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All-Time Draft #12, Part II

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Old
09-28-2009, 10:15 PM
  #51
Sens Rule
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
In 2006 they were outscored by Buffalo 16-13. In 2007 they outscored Buffalo 13-9. Not exactly decimation either way. They won all the one-goal games in 2007 that they lost in 2006. A few goals is a very thin reed on which to build an anti-Chara argument, especially with hundreds of games of excellent play since that time pointing against it.

I agree with what you mentioned earlier that the main cause of the Sens decline was their failure to develop young players, which you have to do in a cap world. But they did spend money on a few other players, and it's pretty clear at this point that Chara would have been a better bet than any of those players (not just the "other guy").
1 million a year for 2 years as the Sens made their key players.. would have been little. I think long term the Sens doubted Chara. I really do. I know that they knew that Chara would want at least 5 years as UFA... I also know he signed for 7.5 in Boston and would rather have stayed in Ottawa for less... likely $7 million. So the Sens likely could have got Chara for 5 years at $7 million a season. And yet they chose XcrapX at $6.5 million for 2 years.

I think the key factor.... was fear of losing two young forwards long term if they had too much salary... the Cap was like $38 million at that point. So $7.5 or $7 a year was more than now. But also key to this argument.. I think they did not believe in Chara that much. They liked him but I do not think they thought he would win a Norris... or ever be the best D-Man in the NHL.

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09-28-2009, 10:21 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Ottawa dropped from a 113 point team to a 105 point team the season after Chara left, and their goal differential went from a league-best 103 to 66. They were still a very good team without him, but they missed him even then, and you'd better believe they'd love to have him now.

I'd put Ottawa's recent struggles on the skaters far more than goaltending. Their goaltending last year wasn't any worse than it has been for basically the history of the franchise, with the exception of Hasek.
They went to the Stanley Cup final their first year without Chara. Granted, they came out of a lesser conference, but they still went to the Cup final.

The year Ottawa reached the Cup final, they had career years from their shutdown pairing, and their checking centre was one of the best defensive forwards in the league. All three have yet to regain that form. And they struggled early that year. After about Christmas time, Ottawa played lights-out hockey.

In 2007-08, Ottawa fell victim to a toxic locker room. The talent and the personnel were almost the same. But the team was completely different. Last year, they were in recovery mode. Coaching was a problem. There were still problems in the locker room. But they also lacked depth, and they lacked a puck-moving presence from the blue line. And guys who had career years in 2007 still haven't returned to form.

Now they have better depth, but we'll see if the three pieces they have added up front equal the star they dealt.

As for the mistake in letting Chara go, it was a blunder. Not only did they let Chara go, but the guy they kept just couldn't handle the pressure of being No. 1. That defenceman was an awesome No. 2. But as a No. 1, he tries to do too much,and play outside of his limitations.

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09-29-2009, 01:05 AM
  #53
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Can someone take a list for tonight? Going to bed in a little while and Reds' time it might be a couple hours until Reds picks or his time runs out.

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09-29-2009, 01:08 AM
  #54
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I can.

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Old
09-29-2009, 01:50 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Cup 2010 Sens Rule View Post
The other guy made 6.5 for 2 years. Chara made 7.5 for 5 years. The Cup final appearance was on the 1st year of these deals. I do not think Chara vs other guy would have made a difference in the first 3 rounds... the Sens rolled through those 3 rounds. The final Chara MIGHT have made a difference. The Sens 3rd pairing D were destroyed in that series as they were weak physically. As was The other guy. Chara MIGHT have made a difference... Still the ducks were better but Chara is a guy that could have made a difference.

But still the Sens likely lose that final... but it is possible they might not have.

Perhaps it is more that the "other Guy" sucks so incredibly hard.
True, it's possibly, but I don't ever remember "the other guy" being much of a liability. Realistically it's very hard to win when your only line is completely shut down and the other teams' checking line is scoring timely goals, along with their top two lines not really being shut down, just held off the scoreboard. I guess I should rephrased that, as Chara definitely could have helped, but I dunno, I don't think he would have. But then again, I'm biased as hell, so my opinion doesn't count for much.


Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
In 2006 they were outscored by Buffalo 16-13. In 2007 they outscored Buffalo 13-9. Not exactly decimation either way. They won all the one-goal games in 2007 that they lost in 2006. A few goals is a very thin reed on which to build an anti-Chara argument, especially with hundreds of games of excellent play since that time pointing against it.

I agree with what you mentioned earlier that the main cause of the Sens decline was their failure to develop young players, which you have to do in a cap world. But they did spend money on a few other players, and it's pretty clear at this point that Chara would have been a better bet than any of those players (not just the "other guy").
The first paragraph is why I hate the overuse of statistics. I don't remember a whole lot from those series', but from what I do remember it was all Sabres in 2006 and all Sens in 2007. But then again, I didn't watch a ton of that series. The reason why I hate the statistical part is when you take a glance at games 1-4 of the finals in 2007. Anaheim outscored Ottawa 11-10 in those games. But other than game 3, they weren't all that close at all. Even though games 1,2 and 4 were all 1-goal games, the Ducks dominated.

As for the next part, while that's true and all, "the other guy" was gone last year and they were as bad as ever. Cap-wise I don't blame them for not wanting to commit 5 years to Chara for that kind of money. That's a major deal for a guy who hadn't really proved he belonged in that upper class pay scale at that point. His playoff record didn't really back him up(another reason I don't blame them for cutting him loose at the time). "The other guy" putting up better numbers(not necessarily playing better, but putting up better numbers) and being the 4th highest scorer during their playoff run in 05-06 also probably helped his case a lot.

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09-29-2009, 02:07 AM
  #56
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Steelers select Igor Larionov, C.

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Old
09-29-2009, 02:19 AM
  #57
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PHEWWWW

Seeing all the goalies go, I've been sitting on pins and needles for twenty picks... although I realized then it was just hemorrhoids.

Regardless, if I'm going to play a run-and-run game, I need a netminder who can handle the rigors of that style.

As such, the Kimberley Dynamiters are OVERJOYED to select a five-time Stanley Cup Champion, a two-time Canada Cup winner and a player that should be in the HMs on anyone's top 100 list...



G Grant Fuhr

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Old
09-29-2009, 02:20 AM
  #58
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pitseleh list-picks D Harry Howell

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Old
09-29-2009, 02:20 AM
  #59
EagleBelfour
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G Grant Fuhr
And former ATD Champion. Nice pick.

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09-29-2009, 02:25 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD
The Silver Seven Sons of Canada and the Detroit Falcons reached a deal.

Both teams will swap their respective 5th, 6th and 20th rounders.

The deal is conditionnal to... many things.
At this moment in time, this deal is still on.

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09-29-2009, 02:31 AM
  #61
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I fear that the guys you're targeting are the names atop my shortlist.

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Old
09-29-2009, 02:35 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
And former ATD Champion. Nice pick.
It's always nice to have that bonus.

As I've mentioned, I really wanted to follow a Pittsburgh-esque model, and I think I have the perfect core for it:

-Two explosive, dynamic centers
-A high-minute two-way rearguard that can run a powerplay at an elite level
-A CLUTCH goalie. Probably the best winner on the board since Roy

Of course, having XXXXXX XXXXXXXXX and XXXX XXXXXX won't get me anywhere in an ATD, but I don't think voters will care too much if I'm forced to push second-line guys into first-line duty. After all, with 32 teams, a guy that would normally go in the teen rounds is a legit option in the ten-twelve range.

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Old
09-29-2009, 02:43 AM
  #63
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-A CLUTCH goalie. Probably the best winner on the board since Roy
Ken Dryden. (And Turk Broda as well.) Strongly disagree.

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09-29-2009, 02:46 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Ken Dryden. (And Turk Broda as well.) Strongly disagree.
Sawchuk also. Hasek too. Billy Smith too.

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Old
09-29-2009, 02:46 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Ken Dryden. (And Turk Broda as well.) Strongly disagree.
Dryden, I'll agree with. But I think he's dead-even with Broda. What separates them substantially? Not Vezinas, not SCs, not FASTs, not ancillary awards.

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09-29-2009, 02:55 AM
  #66
Nalyd Psycho
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Dryden, I'll agree with. But I think he's dead-even with Broda. What separates them substantially? Not Vezinas, not SCs, not FASTs, not ancillary awards.
Agreed. I thought you were saying Fuhr is a better winner than Broda. But saying their equal in that aspect of the mental game, I agree with you.

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Old
09-29-2009, 03:04 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Agreed. I thought you were saying Fuhr is a better winner than Broda. But saying their equal in that aspect of the mental game, I agree with you.
So what is it, then, that causes people to pick them 50(+) picks apart? I'm not trying to be accusatory, I'm just curious. It seems strange to me.

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09-29-2009, 03:09 AM
  #68
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So what is it, then, that causes people to pick them 50(+) picks apart? I'm not trying to be accusatory, I'm just curious. It seems strange to me.
Not a great regular season goaltender. Padding his stats with one of the greatest team ever assemble. Not saying I am right or wrong, but I am one that think the difference between Broda and Fuhr is justifiable. I would need to be convince, but I'm all hear (that's why 1500+words biographies exist )

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09-29-2009, 03:12 AM
  #69
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So what is it, then, that causes people to pick them 50(+) picks apart? I'm not trying to be accusatory, I'm just curious. It seems strange to me.
I'd love to read a good argument.

The big difference for me is consistency, when Fuhr was on, yeah, he's a third round goalie. But, he had a lot of off years as well in what should have been his prime.

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Old
09-29-2009, 03:13 AM
  #70
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134 Reds4Life - Trinec Steelers - Alexander Ovechkin, LW
135 Mr Bugg - Kimberley Dynamiters - Grant Fuhr, G
136 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers - Harry Howell, D
137 pappyline - Toronto Toros - ON THE CLOCK
138 JFA87-66-99 - Victoria Cougars
139 GodBlessCanada & raleh - Medicine Hat Tigers
140 MacLeaf - Halifax Mooseheads
141 papershoes - Kenora Thistles
142 Evil Sather - Chicago Blackhawks
143 MadArcand - Hartford Whalers

If you're on this list, be ready to pick or send a list, please.

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Old
09-29-2009, 03:28 AM
  #71
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Quote:
He was called "the Next One" as a youngster, when expectations for the burly center matched those of his superstar predecessors, Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux

Before he ever stepped out on an NHL ice surface, Eric Lindros was heralded as the next great superstar. While still a boy he dominated NHLers physically, as he proved that in the 1991 Canada Cup. He was once billed as the closest thing to a perfect hockey player ala Gordie Howe.

A franchise player who was the best player in the NHL for a few yrs while at the peak of his career. Eric played over 30 minutes a night and was the most intimidating physical player in the NHL for a time.He had great size , very potent powerful skater, was very creative and intelligent with the puck because of his keen hockey sense. An unstoppable player because of a great work ethic. He had a very hard accurate shot that he used to score from any point on the ice.

Lindros is the kind of centerman that all GM's look when they want a big, powerful offensive centre. There aren't many out there.No one could fault another GM for picking him because he's so big and so talented.

When considering if he is a Hall of Fame consider his career as compared to Cam Neely with a higher peak

Players like Guy Lafleur and Cam Neely for their short-but-brilliant peaks, then I feel we can do the same for Eric. 6+ seasons of being amongst the very best in the game.

He may be the most physically imposing forward ever, and was talented enough to win a scoring race. Prior to "the hit", his offensive numbers were elite, especially when you account for the era he played in. 695 points in 486 games, 57 points in 50 playoff games, +215. He's won the Hart, Pearson, tied for a scoring title, and lead the playoffs in scoring. Viciously physical, elite offensive talent, very solid defensively, excellent on the draw.

No other centers bring the physical intimidation that Lindros was capable of during his prime.

He was the sixth fastest player in NHL history to score 600 points, joining the elite company of Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Peter Stastny, Mike Bossy and Jari Kurri.

Lindros finished his career with 372 goals and 493 assists for 865 points, in 760 NHL games.

Seasons 13
Era Mid 1990's to mid 2000's
Won a Memorial Cup
OHL MVP (1991)
Canadian Major Junior Player of the Year (1991)
NHL All-Rookie Team (1993)
WC-A All-Star Team (1993)
Best Forward at WC-A (1993)
NHL First All-Star Team (1995)
Lester B. Pearson Award (1995)
Hart Memorial Trophy (1995)
Runner up for the Art Ross Trophy in 95
NHL Second All-Star Team (1996)
Played in NHL All-Star Game (94, 96, 97, 98, 1999, 2000)
Lead Philadelphia to the Cup finals, leading all playoff scorers with 26 points in 96 before losing to the Wings.
Won a Canada Cup
Team Canada's captain for the 1998 Nagano Olympics.
Gold Medal playing for Canada in the 2002 Winter Olympics
Seven 30+ Goal Seasons
Eight 70+ Point Seasons
Cups- nada
Hall of Fame- Most likely
Role: Generational player-Franchise Forward



tomorrow Ill do up a Bower profile

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Old
09-29-2009, 08:36 AM
  #72
Sens Rule
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Not a great regular season goaltender. Padding his stats with one of the greatest team ever assemble. Not saying I am right or wrong, but I am one that think the difference between Broda and Fuhr is justifiable. I would need to be convince, but I'm all hear (that's why 1500+words biographies exist )
Fuhr is an effective goalie in the ATD if you have a team that is offence oriented. That is going to have breakdowns pretty regularly.

Fuhr to me is not near the best goalie. He was great for sure... but the big thing he has that almost all other good goalies do not is the attitude to not give a crap if he lets in goals. Reading The Game right now... Dryden hated to let in goals... it messed him up. Glenn Hall puked before every game. Fuhr did not give a crap.. and I mean that in a good way. He was always the same.. a goal or three did not matter. He played to win, he was a very good goalie but not the very best. But even the best goalies ever might have been driven insane on the 1980's Oilers.

If you have an offence first team... a team that is going to score a lot but also give up some really good chances and odd man breaks.. then Fuhr is your guy. If you are gonna shut down the other team and give them little.. then Fuhr is a very poor choice in an ATD.

All IMO. Later in St. Louis Fuhr had some great stats.... he was a very, very good goalie. Sure his coach was selecting Team Canada but he might have started those Canada Cups anyway. Fuhr is both overrated and underrated. But if I had a team that was just balls out offence... that was gonna be giving up a ton on defence I pick him maybe even first among all goalies.. otherwise he is not the guy I pick.

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Old
09-29-2009, 08:49 AM
  #73
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Recently reading The Game (for the 3rd or fourth time) as I have mentioned in these threads. Dryden compares good bad team goalies and good good team goalies. The main difference is that bad team goalies want to make a difference in the game... they can win or lose a game. They can steal games, they are less concerned with giving up any single goal. Whereas Dryden or good team goalies do not want to give up any goals. Dryden describes a game where he sucked totally and the Habs did not even lose. He says he could not even lose a game on the Habs.. he felt irrelevant.

To me Fuhr is the best bad team goalie ever... and he was on good teams. He had no nerves. If he let in a bad goal or 3 he still played the same after. Most golies would freak at facing 10 or 12 odd man rushes a game... Fuhr thrived on it.. and if he let in 0 goals on them or 4 goals it did not matter.

It sounds like I am putting him down but having no nerves means that a bad goal does not mean a bad game. Which is huge. Because even the best goalies if they start to let in a few golas start to fail... get nerves.. lose their stuff. Fuhr he had his stuff no matter what.

Fuhr was regarded by almost everyone in the media... general fans, coaches, players as the best goalie in the world for 5 or 6 seasons... tat in itself is very impressive. His stats are not that great.. but he was great.

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Old
09-29-2009, 09:05 AM
  #74
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Who's pick is it?

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Old
09-29-2009, 09:09 AM
  #75
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Who's pick is it?
This still looks to be relevant for the next couple hours.

Quote:
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134 Reds4Life - Trinec Steelers - Alexander Ovechkin, LW
135 Mr Bugg - Kimberley Dynamiters - Grant Fuhr, G
136 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers - Harry Howell, D
137 pappyline - Toronto Toros - ON THE CLOCK
138 JFA87-66-99 - Victoria Cougars
139 GodBlessCanada & raleh - Medicine Hat Tigers
140 MacLeaf - Halifax Mooseheads
141 papershoes - Kenora Thistles
142 Evil Sather - Chicago Blackhawks
143 MadArcand - Hartford Whalers

If you're on this list, be ready to pick or send a list, please.

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