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2009/10 - Lines Discussion - (ES/PP/PK) - Part II

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Old
11-08-2009, 03:53 PM
  #401
Garbage Goal
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
So, you're suggesting that saying that "[you] don't want to see JVR or Giroux being waisted on one of the lower lines..." is advocating for a two scoring line setup, and "that one forward will literally be wasted on the third line..." is suggesting you like the idea of doing this?

If that's advocating for 2 scoring lines, it's the most obtuse statement in favor of it you could possibly make. Essentially, you're saying you'd be fully against 2 scoring lines if it's one of JVR and Giroux on the third line (it would not be Giroux, so don't worry about it), and Gagne (the likely candidate other than JVR) would be wasted if we did that.

That's before addressing that if an individual uses his talent to its fullest potential it isn't wasted on the third line...hell, hopefully he'd make that an even better line and help us win games.
So...stating the fact that a player's offensive talent would be wasted with grinders/role players on the 3rd line is the same as saying that I don't agree with a two scoring line, two checking line setup? I dont' see how that makes sense at all.

I stated the fact that a player's offensive talent would be wasted with 3rd line energy players and/or grinders who have little offensive talent.

I stated an obvious fact, that's it. I have no idea how you got "I think we should go with 3 scoring lines" from "one player's talent will be wasted on the third line once the lineup is healthy". That's two completely different statements.

I said that I don't want Giroux or JVR wasted on the third line because they shouldn't be. Their development is very important right now and they have been some of the best offensive players on the team.

Just because I said I don't want Giroux or JVR on the third line doesn't mean that I think we should go with three scoring lines. If anyone deserves to be demoted to that line it's probably one of Gagne, Briere, or Hartnell.

I have no idea how you think that I was arguing in favor of or against a two scoring line setup. I have no idea why everything has to turn into a debate with you. I made an obvious, true statement about the situation that we'll be in once our lineup is completely healthy and we stick with two scoring lines. You had to make a massive assumption to think that I was arguing against such a setup.

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11-08-2009, 03:56 PM
  #402
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he's taking some pretty terrible pens so far. Theres not a chance they sit powe at the moment. He's levelling people, scoring timely goals and creating a great deal of space for other players

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11-08-2009, 03:59 PM
  #403
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I don't see why anybody would want to sit Powe, he's done exactly what you would expect from the guy (IMO).

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11-08-2009, 04:05 PM
  #404
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No one wants to sit Powe. It's just that management has a very tough decision to make once the lineup is healthy. It's the same problem that will cause us to put a top 6 player on the 3rd line. We have too many capable forwards. A nice problem to have, but still a problem.

Laliberte will likely be sent down. They'll probably end up doing the same thing that they did in the beginning of the year and rotate Powe and Asham in/out together. I don't see how it could work out any other way, assuming no further injuries.

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11-08-2009, 04:21 PM
  #405
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Asham, Powe, Carcillo are all in before Laliberte.

Powe might stay in over the other 2 since he is used on the PK, but all 3 have been great and all should be in the lineup untill Gagne gets back.

Hartnell-Richards-Giroux
JVR-Carter-Briere
Carcillo-Betts-Lapperiere
Powe-Pyorala-Asham


Last edited by HoverCarle*: 11-08-2009 at 04:27 PM.
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Old
11-08-2009, 04:49 PM
  #406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
...You had to make a massive assumption to think that I was arguing against such a setup.
So, you would be in favor of:

Gagne-Richards-Giroux
Hartnell-Carter-Briere
JVR-Pyorala-Laperriere
Carcillo-Betts-Powe/Asham

Over:

Gagne-Richards-?
Hartnell-Carter-Briere
JVR-Giroux-?
Carcillo-Betts-?

If not, then it really isn't a massive leap to read your original post as arguing against 2 scoring lines. Ignoring the use of "waste" to describe the 7th forward (not a supportive word choice, btw), you could potentially read your post as: "I support 2 scoring lines as long as it isn't messing with individual players that I perceive as getting the shaft."

Which is why I responded with criticism of the use of "waste" to describe that scenario, and catering to individual players.


Last edited by Jester: 11-08-2009 at 04:54 PM.
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Old
11-08-2009, 05:36 PM
  #407
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I said you play Laliberte if he continues to put up points. You play the hot player. 3 points in 4 games so far, and by the time Gagne is back, say 40 games from now, if he was like 18 points, or something like that, you keep him.

I like Powe as much as the next guy, and defended him against Kaktus, but damn you guys are really killing me with him. If Laliberte has more points then Powe, then yes, you keep him up.

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Old
11-08-2009, 05:54 PM
  #408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
So, you would be in favor of:

Gagne-Richards-Giroux
Hartnell-Carter-Briere
JVR-Pyorala-Laperriere
Carcillo-Betts-Powe/Asham

Over:

Gagne-Richards-?
Hartnell-Carter-Briere
JVR-Giroux-?
Carcillo-Betts-?

If not, then it really isn't a massive leap to read your original post as arguing against 2 scoring lines. Ignoring the use of "waste" to describe the 7th forward (not a supportive word choice, btw), you could potentially read your post as: "I support 2 scoring lines as long as it isn't messing with individual players that I perceive as getting the shaft."

Which is why I responded with criticism of the use of "waste" to describe that scenario, and catering to individual players.
I would like the former more, but I don't like either much.

So you're just arguing semantics now? Sorry I didn't use the word choice that you wanted. Is that what you want to hear?

Next time I'll be sure to put the words "of offensive talent" after waste just to make it more clear.

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11-08-2009, 06:12 PM
  #409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I said you play Laliberte if he continues to put up points. You play the hot player. 3 points in 4 games so far, and by the time Gagne is back, say 40 games from now, if he was like 18 points, or something like that, you keep him.

I like Powe as much as the next guy, and defended him against Kaktus, but damn you guys are really killing me with him. If Laliberte has more points then Powe, then yes, you keep him up.
Because we all know, that the Flyers need that Laliberte-guy to score goals even if we have Hartnell, Richards, Gagne, Briere, Giroux, JVR and Carter in the line-up.


When or better if all those guys are healthy, we need some guys like Powe, Asham and Carcillo to run over some people.
Even when Briere is back i would send Laliberte down and keep the bottom-six the way they are atm, they were great in the last few games.
Points don't tell the whole story, especially if you look at bottom-six guys.

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Old
11-08-2009, 06:22 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I like Powe as much as the next guy, and defended him against Kaktus, but damn you guys are really killing me with him. If Laliberte has more points then Powe, then yes, you keep him up.
You did? You deserve better!!!

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11-08-2009, 06:27 PM
  #411
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What was the line that was doing really well Lappy-Betts-Asham? They should keep those guys together.

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11-08-2009, 07:05 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by ilovetheflyers8 View Post
What was the line that was doing really well Lappy-Betts-Asham? They should keep those guys together.
I believe it's Carcillo-Betts-Lappy and, yes, they should be kept together.

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11-08-2009, 07:52 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
I would like the former more, but I don't like either much.

So you're just arguing semantics now? Sorry I didn't use the word choice that you wanted. Is that what you want to hear?

Next time I'll be sure to put the words "of offensive talent" after waste just to make it more clear.
Was Martin Havlat wasted on a very good Chicago team last year? Moreover, this isn't a semantics argument, as we're not debating the meaning of what you were saying, just the reality of it. A good player on the third line is good for our third line. That player is in the NHL and contributing to a team winning games, that's a good thing.

If they cannot create some offense on the third line, then they're probably not all that good offensively anyway.

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11-08-2009, 07:53 PM
  #414
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When Danny returns he takes Laliberte's spot. The only way Laliberte stays up is in Asham's spot IMO, because Powe and Pyorala kill penalties and I certainly don't expect Stevens to split up Betts Lappy and Carcillo. When Gagne comes back it gets interesting but thats not for 2 months.

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11-08-2009, 07:54 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I said you play Laliberte if he continues to put up points. You play the hot player. 3 points in 4 games so far, and by the time Gagne is back, say 40 games from now, if he was like 18 points, or something like that, you keep him.

I like Powe as much as the next guy, and defended him against Kaktus, but damn you guys are really killing me with him. If Laliberte has more points then Powe, then yes, you keep him up.
Eh, Powe contributions come from his versatility, particularly his ability to kill penalties... not really all that worried about Powe's point totals.

Additionally, you need to pay attention to waiver rules, because whenever Gagne comes back you have to send someone down. No idea when Powe crosses the threshold on that front.

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11-08-2009, 08:14 PM
  #416
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Laliberte played shotgun with 2 skilled players and got 2 goals. Big woop.

He also took some horrible penalties, and isn't particularly good at anything. He's fine until Briere gets back but Laliberte won't be a bottom 6 player on this team. When Briere gets back, it will be Powe and not Laliberte on the roster.


and Jester re Waivers:
By capgeek waiver calculator, Powe can play 60 more games regular and playoffs until he has to pass through waivers


Last edited by HoverCarle*: 11-08-2009 at 08:20 PM.
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Old
11-08-2009, 09:02 PM
  #417
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Powe doesn't need to be putting up points to validate his spot on this team. Good for Laliberte for finishing in the handful of NHL games he has played. Many rookies would not be able to score due to jitters, hesitation, or just a lack of skill. With that being said, does he get the next callup over Nodl, or do we give the 2nd round pick another shot to finish? I would hope that Nodl would be able to finish when on a line with Carter and JVR...

Powe knows his role and his points are just gravy to everything else he does.

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11-08-2009, 09:10 PM
  #418
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Eh, Powe contributions come from his versatility, particularly his ability to kill penalties... not really all that worried about Powe's point totals.

Additionally, you need to pay attention to waiver rules, because whenever Gagne comes back you have to send someone down. No idea when Powe crosses the threshold on that front.
Yes, that 1 minute per game that he spends on PK is very important.

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11-08-2009, 11:10 PM
  #419
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Powe is the flyers utility guy, Laliberte however, does not have the versatility Powe does. You could stick Powe in any of the bottow two lines and it wouldnt hurt anything. Laliberte would fall off the map, IMO, without Carter, Giroux, etc.

Powe > Laliwhatever...

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11-09-2009, 04:16 AM
  #420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Was Martin Havlat wasted on a very good Chicago team last year? Moreover, this isn't a semantics argument, as we're not debating the meaning of what you were saying, just the reality of it. A good player on the third line is good for our third line. That player is in the NHL and contributing to a team winning games, that's a good thing.

If they cannot create some offense on the third line, then they're probably not all that good offensively anyway.
That post is so full of BS, it's not even funny.

Havlat played on the second line of the Blackhawks last season with some pretty good offensive players, that line was there to score, not to play defense (what would be the job of line #3).

You gotta maximize your players strenght and minimize their weakness by putting them on spots were they can succeed.
Putting Gagne with two grinders who barely can break the 30points blateau won't help him one bit.

Gagne is a sniper, he won't turn two of our grinders into 50point players, he will occasionally score one of a cycle or on a breakaway, but he won't produce as he can.

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11-09-2009, 07:57 AM
  #421
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Originally Posted by 97FlyersKing18 View Post
Powe doesn't need to be putting up points to validate his spot on this team. Good for Laliberte for finishing in the handful of NHL games he has played. Many rookies would not be able to score due to jitters, hesitation, or just a lack of skill. With that being said, does he get the next callup over Nodl, or do we give the 2nd round pick another shot to finish? I would hope that Nodl would be able to finish when on a line with Carter and JVR...
Powe knows his role and his points are just gravy to everything else he does.
I think last season showed Nodl's ability to finish in the NHL. At this point Laliberte > Nodl for me and it isn't even close.

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11-09-2009, 08:33 AM
  #422
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That post is so full of BS, it's not even funny.

Havlat played on the second line of the Blackhawks last season with some pretty good offensive players, that line was there to score, not to play defense (what would be the job of line #3).

You gotta maximize your players strenght and minimize their weakness by putting them on spots were they can succeed.
Putting Gagne with two grinders who barely can break the 30points blateau won't help him one bit.

Gagne is a sniper, he won't turn two of our grinders into 50point players, he will occasionally score one of a cycle or on a breakaway, but he won't produce as he can.
I agree with this. Even if it was Giroux or JVR, who are more playmakers than scorers, on a line with grinders it would not be good for them. They would probably have more success than someone like Gagne who relies on his center to set him up in the slot, but they still would not produce the way they are capable of.

To say "If they cannot create some offense on the third line, then they're probably not all that good offensively anyway." is misleading. Because yes they will be able to create some offense, but how many times would Giroux or JVR set up someone in a perfect spot and have them flub it. We saw it last year, Giroux was able to get more out of third line players than what they usually gave, but they were still third line players, they still blew far more chances then they cashed in on. And yes I know most everyone blows more chances then they actually score on, but who do you think is going to screw up more gift passes, Briere/Gagne or Powe/Asham?

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11-09-2009, 09:10 AM
  #423
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I don't think Powe is going anywhere. Too many dimensions to his game. Too good of a fit on either a 3rd line or 4th line. Too utilitarian. Laliberte has done a good job in a callup role and it's great to see the organizational depth, but at this point he has not displaced Powe. There are others who will be press boxed before Powe.


I think Laliberte's play has moved him ahead of guys like Nodl etc on the depth chart but he had done that already at the end of training camp. We need to remember that he is just one year younger than Carter and Richards. It's not like he's 18 and needs to come a long way. We shouldn't be surprised when he pots some playing with Carter and JVR. He was drafted to be a scorer. He scored more goals last year than Maroon and in 10 less games. His game is developed. He scored 50 in last year in the Q. I love, love, love that we have some guys who can step in and play when called upon, that for sure, but he hasn't at least in my eyes displaced a guy like Powe just yet.

As far as the lines go I see no need to break up Carcillo Lappy and Betts. That would just be silly.

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11-09-2009, 09:28 AM
  #424
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Originally Posted by jd2210 View Post
I don't think Powe is going anywhere. Too many dimensions to his game. Too good of a fit on either a 3rd line or 4th line. Too utilitarian. Laliberte has done a good job in a callup role and it's great to see the organizational depth, but at this point he has not displaced Powe. There are others who will be press boxed before Powe.
one is too many?

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Old
11-09-2009, 09:45 AM
  #425
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one is too many?
He can skate, he can hit, he can play all 3 forward positions, he can kill penalties and he's 5th on the team in goals.

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