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#1 pick offers?

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Old
04-09-2004, 04:42 AM
  #126
ArtG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jani8
"You do realize how phenomenal those numbers are for a teenager playing in the RSL, I hope."

Then you must be speechless watching Patrice Bergeron, who is the same age as Ovechkin, produce "phenomenal" number as a teenager in the NHL, I hope.
good point! how about Rick Nash?!

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04-09-2004, 06:50 AM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittengineer
according to most scouts and gm's, malkin has more potential than AO,
This is complete BS and you are just making that up......I wont say there isnt a scout that feels that way.......but most.....?

just something you made up.....and if I am wrong please supply some link support to prove such a statement

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04-09-2004, 07:23 AM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EroCaps
Ovechkin is DOMINANT offensively, better than Zherdev.

Lemieux wasn't exactly "flashy" either...neither is Hull, Forsberg, Heatley, etc.
I know your new thing now is to bash other players and prop up your own on some kind of pedestal, but give me a break. Until Ovechkin steps onto in NHL and starts putting up points you have no basis for that first statement. Brendl was supposed to be some whizkid due to the numbers he put up in junior and he's busted to the nth degree.

If Ovechkin is so much better offensively than Zherdev, why did he score two less points than Zherdev in their respective draft years?

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04-09-2004, 07:48 AM
  #129
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Didnt say that Malkin was a better player right now. AO already has Franchise Player written all over him. Most reports I have read say that Malkin has the most potential out of the entire draft class, even more than AO. I'll break it down a little further. What is potential? Potential is going from where you are know and where you could be in the future. Lets say as a standard, AO is only 3 steps below a Mario-type level. If he is projected as the next Mario, his potential is 3 steps. Let's say Malkin is like 5 steps from Mario-level, but he's projected to be a player right below Mario-level. So if malkin climbs to 1 step before Mario, he has climbed 4 steps. Hope this lets you kinda understand where I was coming with my statement from before.

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04-09-2004, 08:00 AM
  #130
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To illustrate the difference between Ovechkin and Malkin, simply look at the facts. Right now, Ovechkin is playing for the Senior National Team at the World Championships, while Malkin is playing for the Under-18 team.

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04-09-2004, 10:56 AM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittengineer
Didnt say that Malkin was a better player right now. AO already has Franchise Player written all over him. Most reports I have read say that Malkin has the most potential out of the entire draft class, even more than AO. I'll break it down a little further. What is potential? Potential is going from where you are know and where you could be in the future. Lets say as a standard, AO is only 3 steps below a Mario-type level. If he is projected as the next Mario, his potential is 3 steps. Let's say Malkin is like 5 steps from Mario-level, but he's projected to be a player right below Mario-level. So if malkin climbs to 1 step before Mario, he has climbed 4 steps. Hope this lets you kinda understand where I was coming with my statement from before.

Im not asking for the definition of "potential".....just show us where you read this....

"Most reports I have read say that Malkin has the most potential out of the entire draft class, even more than AO"

"according to most scouts and gm's, malkin has more potential than AO"

If there are so many scouts/GM's saying this show us some..... I have read great things about Malkin...no doubt.......but I have not seen one say he has "more potential" than AO....much less "most"....so lets see a few.......should be easy seeing how "most" feel that way

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04-09-2004, 11:29 AM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rangers
Hell no! Rather keep those prospects and picks..
Agreed...

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04-09-2004, 12:21 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra
Im not asking for the definition of "potential".....just show us where you read this....

"Most reports I have read say that Malkin has the most potential out of the entire draft class, even more than AO"

"according to most scouts and gm's, malkin has more potential than AO"

If there are so many scouts/GM's saying this show us some..... I have read great things about Malkin...no doubt.......but I have not seen one say he has "more potential" than AO....much less "most"....so lets see a few.......should be easy seeing how "most" feel that way
http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/031114/6/vilf.html
"Malkin, a six-foot-three centre with Metallurg Magnitatgorsk, is overshadowed by Ovechkin but "is a highly skilled, smooth skating, playmaking centreman" who has been developing at an accelerated pace in the last two years."

Alan Adams of NHL.com
"Malkin, meanwhile, is a power forward who has a scary upside. He works his butt off," says a European scout. "He works all the time and that is impressive because that's rare in Russia. I like his attitude. He's a great package."

Henry Lim (U-18 Report 2003)
Malkin is an incredible prospect with immense potential and he could be the second overall pick in the 2004 NHL entry draft behind Ovechkin. Born on July 31, 1986, Malkin was the second youngest player on the Russian roster yet he finished second in team scoring behind Ovechkin with 5 goals, 4 assists, and 9 points in 6 games. Importantly, Malkin proved capable of playing against the North American style of game. In the opening 6-3 win over the eventual champions Canada, Malkin scored two goals on goaltender Ryan Munce of the Sarnia Sting (OHL). He also finished the tournament with two goals against the United States. However, Malkin fared poorly in the faceoffs winning only 36% of his draws. Also impressive was that Malkin was second in the tournament with a +11 rating behind Ovechkin. Incredibly, he was not on the ice for a single goal against in the entire tournament as was fellow linemate ****ikov. With his skills packaged in a 6-3, 180lbs frame, Malkin is sure to entice drooling scouts to trek to his Russian club team Metallurg Magnitogorsk. "

nhl.com
"Yevgeny Malkin, F, Russia -- There were games at the World Junior Championship where Malkin outshined the top-rated Ovechkin. Malkin remains the consensus No. 2 overall pick behind his fellow countryman and he has everything a team would want, including a great attitude. His offensive skills features lots of head fakes and one-on-one magic."

I, however, cannot find the page I was reading with someone from Redline and Woodlief comments on Malkin. And here in Pittsubrgh, Greg Malone said on the Mark Madden show on ESPN that Malkin has untapped and immense potential. So without the 'proof' to really back up my entire previous statement, I will say that most gms and scouts say that malkin arguable has the most potential in the draft.

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04-09-2004, 12:22 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birko19
Ohh NO? well let's see here:

Philadelphia Flyers traded Ron Hextall (Vetran Goalie), Peter Forsberg (High Touted prospect at the time), Steve Duchesne (Solid defender at the time), Kerry Huffman (Depth defender), Mike Ricci (Another high touted youngster at the time who was picked 4th overall 2 years before the trade), Chris Simon (Great Enforcer), 1st round selection in 1993, 1st round selection in 1994, and Cash to the Quebec Nordiques for Eric Lindros.
Yeah, the trades you proposed aren't even close to this. In the Lindros trade you have some *good* players (not great) and some picks, a prospect, and a lot of cash. Forsberg was an unknown and was supposed to go late in the first round, he wasn't nearly as touted as some of the prospects you're throwing around. In that trade Quebec knew they were getting a bunch of decent to good players, Forsberg was the unknown and had proven nothing yet.

In your proposals, you're trading young, bonafide stars/superstars(and sometimes with two 1sts and another player added) for a draft pick. In the Lindros trade none of the young players had proven ANYTHING in the NHL, the only ones who had proven something were the veterans in the trade. In your trades you're trading young 40 and 50 goal scorers (+ added picks), for a draft pick.

Seriously, the trades have nothing in common, the Lindros deal was a quantity for quality deal. Your trades are quality for quality deals, but very lopsided. If Forsberg wouldn't have turned out the way he did, it would have been a huge steal for the Flyers, something none of these teams could say if they made any of these deals.

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04-09-2004, 12:27 PM
  #135
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That's your proof?

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Old
04-09-2004, 12:30 PM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyers guy
Yeah, the trades you proposed aren't even close to this. In the Lindros trade you have some *good* players (not great) and some picks, a prospect, and a lot of cash. Forsberg was an unknown and was supposed to go late in the first round, he wasn't nearly as touted as some of the prospects you're throwing around. In that trade Quebec knew they were getting a bunch of decent to good players, Forsberg was the unknown and had proven nothing yet.

In your proposals, you're trading young, bonafide stars/superstars(and sometimes with two 1sts and another player added) for a draft pick. In the Lindros trade none of the young players had proven ANYTHING in the NHL, the only ones who had proven something were the veterans in the trade. In your trades you're trading young 40 and 50 goal scorers (+ added picks), for a draft pick.

Seriously, the trades have nothing in common, the Lindros deal was a quantity for quality deal. Your trades are quality for quality deals, but very lopsided. If Forsberg wouldn't have turned out the way he did, it would have been a huge steal for the Flyers, something none of these teams could say if they made any of these deals.

Added to that, I think that a lot of general managers will be wary of trading that much again, precisely because of how the Lindros trade turned out.

I think that a)Washington wants the pick and will end up with the pick, and b)very few GM's will morgage their future like Philly did because they see the inherent risks of banking on an 18 year old, and they can see the cups in Colorado.

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04-09-2004, 12:41 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyers guy
Yeah, the trades you proposed aren't even close to this. In the Lindros trade you have some *good* players (not great) and some picks, a prospect, and a lot of cash. Forsberg was an unknown and was supposed to go late in the first round, he wasn't nearly as touted as some of the prospects you're throwing around. In that trade Quebec knew they were getting a bunch of decent to good players, Forsberg was the unknown and had proven nothing yet.

In your proposals, you're trading young, bonafide stars/superstars(and sometimes with two 1sts and another player added) for a draft pick. In the Lindros trade none of the young players had proven ANYTHING in the NHL, the only ones who had proven something were the veterans in the trade. In your trades you're trading young 40 and 50 goal scorers (+ added picks), for a draft pick.

Seriously, the trades have nothing in common, the Lindros deal was a quantity for quality deal. Your trades are quality for quality deals, but very lopsided. If Forsberg wouldn't have turned out the way he did, it would have been a huge steal for the Flyers, something none of these teams could say if they made any of these deals.
You're mistaken, Forsberg was a high touted prospect at the time, look at his numbers in the SEL, he dominated and was known to have star potential, just not at Lindros's level, it's like comparing Schremp to Ovechkin, that's the difference, not to mention that Mike Ricci was another high touted youngster at the time, he was pickeds 4th overall in the 1990 draft and this trade did happen in 1992, so at the time Ricci's potential was still high, you add all the proven vetrans, the two 1st rounders, and Cash and that sums it all up.

One more thing, you said that the Nords gave up young guys who hav't proved a thing, well since when has a prospect proved anything? any of these youngsters I mentinoed could turn out to be busts, they might show some talent in their first year or so, but so did Daigle, so they're not superstars yet, however they do have that potential just like the potential that Forsberg and Ricci had in 1992.

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04-09-2004, 12:45 PM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oil slick
Added to that, I think that a lot of general managers will be wary of trading that much again, precisely because of how the Lindros trade turned out.

I think that a)Washington wants the pick and will end up with the pick, and b)very few GM's will morgage their future like Philly did because they see the inherent risks of banking on an 18 year old, and they can see the cups in Colorado.
I agree, GM's won't make these kinds of deals and Washington will end up drafting AO, but if any team wanted to trade for Ovechkin, it's going to take that kind of trade to get him, just like Lindros.

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04-09-2004, 12:57 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittengineer
http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/031114/6/vilf.html
"Malkin, a six-foot-three centre with Metallurg Magnitatgorsk, is overshadowed by Ovechkin but "is a highly skilled, smooth skating, playmaking centreman" who has been developing at an accelerated pace in the last two years."

Alan Adams of NHL.com
"Malkin, meanwhile, is a power forward who has a scary upside. He works his butt off," says a European scout. "He works all the time and that is impressive because that's rare in Russia. I like his attitude. He's a great package."

Henry Lim (U-18 Report 2003)
Malkin is an incredible prospect with immense potential and he could be the second overall pick in the 2004 NHL entry draft behind Ovechkin. Born on July 31, 1986, Malkin was the second youngest player on the Russian roster yet he finished second in team scoring behind Ovechkin with 5 goals, 4 assists, and 9 points in 6 games. Importantly, Malkin proved capable of playing against the North American style of game. In the opening 6-3 win over the eventual champions Canada, Malkin scored two goals on goaltender Ryan Munce of the Sarnia Sting (OHL). He also finished the tournament with two goals against the United States. However, Malkin fared poorly in the faceoffs winning only 36% of his draws. Also impressive was that Malkin was second in the tournament with a +11 rating behind Ovechkin. Incredibly, he was not on the ice for a single goal against in the entire tournament as was fellow linemate ****ikov. With his skills packaged in a 6-3, 180lbs frame, Malkin is sure to entice drooling scouts to trek to his Russian club team Metallurg Magnitogorsk. "

nhl.com
"Yevgeny Malkin, F, Russia -- There were games at the World Junior Championship where Malkin outshined the top-rated Ovechkin. Malkin remains the consensus No. 2 overall pick behind his fellow countryman and he has everything a team would want, including a great attitude. His offensive skills features lots of head fakes and one-on-one magic."

I, however, cannot find the page I was reading with someone from Redline and Woodlief comments on Malkin. And here in Pittsubrgh, Greg Malone said on the Mark Madden show on ESPN that Malkin has untapped and immense potential. So without the 'proof' to really back up my entire previous statement, I will say that most gms and scouts say that malkin arguable has the most potential in the draft.

After reading this all I see nothing that says Malkin has more potential then AO. Thanks for wasting my time.

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04-09-2004, 01:11 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by bigeasy
great post - i agree with your thought process - these are overpayments in most cases but that is what it is going to take

another pittsburgh thought - orpik and whitney and 1st rounder
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. YOU HAFFTA BE KIDDING ME. NO WAY. I'd much rather have Malkin and those two

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04-09-2004, 01:14 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by b-mad
Please name any GM or scout that's not in the Pens org that's said Malkin is better than AO.......please.
Read this you'll enjoy it, know one said better, but the gap is closing http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/trib.../s_188112.html

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04-09-2004, 01:14 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Sir Ozzie X
I know your new thing now is to bash other players and prop up your own on some kind of pedestal, but give me a break. Until Ovechkin steps onto in NHL and starts putting up points you have no basis for that first statement. Brendl was supposed to be some whizkid due to the numbers he put up in junior and he's busted to the nth degree.

If Ovechkin is so much better offensively than Zherdev, why did he score two less points than Zherdev in their respective draft years?
Nah, it's taking my own team's players' side of the argument, not propping them up. It's bias optimism.

I haven't read where Zherdev scored two more points than Ovechkin this year, do you have a link? I have however read a slew of articles by accomplished scouts who tout Ovechkin as the best in some time.

His accumulative accomplishments are outstanding, and if the measure of success in the NHL has anything to do with talent, maturity, and professionalism, he'll succeed.

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04-09-2004, 01:24 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Herb_Brooks
Read this you'll enjoy it, know one said better, but the gap is closing http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/trib.../s_188112.html
I'm not concerned if "the gap is closing". It says more about Malkin than Ovechkin, and both will be available at #1. My issue is that not one interview I've read really breaks down Malkin's game, never puts it under that hyper-focused micro-scope that AO has been subject to for a year. All I'm readind is that he's a big guy with moves who has a lot of potential.

In truth he's an inch taller than Ovechkin, maybe, and he weighs less. Every player has years where their development accelerates at incredible rates, every player has their own pace, but it sounds as if everyone is expecting Malkin to turn into the Secretariat of hockey players and lap Ovechkin in talent in three months to three years.

They're both 6'3 with moves, but from what I can tell, AO has more of them, with better skating, speed, and goal-scoring instinct.

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04-09-2004, 01:33 PM
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittengineer
http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/031114/6/vilf.html
"Malkin, a six-foot-three centre with Metallurg Magnitatgorsk, is overshadowed by Ovechkin but "is a highly skilled, smooth skating, playmaking centreman" who has been developing at an accelerated pace in the last two years."

Alan Adams of NHL.com
"Malkin, meanwhile, is a power forward who has a scary upside. He works his butt off," says a European scout. "He works all the time and that is impressive because that's rare in Russia. I like his attitude. He's a great package."

Henry Lim (U-18 Report 2003)
Malkin is an incredible prospect with immense potential and he could be the second overall pick in the 2004 NHL entry draft behind Ovechkin. Born on July 31, 1986, Malkin was the second youngest player on the Russian roster yet he finished second in team scoring behind Ovechkin with 5 goals, 4 assists, and 9 points in 6 games. Importantly, Malkin proved capable of playing against the North American style of game. In the opening 6-3 win over the eventual champions Canada, Malkin scored two goals on goaltender Ryan Munce of the Sarnia Sting (OHL). He also finished the tournament with two goals against the United States. However, Malkin fared poorly in the faceoffs winning only 36% of his draws. Also impressive was that Malkin was second in the tournament with a +11 rating behind Ovechkin. Incredibly, he was not on the ice for a single goal against in the entire tournament as was fellow linemate ****ikov. With his skills packaged in a 6-3, 180lbs frame, Malkin is sure to entice drooling scouts to trek to his Russian club team Metallurg Magnitogorsk. "

nhl.com
"Yevgeny Malkin, F, Russia -- There were games at the World Junior Championship where Malkin outshined the top-rated Ovechkin. Malkin remains the consensus No. 2 overall pick behind his fellow countryman and he has everything a team would want, including a great attitude. His offensive skills features lots of head fakes and one-on-one magic."

I, however, cannot find the page I was reading with someone from Redline and Woodlief comments on Malkin. And here in Pittsubrgh, Greg Malone said on the Mark Madden show on ESPN that Malkin has untapped and immense potential. So without the 'proof' to really back up my entire previous statement, I will say that most gms and scouts say that malkin arguable has the most potential in the draft.

There is no denying he has a ton of potential....and I never questioned that....all you did was post info saying he has great potential.....that is something we all know.....nothing supporting your comments about how "most scouts/GM's" say he has "more potential than AO"....which IS what you said.....and what I asked for.

For the record I agree with those that say prospects are way over-valued here.....and for all any of us know neither of these guys will turn out to be the best player(s) in this draft.....we just dont know....but there is no doubt that all you have done is read many of the glowing reviews of Malkin....and put your own spin on it.....its really that simple.....c'mon...."most scouts/GM's"......it just isnt the case

again....I am not saying one guy is, or will be, the better player....just that you are making stuff up in regards to what "most of the scouts/GM's" are saying.....of the things you posted......how much of it is from "scouts/GM's"?....and where does it say he has "more potential"?

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04-09-2004, 01:50 PM
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birko19
Ovechkin has Mario's potential


I think you are going to be greatly disappointed when he plays if you truly beleive he is in the same league as Lemieux and Gretzky.

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04-09-2004, 01:52 PM
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig1
I think you are going to be greatly disappointed when he plays if you truly beleive he is in the same league as Lemieux and Gretzky.
agreed.

the league featured higher scoring in those days.


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04-09-2004, 01:56 PM
  #147
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From LA. brown,pushkarev,barney,this years 1st
and next years 1st and 2nd round picks



From Washington #1 PICK AND A 2ND RD THIS YEAR


Last edited by THEPROPHET: 04-09-2004 at 02:14 PM.
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04-09-2004, 02:06 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by craig1
I think you are going to be greatly disappointed when he plays if you truly beleive he is in the same league as Lemieux and Gretzky.
I never said he has Mario potential, I said scouts think he has Mario potential, I personally think he hasn't proved anything yet, so I'm not sold on him yet.

Don't quote one line out of my post and twist the story around.

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04-09-2004, 02:20 PM
  #149
Mothra
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Originally Posted by Birko19
I never said he has Mario potential, I said scouts think he has Mario potential, I personally think he hasn't proved anything yet, so I'm not sold on him yet.

Don't quote one line out of my post and twist the story around.
The only time I see the Mario comparison is from sportscasters and the like....not true hockey people....I did see something like....he is special in his own way just as mario was special in his own way.....but never where a scout/GM compared them.......I could easily have missed it though

This is not directed at you at all.....but anytime I hear the Mario thing its from someone that doesnt know a hockey stick from a football bat

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04-09-2004, 02:45 PM
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra
The only time I see the Mario comparison is from sportscasters and the like....not true hockey people....I did see something like....he is special in his own way just as mario was special in his own way.....but never where a scout/GM compared them.......I could easily have missed it though

This is not directed at you at all.....but anytime I hear the Mario thing its from someone that doesnt know a hockey stick from a football bat
Well, scouts say he's suppose to be the next best thing to ever come out and I have heard it many times, if that's true then he should be better then Kovalchuk, Thornton, Lindros, and etc, I don't buy it but scouts overhype him, not me.

I just said if he's this hyped then his his value is really high trade wise, and forget about getting him unless you're willing to put a trade similar to the Lindros one.

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