
I quite agree. Oh but here's a compelling stat. In a CAREER YEAR Matt Stajan ranked exactly where out of all the centres and forwards in the league?

Malkin 113
Crosby 103
Datsyuk 97
Getzlaf 91
Savard 88
Backstrom 88
Thornton 86
Carter 84
H. Sedin 82
Mike Richards 80
Ribeiro 78
Staal 75
Spezza 73
Zetterberg 73
Krejci 73
White 73
Patrick Marleau 71
Roy 70
Toews 69
Lecavalier 67
Koivu 67
Kopitar 66
Zajac 62
Weiss 61
Frolov 59
Antropov 59
Kessler 59
Pavelski 59
Gomez 58
Arnott 57
Jokinen 57
Hudler 57
Drury 56
Stajan 55

As you can see Stajan was ranked exactly 84th overall in points, 35th overall for centres.

That is not even considering the number of centres who finished just below him (either because of youth, injury, or down years) who are generally considered better players anyway: Daymond Langkow, Bryan Little, Rod Brind'Amour, Jordan Staal, Patrick Berglund, Tim Connoly, Benden Morrow, Nathan Horton, Steve Stamkos.

If you take into account all players of this ilk, Stajan would probably drop down to 44th among centres and 100th overall.

__________________________________________________ _____________________


Now one more thing to consider. Stajan's points totals seem almost entirely dependant upon the production of his linemates. Did Stajan really have a career year last season or did he simply ride the wave of the career years of others? (i.e. Antropov and Ponikarovsky).

It's telling that Stajan's "career year" involved absolutely zero increases in goals scored for himself. The increase was solely based on the number of assists he had. That could simply be the result of him being "around" for more goals by his linemates. The question then becomes, did his amazing passing skills suddenly help Antro and Poni attain career highs in goals scored? Or did he simply benefit from being on a line with two players having career years? Look at Saturday versus the Flyers. Stajan gives Hagman the puck, gets out of the way and gets an assist.

Obviously that is the nature of this nebulous statistic, but I think you can still take something from it. What I learn is that you have to take assist totals with a grain of salt. That is why in most circles goals are valued higher. Now, lets look and see how many of the players considered centres in the NHL scored more goals than Stajan as well?

More than 40 centres scored at least five more goals than Stajan.

So statistically (since the other side keeps using his CAREER YEAR as their main counterpoint) Stajan is probably somewhere in the 35-45 range among all centres for points and goals. Wow!


Last edited by TheMadHatTrick: 09-20-2009 at 09:07 PM.
TheMadHatTrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2009, 09:05 PM
  #31
cupcrazyman
In Shanny We Trust
 
cupcrazyman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Parts Unknown
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,359
vCash: 500
put Stajan on a line with good chemistry and 70 pts is realistic & then the next move is trade Stempniak.

cupcrazyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2009, 09:19 PM
  #32
Schenn
Dirt Road Scholar
 
Schenn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Huron County
Country: Canada
Posts: 27,416
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newfie John View Post
He's a two way second line playmaking center.
I think for this year, its a good fit for Kessel, but just a temporary thing.

Schenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2009, 09:36 PM
  #33
HariKari
Registered User
 
HariKari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 842
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMadHatTrick View Post
I quite agree. Oh but here's a compelling stat. In a CAREER YEAR Matt Stajan ranked exactly where out of all the centres and forwards in the league?

Malkin 113
Crosby 103
Datsyuk 97
Getzlaf 91
Savard 88
Backstrom 88
Thornton 86
Carter 84
H. Sedin 82
Mike Richards 80
Ribeiro 78
Staal 75
Spezza 73
Zetterberg 73
Krejci 73
White 73
Patrick Marleau 71
Roy 70
Toews 69
Lecavalier 67
Koivu 67
Kopitar 66
Zajac 62
Weiss 61
Frolov 59
Antropov 59
Kessler 59
Pavelski 59
Gomez 58
Arnott 57
Jokinen 57
Hudler 57
Drury 56
Stajan 55

As you can see Stajan was ranked exactly 84th overall in points, 35th overall for centres.
Except how much does Matt actually make compared those names barely ahead of him on the list? Guy makes $1.75m a season, low maintenance and bleeds blue and white.

Drury for his 1 extra point made his $7 mil. Olli Jokinen made $5.25. We all know how much Gomez is making. I don't see how you could consider it as a knock against Matt to be behind any of the players on that list.

HariKari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2009, 09:42 PM
  #34
smoke meat pete*
VoiceofReason
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,905
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColtonSchenn View Post
Even if that were true, he doesn't have enough sandpaper in his game to augment his short-comings to be a 2nd-line force.
I really like a 3rd line guy to be defensively responsible, can win faceoffs and is a scoring threat, putting the opposition top line on the defensive, at least a little bit anyway. They are also a line that could play lots of minutes.

smoke meat pete* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2009, 09:54 PM
  #35
Leaf Army
Registered User
 
Leaf Army's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Leaf Nation
Posts: 8,398
vCash: 500
I don't know what it is with Stajan but no matter what he does, no one will ever give him any credit. He's a good player.

He's 25 years old and I read people saying he needs to move on so we can give the "kids" icetime. It's like people think he's over the hill and can't still get better. Only at HF are you washed up at 25 years of age.

I think last year was really the first year he was used properly. Stajan's more of a playmaker than goal scorer but in previous years he usually had as many goals as assists. Something wasn't right.

I think he'll be one our nicest surprises this season. Going forward I think 50 points should be expected of him, 60 points is reasonable and 70 points is possible.

Also everyone keeps saying we'll trade him at the deadline. If we're in the playoffs, like most people feel we will be, there's not much chance we'll be trading Stajan at the deadline.

Leaf Army is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2009, 10:10 PM
  #36
mlugia
That other guy
 
mlugia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: S. Korea
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,065
vCash: 500
35-45 amongst centers makes him a freaking good 2nd liner, assuming of course there are 60 top 6 centers in the league.

mlugia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2009, 10:20 PM
  #37
Nazem Gretzky
Eller 4 Selke
 
Nazem Gretzky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Francais-land
Country: France
Posts: 10,102
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Nazem Gretzky
Matt Stajan is better than most of you give him credit for. He IS gritty. He survived the Quinn and Maurice years being on the 3rd and 4th lines, where he was stuck with plugs. He has offensive potential. Look, the guy had 40 assists. 40. He was by far the best setup man on the Leafs and until someone outplays him, he will stick with the Leafs. I think people don't like him because he's not as flashy as many players, but what he does, he does well. I really don't know what people are expecting out of him....He was a 2nd round pick, is it not pretty good value to have a 2nd rounder getting almost 60 points?? Some will say "well there was not as much talent last year, someone HAD to put up points"- that's an invalid argument. It still takes just as much talent to put up points in the NHL regardless of the talent on your team. Also, Stajan put up those numbers with only what, 17 minutes a game? Give him 20 and he would have hit 60 points, guaranteed. Also what is this BS about him not being skilled enough for the top 6? He IS skilled enough to be in the top 6 of our team, and until you can name 6 players on our team that can produce more, I expect him to stay there.

Nazem Gretzky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2009, 10:22 PM
  #38
Nazem Gretzky
Eller 4 Selke
 
Nazem Gretzky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Francais-land
Country: France
Posts: 10,102
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Nazem Gretzky
To add to that, was Chris Kunitz not in the top 6 in Pitts? And I think we can make the argument that Stajan is as skilled as Kunitz.

Nazem Gretzky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2009, 10:26 PM
  #39
Machinae
Registered User
 
Machinae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Mississauga, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,512
vCash: 500
Let's trade Schenn when he's 25 because he isn't skilled enough.

Stajan > Grabovski

Machinae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2009, 10:27 PM
  #40
blackmarketmob
Registered User
 
blackmarketmob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Waterloo/Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 846
vCash: 500
I'm not sure I read into the stat of him being 35th overall among centres in points. Too many other variables come into play (ice time, linemates etc). Even if that was completely objective though, I wouldn't see that as a knock on him. If there are 30 teams and he finished 35th, that would indicate he was just out of the running for a top line centre spot, and at the upper echelon of a second line centre spot.

blackmarketmob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2009, 10:43 PM
  #41
Slapshot17
Registered User
 
Slapshot17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Prince George
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,040
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMadHatTrick View Post
I quite agree. Oh but here's a compelling stat. In a CAREER YEAR Matt Stajan ranked exactly where out of all the centres and forwards in the league?

Malkin 113
Crosby 103
Datsyuk 97
Getzlaf 91
Savard 88
Backstrom 88
Thornton 86
Carter 84
H. Sedin 82
Mike Richards 80
Ribeiro 78
Staal 75
Spezza 73
Zetterberg 73
Krejci 73
White 73
Patrick Marleau 71
Roy 70
Toews 69
Lecavalier 67
Koivu 67
Kopitar 66
Zajac 62
Weiss 61
Frolov 59
Antropov 59
Kessler 59
Pavelski 59
Gomez 58
Arnott 57
Jokinen 57
Hudler 57
Drury 56
Stajan 55

As you can see Stajan was ranked exactly 84th overall in points, 35th overall for centres.

Now one more thing to consider. Stajan's points totals seem almost entirely dependant upon the production of his linemates. Did Stajan really have a career year last season or did he simply ride the wave of the career years of others? (i.e. Antropov and Ponikarovsky).

It's telling that Stajan's "career year" involved absolutely zero increases in goals scored for himself. The increase was solely based on the number of assists he had. That could simply be the result of him being "around" for more goals by his linemates. The question then becomes, did his amazing passing skills suddenly help Antro and Poni attain career highs in goals scored? Or did he simply benefit from being on a line with two players having career years? Look at Saturday versus the Flyers. Stajan gives Hagman the puck, gets out of the way and gets an assist.

Obviously that is the nature of this nebulous statistic, but I think you can still take something from it. What I learn is that you have to take assist totals with a grain of salt. That is why in most circles goals are valued higher. Now, lets look and see how many of the players considered centres in the NHL scored more goals than Stajan as well?

More than 40 centres scored at least five more goals than Stajan.

So statistically (since the other side keeps using his CAREER YEAR as their main counterpoint) Stajan is probably somewhere in the 35-45 range among all centres for points and goals. Wow!
Let's be honest here, having Poni and Antropov on your wings is no where near the talent some of the players higher on the list had, and when it comes to minutes played, I doubt Stajan had more than many people on the list.

By no means am I calling him the next coming of Marc Savard, but he's not as bad as many people on this board make him out to be. He's the best all around centre we have, and definately a better playmaker than Grabovski (whom likes to carry and shoot the puck). I think Stajan has to be the one that plays with Kessel. Now if we could only add a skilled forward with muscle to that line it would be complete.

Slapshot17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2009, 10:46 PM
  #42
LTL
Registered User
 
LTL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: D.T
Country: Canada
Posts: 28,288
vCash: 500
Nothing is preventing Burke from offering Stajan a long term deal at the moment or any other impending UFA for that matter. If Burke truly felt he was in our long term plans he would have been signed by now.

LTL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2009, 10:48 PM
  #43
Caesium
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 6,028
vCash: 1040
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTL View Post
Nothing is preventing Burke from offering Stajan a long term deal at the moment or any other impending UFA for that matter. If Burke truly felt he was in our long term plans he would have been signed by now.
Actually, there's that thing called the CBA. Stajan can't be offered a new contract until January.

Caesium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2009, 10:50 PM
  #44
Slapshot17
Registered User
 
Slapshot17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Prince George
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,040
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caesium View Post
Actually, there's that thing called the CBA. Stajan can't be offered a new contract until January.

Slapshot17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2009, 10:57 PM
  #45
facey
Registered User
 
facey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,105
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newfie John View Post
He's a two way second line playmaking center.
and if he is paired with an elite sniper (kessel) and if we can find a sutiable big body power forward for the other side, we have a competent first line for 2+ years, until 'the spider' is ready.


people are acting as if our build is over.

however we still need to see what comes from:
Hanson -> is he out big body?
Kenny Ryan -> Burke was big on this kid, he could be the big body as well
hayes -> he sure is big...

do bozak and stalberg translate well into the show?

how about slaney...

i like rosehill, he's a tough mofo.


IMO stajan is our first option for #1 center. and he has earned that opportunity.

facey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2009, 10:58 PM
  #46
LTL
Registered User
 
LTL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: D.T
Country: Canada
Posts: 28,288
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caesium View Post
Actually, there's that thing called the CBA. Stajan can't be offered a new contract until January.
I assumed that was in Aug or Sept. I assumed wrong it seems.

LTL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2009, 10:59 PM
  #47
zeke
#TeamReimer
 
zeke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 28,012
vCash: 500
Stajan, at age 24, clearly and unarguably developed into much more than a 3rd line centre last year.

He's shown he's a 60-point capable centre at age 24 - without great linemates, without top line ice time or PP time.

He's a very good defensive player and an excellent PKer.

He's a great worker, and a great guy and teammate in general.

He's got more hockey sense and vision than any other forward on the team.

Solid, solid two-way 2nd line centre we've developed here.

Give him a top notch winger like Kessel, and watch Matty threaten for 70 points this year.


Leaf fans may have their blinders on when it comes to Matty, but Ron Wilson certainly does not.

zeke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2009, 11:01 PM
  #48
zeke
#TeamReimer
 
zeke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 28,012
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackmarketmob View Post
I'm not sure I read into the stat of him being 35th overall among centres in points. Too many other variables come into play (ice time, linemates etc). Even if that was completely objective though, I wouldn't see that as a knock on him. If there are 30 teams and he finished 35th, that would indicate he was just out of the running for a top line centre spot, and at the upper echelon of a second line centre spot.
He actually finished 30th, as some of the players officially listed as centres were actually wingers - guys like Kessel, Antropov, Hudler, and a couple of others, and he did it in only 76 games.

And he did this with less ice time, less PP time, and lesser linemates than every single of the centres who finished ahead of him in scoring.

zeke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2009, 11:02 PM
  #49
Leafs4Eva
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Guelph Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,112
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KuleHandNik View Post
Matt Stajan is better than most of you give him credit for. He IS gritty. He survived the Quinn and Maurice years being on the 3rd and 4th lines, where he was stuck with plugs. He has offensive potential. Look, the guy had 40 assists. 40. He was by far the best setup man on the Leafs and until someone outplays him, he will stick with the Leafs. I think people don't like him because he's not as flashy as many players, but what he does, he does well. I really don't know what people are expecting out of him....He was a 2nd round pick, is it not pretty good value to have a 2nd rounder getting almost 60 points?? Some will say "well there was not as much talent last year, someone HAD to put up points"- that's an invalid argument. It still takes just as much talent to put up points in the NHL regardless of the talent on your team. Also, Stajan put up those numbers with only what, 17 minutes a game? Give him 20 and he would have hit 60 points, guaranteed. Also what is this BS about him not being skilled enough for the top 6? He IS skilled enough to be in the top 6 of our team, and until you can name 6 players on our team that can produce more, I expect him to stay there.
Here here!!!

Leafs4Eva is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-20-2009, 11:06 PM
  #50
Professor Dangles
Registered User
 
Professor Dangles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,358
vCash: 500
Stajan is going to go ballistic this year and drop 85.

Professor Dangles is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:23 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.