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The Matt Stajan Debate

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Old
09-20-2009, 11:09 PM
  #51
facey
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well said zeke

he was not a kid who practice shinny moves and shootout dekes, he went to practices, played positional hockey, developed his hockey sense, and has the ability to pass off of his entire blade length.


he is not going to score 30 goals.

but he might get 50 assists.

leaf fans, especially here on HF need to give the guy his due.

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Old
09-20-2009, 11:10 PM
  #52
LTL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caesium View Post
Actually, there's that thing called the CBA. Stajan can't be offered a new contract until January.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slapshot17 View Post
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Originally Posted by LTL View Post
I assumed that was in Aug or Sept. I assumed wrong it seems.
Here's the snippet on it:

Quote:
(Page 236/472)
(iv) A Player who is party to a one-year SPC may not enter into an
"extension" of such SPC prior to January 1 of the League Year
covered by such SPC.
It seems your incorrect on this one. I've heard that January date before but never bothered to look it up.

Quote:
Luongo wants chance to fix playoff mistakes
Wednesday, 09.02.2009 / 2:58 PM
Canucks goalie Roberto Luongo still feels he has something to prove. And until he reaches his goal, he has no intention of leaving Vancouver, signing a 12-year contract extension Wednesday.
He was entering the last year of his contract as well:

Birthdate: April 04, 1979 Age: 30

Quote:
Contracts
Start: 2006 End: 2010 Salary: $7,500,000 (breakdown) 2006-2007: $6,000,000
2007-2008: $6,500,000
2008-2009: $7,000,000
2009-2010: $7,500,000
Cap Hit: $6,750,000 (UFA)
Start: 2010 End: 2022 Salary: $1,000,000 (breakdown) 2010-2011: $10,000,000
2011-2012: $6,716,000
2012-2013: $6,714,000
2013-2014: $6,714,000
2014-2015: $6,714,000
2015-2016: $6,714,000
2016-2017: $6,714,000
2017-2018: $6,714,000
2018-2019: $3,382,000
2019-2020: $1,618,000
2020-2021: $1,000,000
2021-2022: $1,000,000
Cap Hit: $5,333,333 (UFA)
????????

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Old
09-20-2009, 11:24 PM
  #53
Jesus Bacon
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I see nothing but upside with keeping Stajan. He talks well with the media, he's a leader, and since Wilson sat him last year I've seen a huge jump in his work ethic and attitude. He's not a tough guy, but we have more than enough of thoes.

I can see him fitting nicely as a setup man for Kessel. Other than Grabo he's really the only playmaking center the Leafs have that wont be in the minors. I think centering Kessel and someone else, maybe Hagman or Poni will only make his numbers go up.

That being said, if I'm Burke, I'd do what he kinda did with Kaberle. Half shop him around to see what you can get for him. If you don't get a deal that rocks your socks (which he likely wont) then keep him and attempt to re-sign him unless he asks for too much.

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Old
09-20-2009, 11:54 PM
  #54
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based on the workout intense summer he's had... he's developed and seems to have matured mentally. I could see hm topping out at 55-65pts, solid two way play with leadership qualities. a poor mans gilmour (could be crazy).

I'm stoked to have him...

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Old
09-20-2009, 11:57 PM
  #55
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wait, I don't get why 35-45th is even bad for a centre. There are two top 6 centre positions on every team, so realistically, he would have to be outside the top 60 to be considered bad. He's actually very well within the top 60 and is a borderline first line center.

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Old
09-21-2009, 12:04 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by LTL View Post
Here's the snippet on it:



It seems your incorrect on this one. I've heard that January date before but never bothered to look it up.

????????
I thought you were able to renegotiate in the summer before your last year of your contract, but not once the season begins (not sure if that is the start of camp, or the start of the season), and then not again until Jan 1st, which was meant to make sure guys didn't hold out looking for an extension, ala Yashin.

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Old
09-21-2009, 12:23 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by LTL View Post
He's not being resigned past this season and IMO a deadline deal. Bozak will replace him at some point this season if not by the end of training camp. It's either top six for him or nothing and as it stands we have enough up top to move him.
agree

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Old
09-21-2009, 12:29 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by triple000 View Post
I see nothing but upside with keeping Stajan. He talks well with the media, he's a leader, and since Wilson sat him last year I've seen a huge jump in his work ethic and attitude. He's not a tough guy, but we have more than enough of thoes.

I can see him fitting nicely as a setup man for Kessel. Other than Grabo he's really the only playmaking center the Leafs have that wont be in the minors. I think centering Kessel and someone else, maybe Hagman or Poni will only make his numbers go up.

That being said, if I'm Burke, I'd do what he kinda did with Kaberle. Half shop him around to see what you can get for him. If you don't get a deal that rocks your socks (which he likely wont) then keep him and attempt to re-sign him unless he asks for too much.
There are many good reasons for jettisoning Stajan. We have numerous players looking to make a move for one of the top two spots - Bozak, Grabovski, Kadri, Mitchell, etc. We speculate that Stajan would be unhappy to be playing on the 3rd line; and rightfully so. He's been producing like a top-six forward.

But he's not a top-six forward. He doesn't have the skills, grit, or strength to mask his average skill-set, average strength, average grit. It's not enough for me, as a fan, and an arm-chair GM, to have an average playing centring my 2nd-line. He's done in Toronto after this year if he can't take less than 2M.

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Old
09-21-2009, 12:47 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by ColtonSchenn View Post
There are many good reasons for jettisoning Stajan. We have numerous players looking to make a move for one of the top two spots - Bozak, Grabovski, Kadri, Mitchell, etc. We speculate that Stajan would be unhappy to be playing on the 3rd line; and rightfully so. He's been producing like a top-six forward.

But he's not a top-six forward. He doesn't have the skills, grit, or strength to mask his average skill-set, average strength, average grit. It's not enough for me, as a fan, and an arm-chair GM, to have an average playing centring my 2nd-line. He's done in Toronto after this year if he can't take less than 2M.
First you say he'e been producing like a top 6 forward, then you go on to say he's not a top 6 forward. Care to explain how that works? Stajan is not the most physical forward, but he takes hits to make plays and may be the Leafs best two way forward right now. Not to mention best face off man.

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Old
09-21-2009, 12:56 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by TML4LIFE View Post
First you say he'e been producing like a top 6 forward, then you go on to say he's not a top 6 forward. Care to explain how that works? Stajan is not the most physical forward, but he takes hits to make plays and may be the Leafs best two way forward right now. Not to mention best face off man.
It's not either/or. It's the fact that there are mitigating factors in play that keeps Stajan on the 2nd line. I'm no longer able to effectively argue that Ponikarovsky isn't a top-six player, because he is. It's obvious that Antropov is a top-six player.

Those two players are one factor in Stajan's ascent to top-six production. Another factor is ice-time in two important situations - power-play time and top-six even strength time. Those two factors, plus Stajan's maturation as a hockey player helped him produced like a top-six forward. I'm not arguing that Stajan is a bad player; I love Stajan has much as the next guy here. He's just not able to connect the average skills that he has with one dominant one. There's nothing that stands out about Stajan. People here rely on statistics to prove people wrong. I prefer the old-fashion way. The old-fashion way of watching a player seems to be the more successful way of being able to tell the difference between a top-six centre and a bottom-6 centre.

For example: Grabovski isn't a first-line centre. But he IS a good 2nd-line centre. He has speed, passing, and stick-handling abilities that are clearly obvious. He also creates his own plays. What does Stajan have?

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Old
09-21-2009, 01:10 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColtonSchenn View Post
There are many good reasons for jettisoning Stajan. We have numerous players looking to make a move for one of the top two spots - Bozak, Grabovski, Kadri, Mitchell, etc. We speculate that Stajan would be unhappy to be playing on the 3rd line; and rightfully so. He's been producing like a top-six forward.

But he's not a top-six forward. He doesn't have the skills, grit, or strength to mask his average skill-set, average strength, average grit. It's not enough for me, as a fan, and an arm-chair GM, to have an average playing centring my 2nd-line. He's done in Toronto after this year if he can't take less than 2M.
I disagree, but I see why you say that.

First off, in my opinion, Stajan has never really been paired with any above average scoring talent. So the numbers he does have given that are pretty damn good. I think when we get Kessel in the line up it'll be hard to fit him with any other center then Stajan. Of the names you named; Grabo is far too selfish (for lack of a better word) with the puck to fit in with a more talented winger then himself, Kadri will be in junior for the next season or two, Mitchell will likely be on the third line or the minors, depending where Wilson fits everyone else, and Bozak has a few hills to climb to make the team himself. Bozak is probably behind Stajan on the center depth chart.

Also Stajan has a pretty good defensive game on top of his playmaking ability. He's also one of the better faceoff people on the team.

I must say that yes, my Kessel/Stajan theory is unproven. Its just an educated guess. So given Stajan hasn't proven anything in that regard, I agree with you that he probably shouldn't make much more than 2-2.5M if he's re-signed.

For center this year I wouldn't be too shocked if Wilson went with something like
1st - Stajan
2nd -Grabo
3rd - Wallin/Mitchell
4th - Mayers/Primeau

with maybe Bozak coming up if one of them doesn't work out or there's an injury.

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Old
09-21-2009, 01:52 AM
  #62
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Wow, Stajan seems to be just coming into his own now and people want to gun him. FWIW, Marc Savard didn't do jack until he was about Stajans age. He's finally getting strong and tough and I really believe he'll benefit from the new-look Leafs this year. I'm not yet convinced he's actually had his break out year yet. I really want to see what he can do with a guy like Kessel as his winger.

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Old
09-21-2009, 04:31 AM
  #63
Homer J. Leafs
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im with Zeke on this one
I think Matty has a great work ethic, he respects the fans and the game and his teammates, he is smart, he is our best faceoffman, he talks to the media even when the team choked, he is a great two-way player, and I dont agree with this whole "trade when the value is the highest" because you need veterans on your team not just young players...and Matty is 25!!!!!!!!

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Old
09-21-2009, 05:10 AM
  #64
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I like Stajan but this team isn't winning anything with him as the teams top centre. So then you say, oh he is a 2nd line centre, but then were does that put Grabovski, because we aren't winning anything with Grabs as the teams top center either. Bozak, Mitchell...

I like Stajan, but in order for me to really accept him he has to be played in the proper role which would be 2nd/3rd line center. this team needs a real #1 center is what I am saying, Stajan or Grabovski isn't it but Stajan is doing a nice top gap job of it at the moment.

I really like Mitchell in the 3rd line center spot, he is ideal for that role. One of Stajan, Grabovski or Bozak for the 2nd line center spot. And for the top spot, well, we don't have that player right now.

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Old
09-21-2009, 05:56 AM
  #65
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Stajan should be traded ASAP. He might be useful to a team that is structured in another way, but to a team that is supposed to be built around two scoring lines and two checking lines he's not a good fit, imho. If he had been good at playing on the wing then it would have been easier to make a case for him..

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Old
09-21-2009, 09:59 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by ColtonSchenn View Post
It's not either/or. It's the fact that there are mitigating factors in play that keeps Stajan on the 2nd line. I'm no longer able to effectively argue that Ponikarovsky isn't a top-six player, because he is. It's obvious that Antropov is a top-six player.

Those two players are one factor in Stajan's ascent to top-six production. Another factor is ice-time in two important situations - power-play time and top-six even strength time. Those two factors, plus Stajan's maturation as a hockey player helped him produced like a top-six forward.
Excuse me for using statistics but Stajan was 110th in the league in terms of ice time for forwards and 150th in PP ice time.

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09-21-2009, 10:06 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Excuse me for using statistics but Stajan was 110th in the league in terms of ice time for forwards and 150th in PP ice time.
Believe his PP time was outside our top 6 as well, which suggests he wasn't on either of our top two units.

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09-21-2009, 10:42 AM
  #68
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Believe his PP time was outside our top 6 as well, which suggests he wasn't on either of our top two units.
Wilson never had a set PP all season, it was just whoever was next up between the Grabovski line and the Stajan line with Stempniak subbed in once in a while and still managed to end up middle of the pack.

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Old
09-21-2009, 10:56 AM
  #69
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I'm not sure I agree. He rotated the 3 units based on who was playing well, but it seemed like he did give more ice-time to the more effective lines that game. He did jumbled up the lines and we didn't have a set PP1 unit we relied on though.

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Old
09-21-2009, 11:01 AM
  #70
Newfie John
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As I said earlier, I like Stajan. He's a very capable 2nd line center with two way ability. With that said, I don't see him being a Leaf beyond this season. He'll be a great plug for this season, and he's been a great Leaf, but I think this is his last year.

Grabovski seems to be the better guy to count on offensively in the top six, and in the top six that's what's most important. Plus, Bozak and Kadri are really knocking on the door. I see Stajan either being traded at the deadline or being let go to free agency, in favour of signing a good centerman next summer.

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Old
09-21-2009, 11:32 AM
  #71
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I don't understand how so many people here are down on Stajan. Dollar for Dollar he may be most valuable guy.

Sign Stajan long term. Stajan 1st line this year with Kessel. Kadri with Kessel next year. Then put Stajan on the second line. Bozak has not proven he is anywhere near Stajan in his capabilities.

For everyon saying Trade Stajan. What are they expecting in return???

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Old
09-21-2009, 11:38 AM
  #72
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Matt Stajan has reached his potential

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Old
09-21-2009, 11:51 AM
  #73
Homer J. Leafs
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Matt Stajan has reached his potential
and?????

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Old
09-21-2009, 11:55 AM
  #74
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Matt Stajan has reached his potential
You based this on his year after year improvements? When he stops improving, then you can say he's reached his potential. He keeps getting better every year.

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Old
09-21-2009, 11:59 AM
  #75
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IMO if you have to very good wingers on a line and can have Stajan re-signed to a decent salary, then I think he's capable of filling that Brendan Morrison in Vancouver type role very well (who was never really a great player but had the perfect situation to excel). Basically I like him as the 6th guy of a top 6 if you've got the right pieces to play on either side of him. He'll never be a great 2nd C on his own, but he's got a complimentary type of game that can make him very useful with the right accompanying pieces.

Going forward though I just don't see him sticking around. I don't think by next offseason Burke will think he's got the guys ahead of Stajan on a depth chart locked up, and he won't like him as a 3rd C because he's not a tougher guy, so I think he's on the way out, but I think if he gets the right situation, here or elsewhere, he can have a pretty good career. You just don't want him headlining the second line on a legit contender.

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