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Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XX: There Will Be Baum

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Old
09-23-2009, 01:28 AM
  #251
Pinkfloyd
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
If Hamilton can survive Buffalo's existence, but Buffalo cannot survive Hamilton's existence, then obviously the franchise should be in Hamilton.
Ahh...if business could only be that simple. However, since it's not simply a competitive business between potentially Hamilton and Buffalo, it doesn't work that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
More accurately, it's about a rabid fan base that lives and breathes the sport that feels it is being denied local franchises at the expense of marginal markets where very few people care.
At the expense of a market that was there long before Hamilton was even thinking about being viable and also at a market that has shown its dominance in this sport in terms of value. So not only would a team take away from a huge power but it would spell the end of a franchise that has been around for close to 40 years.

People don't seem to grasp the concept that the NHL is one big business with 30 sub-businesses that work as partners more than competitors in the business sense. The NHL is not going to help one team at the cost of the other and in this case at the cost of two teams. That doesn't help them any.

The NHL doesn't deny that it would succeed in Hamilton. However, it's not in their best interest as a whole to have a team there right now.

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09-23-2009, 01:29 AM
  #252
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Just an observation/comment.
I will also not be spending a cent on anything NHL this year.
No Leaf tickets, no Sabres tickets, no NHL merchandise, Leafs TV and NHL network cancelled, as will quite a few people I know, all in Southern Ontario.
Normally I would attend several NHL games a year in both Toronto and Buffalo.
I always enjoyed the games in Buffalo and made a weekend of it.
Unfortunately, in the long run, it won't make much of a difference, simply because there aren't enough people that WILL boycott the NHL to show their displeasure about not having a 2nd NHL team in Southern Ontario (and tickets you can actually get on a regular basis). The ACC will still be full every night. I would doubt you'd see one company cancel their Leafs season tickets in protest regarding the handling of the Hamilton/Southern Ontario expansion/relocation saga.
I'm sure my five thousand bucks will just be made up with Leaf/Sabre ticket price increases anyways.

I'm not going to get into the blame game (JB, GB, Moyes, MLSE, Sabres, Rodier, Baum).
The fact remains that the fans of Southern Ontario deserve a 2nd team and at some point the NHL should see that. It increases league revenue, league exposure, attracts new fans by making their product more accessible, and increases franchise values league wide.

I don't think it has to be JB as the owner and I don't think we have to steal another city's team (I feel for the Coyotes fans but can't figure out why they don't put their money where their mouth is and support that team NOW).

The fallout of a ruling in JB's favour is missed/forgotten by alot of us Canadians. Yes we'd have our team but next year an American billionaire could say, hey Eugene, 300 million bucks cash, i'm gonna take your Senators to Seattle, just file these bankruptcy papers and the metal suitcase is yours. Not quite that simple but you get the idea. It could backfire in our face so it's something to think about.

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Old
09-23-2009, 01:37 AM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Ahh...if business could only be that simple. However, since it's not simply a competitive business between potentially Hamilton and Buffalo, it doesn't work that way.
You're right. Which is why, in reality, the NHL is nothing like a franchise business.

Quote:
However, it's not in their best interest as a whole to have a team there right now.
Disagree. I will, however, agree that the current BoG leadership does not believe it is in their personal interests to allow a team anywhere near Toronto.

 
Old
09-23-2009, 01:41 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
And this is the crux of the issue for most people. It's not about hockey. It's about Canada.

Pretty much, for a lot of people.

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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
The NHL doesn't deny that it would succeed in Hamilton. However, it's not in their best interest as a whole to have a team there right now.

In fact, the NHL would be far better off with a second team in Toronto than with a single team in Hamilton.

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09-23-2009, 02:43 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Hammertown View Post
Just an observation/comment.
I will also not be spending a cent on anything NHL this year.
No Leaf tickets, no Sabres tickets, no NHL merchandise, Leafs TV and NHL network cancelled, as will quite a few people I know, all in Southern Ontario.
Normally I would attend several NHL games a year in both Toronto and Buffalo.
I always enjoyed the games in Buffalo and made a weekend of it.
Unfortunately, in the long run, it won't make much of a difference, simply because there aren't enough people that WILL boycott the NHL to show their displeasure about not having a 2nd NHL team in Southern Ontario (and tickets you can actually get on a regular basis). The ACC will still be full every night. I would doubt you'd see one company cancel their Leafs season tickets in protest regarding the handling of the Hamilton/Southern Ontario expansion/relocation saga.
I'm sure my five thousand bucks will just be made up with Leaf/Sabre ticket price increases anyways.

I'm not going to get into the blame game (JB, GB, Moyes, MLSE, Sabres, Rodier, Baum).
The fact remains that the fans of Southern Ontario deserve a 2nd team and at some point the NHL should see that. It increases league revenue, league exposure, attracts new fans by making their product more accessible, and increases franchise values league wide.

I don't think it has to be JB as the owner and I don't think we have to steal another city's team (I feel for the Coyotes fans but can't figure out why they don't put their money where their mouth is and support that team NOW).

The fallout of a ruling in JB's favour is missed/forgotten by alot of us Canadians. Yes we'd have our team but next year an American billionaire could say, hey Eugene, 300 million bucks cash, i'm gonna take your Senators to Seattle, just file these bankruptcy papers and the metal suitcase is yours. Not quite that simple but you get the idea. It could backfire in our face so it's something to think about.
Sounds like this process has worn you down as it has most of us Coyotes fans. You make some great points and feel free to take what I say as coming from a biased Coyotes fan: as much as I do not want to lose my team this way, neither do I want anyone else to ever have to go through this.

It's bad enough when a team leaves because of local arena or ownership issues, but it's quite another when someone can come along and, as you say, throw a suitcase on the table and entice an owner to walk away from the obligations that he or she made to the community and fans, simply by using creative financing to make things appear worse than they truly here.

Debating the viability of Phoenix is irrelevant. The issue is the precedent this sets, and the doors it opens for eager lawyers and accountants who will start looking at strategies to help their clients capitalize on this new business opportunity.

That's what this is all about, when you get down to it, and why the league is fighting it so hard against it. I'm a Coyotes fan, but not naive enough to think the league is truly fighting this first and foremost because it believes in the Phoenix market. What it believes in is the need to control who owns teams and where they play. Just as Balsillie seeks to scoop up the Coyotes as inexpensively as possible, the NHL wants to protect its right to capitalize on unserved markets.

If Balsillie succeeds, the only winners are the few owners who will capitalize by selling their teams to the highest bidder, without league approval, who will then move to what they believe are greener pastures.

If the owners as individuals gain control of who plays where, the NHL and all professional sports are doomed.

I want this to end. I want the NHL to find a local owner and the team to stay in Phoenix. If it can't move the team to a market where it believes it has a better chance. Hell, I may even follow it (how does an American go about moving to Canada and qualifying for health benefits? Is it simply a matter of paying income taxes? ).

We should have spent these last 4+ months talking smack about our teams, our off-season moves, and why the 2009-10 season will be different for every team not called the Penguins. Instead, we've been name-calling, questioning each other's devotion to this game, and driving a wedge between all of us.

It's ****ing wrong! And ****ing owners and lawyers (other than WC and GSC, of course) ruin ****ing everything.

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09-23-2009, 05:46 AM
  #256
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new consriracy theory- fix is in already between Reinsdorf, NHL, Glendale

how does COG spokesman know new owner will have "better experience."


http://www.azcentral.com/sports/coyo...moyes0923.html

Quote:
City spokesman Gary Husk reiterated confidence that a local owner will make the team successful.

"Other owners can be better at doing their job," he said. "They have better experience."

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09-23-2009, 06:13 AM
  #257
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Originally Posted by billy blaze View Post
new consriracy theory- fix is in already between Reinsdorf, NHL, Glendale

how does COG spokesman know new owner will have "better experience."


http://www.azcentral.com/sports/coyo...moyes0923.html
How is that a conspiracy theory? It should be common knowledge among anyone that has been following this situation.

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09-23-2009, 06:28 AM
  #258
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What the fans should want is an owner that is going to stabilize or expand the game/entertainment option. Are JB's actions such that he destabilizes the league and risks that entertainment option? Would he continue legal actions, after becoming an owner, without regard to the consequences for the league as a whole? Those answers are not black and white and are the subject of much debate, especially here.
Yes, I'm sure JB would make his # 1 priority destroying the league after he invests well over $300 million to get into it.

You have to look at the NHL's preferred option, Reinsdorf, who has in the past sued the NBA and got Major Leage Baseball into some serious trouble (to the tune of $250 million) for collusion on player contracts. The league and all the owners are dying to welcome Reinsdorf with open arms, yet shoot down Balsillie and his "character issues". Do you really, really, seriously think that anyone is legitimately worried about Jim destroying the league once he gets in, not adhering to the salary cap, playing 94 games a year and using a yellow puck?

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09-23-2009, 06:57 AM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Zad View Post
Here is an article on lakingsnews.com some of you may want to read on the subject. It's an opinion piece by a guest writer. lakingsnews.com is a new Kings blog / website.

The link is here. http://www.lakingsnews.com/2009/09/f...an-part-i.html



I am sure some of you may disagree with it, but I hope it provides a good discussion.
Better hockey , increased revenues , attendance and viewer-ship aside. The lockout was a dismal failure.

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Old
09-23-2009, 08:08 AM
  #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billy blaze View Post
new consriracy theory- fix is in already between Reinsdorf, NHL, Glendale

how does COG spokesman know new owner will have "better experience."


http://www.azcentral.com/sports/coyo...moyes0923.html
You mean the City knows who they will be dealing with and is comfortable they can get a deal done?

Where have I heard that before?

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09-23-2009, 08:27 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by RR View Post
It's $192.5M for the team. The $50M to COG is specifically for damages it will incur from the team leaving.

If JB really wants to make this hard on the Judge, offer ~$150M to the COG. Argue that by doing that he truly is watching out for the creditors first, and as an owner of an NHL team he does not want to cause long-term harm to a public entity that has partnered with his league.

Argue that gesture will do more for the NHL's future business than any relocation fee could. Argue that instead of the league having to lose money by funding the team in Glendale with no guarantee of finding a local owner, it can open in a market even it believes will be very successful.

The creditors are taken care of; the COG will now have time to find a truly outstanding anchor tenant with money to pay off its debt; and Balsillie will have put the interests of the league in front of his by his willingness to be a good partner.

He can even argue that his payment to the COG could provide it enough time to re-visit bringing the NHL back to Phoenix. Again, for the good of the league he so clearly wants to be a part of.

All we've heard about is his deep pockets and devotion to the game and Hamilton. He chose to fight the NHL in court and the only thing standing between him and owning a team is a Judge whose job it is to get the creditors the best return he possibly can. So open the checkbook and dare the Judge to reject you, Jim.
Actually RR, I've wondered the same thing. If Balsillie loses in Phoenix, there is a good chance the League will have legal backing that effectively keeps Balsillie from owning a team for life, or at least the foreseeable future. If he really has an unlimited budget for acquisition, why not go to the City of Glendale and negotiate a one time payment with them? I have to imagine something in the range of $175-$200 million gets it done. If he had Glendale supporting him, would it change the game? I don't know, there is that load of pesky legal precedent that supports the League's position. I think the League has referenced something like six applicable legal decisions supporting their case, and as Balsillie's attorney Kessler admitted in open court, none to support PSE's position.

I think if Balsillie ever wants to own an NHL franchise, he needs to pull the goalie right now, have his defensemen pinch and write cheques so large he can remove all objections. I don't believe he can win this based on US common law. His best and likely only chance lies with his desire and his bank account.

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Old
09-23-2009, 08:49 AM
  #262
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I will gladly defer - my understanding is from Google, and the historical sale of baseball franchises.


Under the 2004 revisions above - it looks like it is now 15 years.
Perhaps we're both right. You're correct about the change in the law in 2004 regarding 15 year amortization, but that is only in regards to the sale of a franchise. Rather than being bifurcated as they were before, the IRS seems to have solved a headache for them by ruling the contracts as having to be amortized over 15 years, like the media rights and just about everything else.


Quote:
What I was trying to say is that only contracts acquired as part of the purchase (with a portion of the purchase price allocated to those ccontracts) can be depreciated.
The code states that the basis in existing contracts at the time of purchase must be amortized over 15 years. But...


Quote:
New player contracts signed after purchasing the team cannot be similarly depreciated.
This is the part that I don't think is true, though as I stated before I am not an expert here. The superceding of 1056 was in regards to franchise acquisitions and sales. I'm not sure if that changed the way one is to account for player contracts in general. Trust me, if owners didn't have to amortize player contracts, they wouldn't. It is always better, from a tax perspective, to offset as much of your taxable income as you can, currently. You always want to defer (legally, of course) paying taxes so that you can use your money more wisely. So if you can take a current year hit against your taxable income of $10 million for a signing bonus on a 4 year contract, you would do it in a heartbeat. But I still think the government expects you to amortize that as any intangible asset (assuming it is post-sale and not entangled with the acquisition of the franchise).

A general rule of thumb is that the shorter the lifespan of the depreciation/amortization, the better it is for businesses. That is why there were (and are still!) so many "bonus depreciation" elements to stimulus packages. It's also why before the owners tried to have the player contracts (and their shorter amortization period) separate from other elements of a franchise purchase. The 15 year amortization period was a win for the IRS.



Quote:
Moyes was already a part owner in 2006 - and he and Ellman had been benefiting from the depreciation since 2001 when they bought the franchise from Burke.
As I stated above, it probably depends on the context of what you mean by "benefiting".


Quote:
I was trying to state that only the assets he purchased from Ellman in 2006 (including player contracts) could be depreciated following the purchase. Any depreciation of his original 2001 ownership assets would be unchanged.
I am not 100% on this. It sounds right, but there are some very complex issues there. If I have time, I will try to investigate it further.


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09-23-2009, 09:05 AM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Zad View Post
Here is an article on lakingsnews.com some of you may want to read on the subject. It's an opinion piece by a guest writer. lakingsnews.com is a new Kings blog / website.

The link is here. http://www.lakingsnews.com/2009/09/f...an-part-i.html



I am sure some of you may disagree with it, but I hope it provides a good discussion.
Sorry, but it brings nothing to the table that has not been discussed here a thousand times (and more coherently than that article). The comments section below the article accurately summarizes the merits of that tripe.

I have my doubts as to whether the article writer "Howard Roarke" (a sure sign that the writer is a complete lunatic, IMO) is a businessman, as he is professed to be in the footnote at the end.

You would not be the writer yourself by any chance, would you?

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09-23-2009, 09:29 AM
  #264
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Unfortunately, in the long run, it won't make much of a difference, simply because there aren't enough people that WILL boycott the NHL to show their displeasure about not having a 2nd NHL team in Southern Ontario (and tickets you can actually get on a regular basis). The ACC will still be full every night. I would doubt you'd see one company cancel their Leafs season tickets in protest regarding the handling of the Hamilton/Southern Ontario expansion/relocation saga.
Hammer - I do suggest you keep an ear/eye open for when (rather than if) Bettman continues his time on Sirius/XM NHL Home Ice "NHL Hour". I would recommend calling into the show (4pm ET Thursday afternoons was the schedule last season) and laying out your concerns/complaints and see how Bettman responds. You never know, Bettman could have a surprise announcement of expansion, but he can take your (and other fans) concerns to the BOG.

(I'm guessing the earliest it'll be on is 10/1, could start 10/8.)

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09-23-2009, 09:31 AM
  #265
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You know this how? Heck, didn't the league tell Melnyck to keep quiet too?

Yes, yes, but the easiest way to get rid of any anti trust fodder is to just say, "No veto."
Tom Ansemi so stated in his interview that the league requested that they do the talking, and MLSE agreed with that strategy.

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09-23-2009, 09:32 AM
  #266
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Just an observation/comment.
I will also not be spending a cent on anything NHL this year.
No Leaf tickets, no Sabres tickets, no NHL merchandise, Leafs TV and NHL network cancelled, as will quite a few people I know, all in Southern Ontario.
Normally I would attend several NHL games a year in both Toronto and Buffalo.
I always enjoyed the games in Buffalo and made a weekend of it.
Unfortunately, in the long run, it won't make much of a difference, simply because there aren't enough people that WILL boycott the NHL to show their displeasure about not having a 2nd NHL team in Southern Ontario (and tickets you can actually get on a regular basis). The ACC will still be full every night. I would doubt you'd see one company cancel their Leafs season tickets in protest regarding the handling of the Hamilton/Southern Ontario expansion/relocation saga.
I'm sure my five thousand bucks will just be made up with Leaf/Sabre ticket price increases anyways.

I'm not going to get into the blame game (JB, GB, Moyes, MLSE, Sabres, Rodier, Baum).
The fact remains that the fans of Southern Ontario deserve a 2nd team and at some point the NHL should see that. It increases league revenue, league exposure, attracts new fans by making their product more accessible, and increases franchise values league wide.

I don't think it has to be JB as the owner and I don't think we have to steal another city's team (I feel for the Coyotes fans but can't figure out why they don't put their money where their mouth is and support that team NOW).

The fallout of a ruling in JB's favour is missed/forgotten by alot of us Canadians. Yes we'd have our team but next year an American billionaire could say, hey Eugene, 300 million bucks cash, i'm gonna take your Senators to Seattle, just file these bankruptcy papers and the metal suitcase is yours. Not quite that simple but you get the idea. It could backfire in our face so it's something to think about.

Well according to the PHX yotes im a supporting fan, yet i never supported their team. I purchased season tickets from them every year but it wasnt to support the "home" team, Our trailer park in Mesa is comprised of transplants from all over NA. We bought the season tickets so when their favorite team came to town they could go watch. The canadian portion of our Park decided that supporting a flailing franchise was not in our best interest (This was especially true for the people from Ont) so we chose not to renew this year, in the hopes that our ticket sales would not keep the team in Phx any longer

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09-23-2009, 09:40 AM
  #267
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Originally Posted by NotBad View Post
Well according to the PHX yotes im a supporting fan, yet i never supported their team. I purchased season tickets from them every year but it wasnt to support the "home" team, Our trailer park in Mesa is comprised of transplants from all over NA. We bought the season tickets so when their favorite team came to town they could go watch. The canadian portion of our Park decided that supporting a flailing franchise was not in our best interest (This was especially true for the people from Ont) so we chose not to renew this year, in the hopes that our ticket sales would not keep the team in Phx any longer
So you all cut your noses to spite your faces?


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09-23-2009, 09:42 AM
  #268
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Originally Posted by billy blaze View Post
new consriracy theory- fix is in already between Reinsdorf, NHL, Glendale

how does COG spokesman know new owner will have "better experience."


http://www.azcentral.com/sports/coyo...moyes0923.html
You might want to read about twenty of my most recent posts for further enlightenment on this "conspiracy".

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09-23-2009, 09:43 AM
  #269
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Originally Posted by NotBad View Post
Well according to the PHX yotes im a supporting fan, yet i never supported their team. I purchased season tickets from them every year but it wasnt to support the "home" team, Our trailer park in Mesa is comprised of transplants from all over NA. We bought the season tickets so when their favorite team came to town they could go watch. The canadian portion of our Park decided that supporting a flailing franchise was not in our best interest (This was especially true for the people from Ont) so we chose not to renew this year, in the hopes that our ticket sales would not keep the team in Phx any longer
I don't understand that attitude.
I'd love to see a team in Hamilton, QC and Winnipeg.
I don't have a problem with JB.
If I lived or wintered in Phoenix and had season tickets, why would I give them up?
I enjoy hockey and yes, the Yotes haven't been that good but to deny yourself the pleasure of going to a game because Gary's an ******* makes no sense.
It's NOT the Phoenix Coyotes fault that Hamilton doesn't have a team.

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09-23-2009, 09:47 AM
  #270
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http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/stor...n.html?ref=rss
CBC previews today's noon ET hearing


http://www.azcentral.com/sports/coyo...moyes0923.html
Moyes pleads to COG city council to back Balsillie bid (as his comments were not on the agenda, the council could not respond to him).


http://phoenix.bizjournals.com/phoen...1/daily36.html
No schedule on Gretzky's return


From Twitter:
brahmresnik: Coyotes BK: Not sensing any optimism on JB side about today's hearing. Not much to mediate if other side is saying, "Not now, not ever."

And

kash2112: Cog council woman said they would not comment until judge rules... and quickly changed the subject

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...58&ft=1&f=1055
NPR editorial. A look at the history of expansion (including early struggles of LA Kings) and the debacle of Phoenix bankruptcy.

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09-23-2009, 09:58 AM
  #271
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I don't understand that attitude.
I'd love to see a team in Hamilton, QC and Winnipeg.
I don't have a problem with JB.
If I lived or wintered in Phoenix and had season tickets, why would I give them up?
I enjoy hockey and yes, the Yotes haven't been that good but to deny yourself the pleasure of going to a game because Gary's an ******* makes no sense.
It's NOT the Phoenix Coyotes fault that Hamilton doesn't have a team.
It makes alot of sense when the NHL forced 13000 season tickets down our throats to save the oilers. Where is this massive ticket drive to show support for phx?

I just invested in slingbox and center ice instead. Im not going to support a franchise wich was stolen from another city and the NHL did not put up this fight to save them. Especially when the franchise may end up staying because I supported them with my tickets.

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09-23-2009, 10:06 AM
  #272
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It makes alot of sense when the NHL forced 13000 season tickets down our throats to save the oilers. Where is this massive ticket drive to show support for phx?

I just invested in slingbox and center ice instead. Im not going to support a franchise wich was stolen from another city and the NHL did not put up this fight to save them. Especially when the franchise may end up staying because I supported them with my tickets.
I understand the bitterness and frustration but I disagree with your method.

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09-23-2009, 10:16 AM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Fox X Mulder View Post
I understand the bitterness and frustration but I disagree with your method.
What method? Im an oilers fan i pay 25k for season tickets up here. I was only paying 4k for season tickets down in phx for the luxury of a few games. But when they start throwing me into the pot as a PHX supporter thats where i pull my support. Its a nice thing to have being so close to the arena (cause when im back in edmonton i drive almost 1.5hours in ****** ass weather to goto games) so instead of being lumped in with a PHX supporter i choose not to be considered one. Besides im supporting the oilers so technically with phx getting the nice hand outs supplied from the northern teams arent I still being a supporter of phx in a round about way?

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09-23-2009, 10:25 AM
  #274
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Originally Posted by NotBad View Post
What method? Im an oilers fan i pay 25k for season tickets up here. I was only paying 4k for season tickets down in phx for the luxury of a few games. But when they start throwing me into the pot as a PHX supporter thats where i pull my support. Its a nice thing to have being so close to the arena (cause when im back in edmonton i drive almost 1.5hours in ****** ass weather to goto games) so instead of being lumped in with a PHX supporter i choose not to be considered one. Besides im supporting the oilers so technically with phx getting the nice hand outs supplied from the northern teams arent I still being a supporter of phx in a round about way?

Wait a minute. You are paying $25,000 for season tickets? How many tickets do you buy? Where in the arena?

I

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09-23-2009, 10:29 AM
  #275
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Originally Posted by leek View Post
Wait a minute. You are paying $25,000 for season tickets? How many tickets do you buy? Where in the arena?

I
4 tickets section 134 $6200 per seat

Just to add

My tickets that were in the PHX arena were 2400 per seat in section 109


Last edited by NotBad*: 09-23-2009 at 10:41 AM.
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