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All-Time Draft #12, Part II

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Old
09-28-2009, 06:50 PM
  #26
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Inglewood selects a three-time First Team Allstar and Hart-winning defenceman.

Babe Siebert

So close, yet so far.

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09-28-2009, 06:53 PM
  #27
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I meant of the guys who aren't already on the list.
Ah, roger that.

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09-28-2009, 06:54 PM
  #28
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I love Chara and I am a huge fan. Also I think he is a good pick at this point. God Bless Canada said Pronger was unique for his size. Chara is a FREAK. Big and mean and good. Not as recklessly violent as Pronger but he can throw down with anyone.

The question mark for me is playoffs. He just really does not have any even good playoffs. He seemed with injured or mentally unable to come through in the playoffs for Ottawa and Boston is the 2nd best team in the NHL and they can't get to the final.

Like I said, I am a huge fan of Chara. But I really do think there are some question marks about him in performing under pressure in big games. Looking at say Ovechkin... with a far shorter career and one playoffs he was unbelievable for them however. Iginla has the Game 7 of the Stanley Cup final... he had a Smythe worthy playoff on his resume. Chara IMO has never even played well in the playoffs let alone exceptionally. I'd love to see him go all Pronger and take the Bruins to the final or the Cup but he has never been close to doing this in Ottawa or Boston.
Chara is unique. There's never been another player like him. He's the only player I can think of who's taller than 6'6" and had a real impact on the game. (I have Tyler Myers on my fantasy pool farm team, so I'm hoping he changes that). There have been a handful of good 6'6" defencemen.

Along with Pronger and Lidstrom, he's one of three defining defencemen in his generation. And just like Pronger and Lidstrom, every hockey person is looking for the next Chara.

Playoffs are an issue. He had some underwhelming playoffs in Ottawa, especially in 2006 when he looked lost against the dazzling speed and smarts of Buffalo. I don't necessarily buy the injury thing. Everyone in the second round of the playoffs has an injury. It's the ones that will sideline you for four, six, eight weeks that make me pay attention.

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09-28-2009, 07:10 PM
  #29
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I see your Giraffe Chara, I raise you Moose Johnson!



A huge man for his day, Moose protected his zone with his enormous reach, as well as generally putting up around half a point per game in the NHA and PCHA, before they started recording second assists. If I'm reading correctly, he won the Cup 4 times (but this was in the challenge days, so it happened more than once a year).
His calling card for the ATD, however, is 8 FASTs in the PCHA. Split league, yes, but that still likely shakes out to the equivalent of 4 FASTs and 4 SASTs!
He won the Cup with the Montreal Wanderers in 1906, 1907, 1908, 1910.

At the end of Trail of the Stanley Cup Vol. 1, Chalres Coleman selects his all-star team from 1893-1926. Ernie Johnson was one of the defenseman he selected.

Johnson also received 2 Retro Harts, 5 Retro Norrises, and 2 Retro Selkes as a left winger. He was also named "Best Defensive Defenseman" of 1910-19 in Ultimate Hockey.... and "Best Poke-Checker" of 1900-09 and 1910-19.

I've done his stats using Hockey-Reference, so I may be missing some people. Please correct me if I am wrong. Here's where he ranked among PCHA defensemen:

Points – 4th(1912), 5th(1913), 4th(1914), 2nd(1915), 4th(1916), 2nd(1917), 4th(1918), 4th(1919), 4th(1920), 5th(1921)
Goals – 4th(1912), 5th(1913), 4th(1914), 2nd(1915), 4th(1916), 2nd(1917), 2nd(1918), 3rd(1919)
Assists – 4th(1913), 3rd(1914), 2nd(1915), 5th(1916), 5th(1917), 4th(1918), 4th(1919), 2nd(1920), 3rd(1920)


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Old
09-28-2009, 07:12 PM
  #30
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He was also named "Best Defensive Defenseman" of 1910-19 in Ultimate Hockey.... and "Best Poke-Checker" of 1900-09 and 1910-19.
I can't even begin to imagine how they decided who was the best pokechecker in any given year.

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09-28-2009, 07:22 PM
  #31
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Yeah, you have to think that if he was even decent in the playoffs, Ottawa would have made sure they kept him. He's obviously gotten better since the Ottawa days, but his playoff resume in Boston is... at best good, which isn't good enough for a player of his caliber.
I wish the Senators had kept him.... very, very much. Some year he has to have a great playoffs? Doesn't he?

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09-28-2009, 07:22 PM
  #32
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I can't even begin to imagine how they decided who was the best pokechecker in any given year.
The 10 foot reach probably helped

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09-28-2009, 07:28 PM
  #33
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Chara is unique. There's never been another player like him. He's the only player I can think of who's taller than 6'6" and had a real impact on the game. (I have Tyler Myers on my fantasy pool farm team, so I'm hoping he changes that). There have been a handful of good 6'6" defencemen.

Along with Pronger and Lidstrom, he's one of three defining defencemen in his generation. And just like Pronger and Lidstrom, every hockey person is looking for the next Chara.

Playoffs are an issue. He had some underwhelming playoffs in Ottawa, especially in 2006 when he looked lost against the dazzling speed and smarts of Buffalo. I don't necessarily buy the injury thing. Everyone in the second round of the playoffs has an injury. It's the ones that will sideline you for four, six, eight weeks that make me pay attention.
He claimed he did not have an injury... while the media and many fans here.. and that I talked to thought he HAD to have one considering how he had played.

I like Chara... I was thinking about maybe taking him with my next pick. But he really has not had the kind of playoff success that a player of his talent should have had.

If he was as crazy violent like Pronger he would be by far the most feared player in the NHL. But he is controlled moreso though he hits large and will fight. Watching Chara fight is the best. I like to watch fights but I am not one to go to hockeyfights or care about them that much.. A Chara fight is worth watching. He may not be the best heavyweight ever.... he may at times fall down an lose his balance. But I say... while he may not or might not beat anyone in any one fight... He could beat anyone all-time if the fight goes right... he does not fall down. Not saying that he is the best fighter ever.. just that he could beat the best fighter ever 1 out of 3 fights.

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09-28-2009, 07:57 PM
  #34
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The main reason I took Chara was to pair him up with "Ching" Johnson, the thinking being that here is a 1-2 on D that can physically stand up to many of the top forward lines in the pool.

Later on, if we need to discuss the playoff record of Chara, I look forward to doing it in the context of my entire team. I think it's safe to say that Chara has never had the luxury of having a defense partner on the level of Ching Johnson or any two forwards to approach the talents of Gordie Howe and Frank Boucher. As a matter of fact, Chara does not have a single teammate selected so far in the ATD and I'm curious if he'll even have one when all the picks are done.

As for his substandard playoff record, he did make it to within one game of the finals in 2003, but his goalie wasn't named Martin Brodeur, he was named XXX XXXX and even then they only fell a goal short.


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Old
09-28-2009, 08:07 PM
  #35
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The main reason I took Chara was to pair him up with "Ching" Johnson, the thinking being that here is a 1-2 on D that can physically stand up to many of the top forward lines in the pool.

Later on, if we need to discuss the playoff record of Chara, I look forward to doing it in the context of my entire team. I think it's safe to say that Chara has never had the luxury of having a defense partner on the level of Ching Johnson or any two forwards to approach the talents of Gordie Howe and Frank Boucher. As a matter of fact, Chara does not have a single teammate selected so far in the ATD and I'm curious if he'll even have one when all the picks are done.

As for his substandard playoff record, he did make it to within one game of the finals in 2003, but his goalie wasn't named Martin Brodeur, he was named XXX XXXX and even then they only fell a goal short.
Good thing you xxx'd out that goalie's name. Otherwise, someone might be tempted to take him.

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Old
09-28-2009, 08:14 PM
  #36
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The main reason I took Chara was to pair him up with "Ching" Johnson, the thinking being that here is a 1-2 on D that can physically stand up to many of the top forward lines in the pool.

As for his substandard playoff record, he did make it to within one game of the finals in 2003, but his goalie wasn't named Martin Brodeur, he was named XXX XXXX and even then they only fell a goal short.
I think Chara would work best in an ATD context as the 2nd D you pick but as the anchor of your 2nd pairing.... the first pairing being anchored by a Potvin or Bourque or another all-time great. Then his question marks do not matter as much as you are not relying on him to as much of a degree. You could also let him be more of an enforcer because if his hands get injured it is not as big a deal. With Ching.. he plays a bigger role.

Still what do I know? In an ATD format how many Potvin's and Harvey's and Bourques are there?

I like the pick but I think you need to have good explanations or other good D-Men to take into account Chara's inability to come up big when it matter's the most.

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Old
09-28-2009, 08:15 PM
  #37
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Good thing you xxx'd out that goalie's name. Otherwise, someone might be tempted to take him.
I am gonna take him as my minor league enforcer.

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Old
09-28-2009, 08:55 PM
  #38
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I am gonna take him as my minor league enforcer.
Sure you're thinking of the right goalie?

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09-28-2009, 09:07 PM
  #39
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Sure you're thinking of the right goalie?
Yeah you are right... wrong one.... a really sucky enforcer he would make.

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09-28-2009, 09:10 PM
  #40
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On a side note, Holocek and Maltsev are the two non-NHLers who I really think should be included on Top 100 lists.
holecek, yeah, but Maltsev? I read before that he could be outmuscled/intimidated. He's great, but I don't see how I could make room for him on a top-100.

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Yeah, you have to think that if he was even decent in the playoffs, Ottawa would have made sure they kept him..
Ottawa had a choice to make.... they thought at the time that it was the right one, and although Chara hasn't had a dominant playoff to date, they made the wrong choice.

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I can't even begin to imagine how they decided who was the best pokechecker in any given year.
I also look at the Ultimate Hockey retro selkes and question how on earth they could say someone was the best defensive forward in 1906 and someone else was in 1907... but the "accolade" you're referring to was the declaration that he was the best pokechecker of an entire decade... not so "micro".

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09-28-2009, 09:17 PM
  #41
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Ottawa had a choice to make.... they thought at the time that it was the right one, and although Chara hasn't had a dominant playoff to date, they made the wrong choice.
Disagree. They had their best ever season without him, and their recent struggles IMO are a result of poor coaching choices, poor managing and relying on an unreliable goaltender. Not because they had no more Chara.

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09-28-2009, 09:24 PM
  #42
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Disagree. They had their best ever season without him, and their recent struggles IMO are a result of poor coaching choices, poor managing and relying on an unreliable goaltender. Not because they had no more Chara.
Ottawa dropped from a 113 point team to a 105 point team the season after Chara left, and their goal differential went from a league-best 103 to 66. They were still a very good team without him, but they missed him even then, and you'd better believe they'd love to have him now.

I'd put Ottawa's recent struggles on the skaters far more than goaltending. Their goaltending last year wasn't any worse than it has been for basically the history of the franchise, with the exception of Hasek.

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09-28-2009, 09:27 PM
  #43
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Does anyone have Red's list? He typically doesn't pop in until 2:30 AM MST.

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09-28-2009, 09:29 PM
  #44
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Ottawa had a choice to make.... they thought at the time that it was the right one, and although Chara hasn't had a dominant playoff to date, they made the wrong choice.
Big time... the key was length. Chara got 5 years and XcrapX XplayerX only got a 2 year deal.

A very, very bad choice by the Sens and XXXXXXX GM.

The Sens still made the final the next year... even though Chara has shown no big playoffs.. who knows what he would have down vs the Ducks... he was the answer to Pronger. Even if he went ape **** and got suspended like Pronger... not matter what the Sens would have been better with him then the next year and now.

I question his playoffs but I love Chara. I'd pay him his salary even if I knew he was not a great playoff guy.

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09-28-2009, 09:42 PM
  #45
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Ottawa dropped from a 113 point team to a 105 point team the season after Chara left, and their goal differential went from a league-best 103 to 66. They were still a very good team without him, but they missed him even then, and you'd better believe they'd love to have him now.

I'd put Ottawa's recent struggles on the skaters far more than goaltending. Their goaltending last year wasn't any worse than it has been for basically the history of the franchise, with the exception of Hasek.
With Chara they were decimated by Buffalo, and then the next year without him they decimated Buffalo. Clearly something was different, and I wouldn't attribute it to the role players and such that they added. Ottawa's problem in 07 was that not only did they run into a team that was about as dominant as it got, but a team that was the perfect foil to them. To be honest, I don't think they make it to the finals with Chara.

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09-28-2009, 09:42 PM
  #46
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I'm pretty sure if you ask anyone associated with ottawa if they made the right choice in the summer of '06 they will say they didn't.

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09-28-2009, 09:45 PM
  #47
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Big time... the key was length. Chara got 5 years and XcrapX XplayerX only got a 2 year deal.

A very, very bad choice by the Sens and XXXXXXX GM.

The Sens still made the final the next year... even though Chara has shown no big playoffs.. who knows what he would have down vs the Ducks... he was the answer to Pronger. Even if he went ape **** and got suspended like Pronger... not matter what the Sens would have been better with him then the next year and now.

I question his playoffs but I love Chara. I'd pay him his salary even if I knew he was not a great playoff guy.
I may be a massive homer where this is concerned, but I don't think Chara would've made a difference. The Sens' defense/goaltending was superb save for game 5, but overall it was too much to contain. Not only that, their top line was completely shut down. If they could add an entire second line, that might've made a difference, but I doubt adding Chara would've accomplished much.

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09-28-2009, 09:47 PM
  #48
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I'm pretty sure if you ask anyone associated with ottawa if they made the right choice in the summer of '06 they will say they didn't.
In retrospect, after two dismal seasons and a Norris for Chara, probably not. But their problems didn't start until a year after Chara left. That's where the mistakes were made. And don't forget about the salary cap. It would've been very hard for them IMO to ice a competitive team with Chara's big hit on there(considering how much they paid their top line as well as the lack of impact prospects they had).

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09-28-2009, 09:57 PM
  #49
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In retrospect, after two dismal seasons and a Norris for Chara, probably not. But their problems didn't start until a year after Chara left. That's where the mistakes were made. And don't forget about the salary cap. It would've been very hard for them IMO to ice a competitive team with Chara's big hit on there(considering how much they paid their top line as well as the lack of impact prospects they had).
The other guy made 6.5 for 2 years. Chara made 7.5 for 5 years. The Cup final appearance was on the 1st year of these deals. I do not think Chara vs other guy would have made a difference in the first 3 rounds... the Sens rolled through those 3 rounds. The final Chara MIGHT have made a difference. The Sens 3rd pairing D were destroyed in that series as they were weak physically. As was The other guy. Chara MIGHT have made a difference... Still the ducks were better but Chara is a guy that could have made a difference.

But still the Sens likely lose that final... but it is possible they might not have.

Perhaps it is more that the "other Guy" sucks so incredibly hard.

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09-28-2009, 10:05 PM
  #50
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With Chara they were decimated by Buffalo, and then the next year without him they decimated Buffalo. Clearly something was different, and I wouldn't attribute it to the role players and such that they added. Ottawa's problem in 07 was that not only did they run into a team that was about as dominant as it got, but a team that was the perfect foil to them. To be honest, I don't think they make it to the finals with Chara.
In 2006 they were outscored by Buffalo 16-13. In 2007 they outscored Buffalo 13-9. Not exactly decimation either way. They won all the one-goal games in 2007 that they lost in 2006. A few goals is a very thin reed on which to build an anti-Chara argument, especially with hundreds of games of excellent play since that time pointing against it.

I agree with what you mentioned earlier that the main cause of the Sens decline was their failure to develop young players, which you have to do in a cap world. But they did spend money on a few other players, and it's pretty clear at this point that Chara would have been a better bet than any of those players (not just the "other guy").

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