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Old
10-01-2009, 09:27 AM
  #176
Jame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knowledge View Post
Keep in mind that 12 goals is his career high bolstered by pp time in front of the net that we could better capitalize on with Stafford.

As far as faceoffs he's at something like 52% against 3/4 liners, just about break even, so I'm baffled by why fans keep annointing him as some sort of faceoff master.
He takes faceoffs in key situations and against other teams top faceoff guys. 52% is very good considering his role/match ups.

What makes Stafford better in front of the net than Goose. I don't think I've ever seen Stafford deflect a puck successfully.

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10-01-2009, 09:39 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Knowledge View Post
I see this all over the different forums, I don't know where it started but it's the most recent 'hockey speak'.
The Sabres are looking to add a center not move their most reliable center to the wing.
Lindy talked about his #1 line yesterday of Vanek-Connolly-Roy, so...

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10-01-2009, 09:40 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Hooey View Post
Lindy talked about his #1 line yesterday of Vanek-Connolly-Roy, so...
knowledge strikes again

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Old
10-01-2009, 09:47 AM
  #179
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I think one point that everyone is missing about a 3rd line center, but inferred to with regard to the Moore signing at the deadline last year, is that it is extremely important for the player at this position to be at least 50% and even higher with regard to faceoff percentage wins.

This is the line you match against the opposing teams top line, and defense starts with winning possession of the puck.

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Old
10-01-2009, 10:43 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Hooey View Post
I don't think this is a correct evaluation. Paille could turn into Matt Ellis by working hard, hustling, etc. and be a borderline NHLer known for his hard work. But that is not the issue. The issue is that Paille's game has changed. He is approaching the game entirely different than what got him drafted. He's a marginal NHLer becuase he hasn't brought the skills he was drafted for to the big show.
Yes, Paillé COULD turn into Ellisesque player by working hard and hustling. But there is no guarantee or even a sign that this will ever happen, whereas Matt Ellis already is, well, Matt Ellis .
Paillé has more potential, but there is a big question mark, if he ever reaches it. I'm not one of those "Waive Paillé"-guys, i just don't ant him on our 4th line. If he doesn't makle the Top-9, he should sit.

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So the choice isn't between someone who works hard and does not work hard, it's between two marginal players, one that is known for hard work and one that is known for failure to instantiate his talent at the NHL level.
Hm, I don't know why you would take a player "that is known for failure to instantiate his talent" over a player "that is known for hard work" on a line, that should basically be build on... exactly, hard work.
If Paillé plays on the 4th line, i will take it and won't go hunting for Lindys head. But i would've liked McCormick on that line and Paillé either in the Top-9 or out.

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Old
10-01-2009, 02:47 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by LoveDaSlug View Post
You're right. Drury should've be on the 4th line with production like that.

Its amazing how ignorant folks are on the production levels of 3rd line centers.


Why does everyone look at Jordan Staal and act is if he what a typical 3rd line center is?


OMG can Goose be the Pens 3rd line center? Never mind the fact that Staal gets the 3rd most ES ice time on the Pens and plays far more than a normal 3rd line center.

Take a look around the NHL and Goose is right in the middle of the pack offensively for a 3rd line center. Thats with some of the ****tier and more inconsistant offensive players as his wingers.

Its funny how these things are looked at. Paille and Kotalik are two very inconsistant players. Yet the guy constantly blame the last few years when the 3rd line isn't tearing it up is Goose.

The thought was always how much more productive Paille and Kotalik would be with more skilled linemates. Yet every time they have had a shot in the top 6 they fall on their faces after one or two decent games. Whereas Goose had a few chances with Hecht/Pommer and was a point per game player with them.

Playing an entire year with Hecht, who is by far the most offensively talented he has ever played with, Goose should put up decent offensive numbers while still being part of a very good defensive line.


Last edited by joshjull: 10-01-2009 at 03:04 PM.
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Old
10-01-2009, 03:01 PM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooey View Post
I think one point that everyone is missing about a 3rd line center, but inferred to with regard to the Moore signing at the deadline last year, is that it is extremely important for the player at this position to be at least 50% and even higher with regard to faceoff percentage wins.

This is the line you match against the opposing teams top line, and defense starts with winning possession of the puck.
Moore over the last 4 years on faceoffs; he won 1803 of 3506 faceoffs taken (51.4%)

46.3%, 52.6% (tied for 23rd in the NHL), 51.4% (tied for 38th) and 54.1% (15th)

----
Goose over the last 4 years; won 1729 of 3238 faceoffs taken (53.4%)


52.2% (30th), 52.8% (22nd**), 54.9% (17th), 52.7% (28th)


Goose was better 3 out of 4 years and this past year was the first that Moor had a better percentage. Although Goose still was in the top 30 after starting the year with a surgically repaired thumb.

I'm amazed you would even try to argue faceoff percentage as a negative for Goose. He is one of the better faceoff men in the NHL and has been right with Pahlson every year 52.8%, 52.6%, 55% and 53.5%).

-------------------------------------
As someone else pointed out +/- is a pointless stat to use.

Drury had a +1 during the 06-07 season. That would have been 22nd on the team and 12th among forwards. Briere was +17 and Vanek +46.

Based on that Drury sucks defensively and Vanek should have won the Selke.


+/- can help sometimes with a trends with a player or team. But its not a good gauge of defensive prowess as an individual stat. Too many things outside a players control influence it.


Last edited by joshjull: 10-01-2009 at 03:14 PM.
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Old
10-01-2009, 03:05 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knowledge View Post
Make that two because I think the biggest area for improvement is 3rd line center.
In fact Regier talked about finding a 3rd line center.

Kennedy or Ennis might be the key player that helps this team return to being a serious contender.
He has never said that.

In fact every quote has been about how they are happy with the center depth on this team.

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Old
10-01-2009, 03:20 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knowledge View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by him not being a "black hole of offense
like others we've had".
His offensive production has been poor.
Don't we have a direct correlation between losing two skill centers and dropping out of the playoffs?


Right and the problem wasn't that the two centers (Roy and Connolly) expected to replace them couldn't get the job done. One because of injury and the other due to consistancy. Nor were the teams struggles due to the others in the top 6 like Vanek, Stafford, Pommer and Hecht having their problems the last two years.

None of the top 6 struggling was the issue , not at all. No it was Goose centering the 3rd line that is what brought the team down.


Last edited by Chainshot: 10-01-2009 at 03:30 PM. Reason: No.
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Old
10-01-2009, 03:23 PM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Right and the problem wasn't that the two centers (Roy and Connolly) expected to replace them couldn't get the job done. One because of injury and the other due to consistancy. Nor were the teams struggles due to the others in the top 6 like Vanek, Stafford, Pommer and Hecht having their problems the last two years.

None of the top 6 struggling was the issue , not at all. No it was Goose centering the 3rd line that is what brought the team down.
that was so jame of you.... oh wait...lame, you edited

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Old
10-01-2009, 03:27 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
that was so jame of you.... oh wait...lame, you edited
Just for you its been editted yet again

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Old
10-01-2009, 03:30 PM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Just for you its been editted yet again
And again.

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Old
10-01-2009, 03:56 PM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Moore over the last 4 years on faceoffs; he won 1803 of 3506 faceoffs taken (51.4%)

46.3%, 52.6% (tied for 23rd in the NHL), 51.4% (tied for 38th) and 54.1% (15th)

----
Goose over the last 4 years; won 1729 of 3238 faceoffs taken (53.4%)


52.2% (30th), 52.8% (22nd**), 54.9% (17th), 52.7% (28th)


Goose was better 3 out of 4 years and this past year was the first that Moor had a better percentage. Although Goose still was in the top 30 after starting the year with a surgically repaired thumb.

I'm amazed you would even try to argue faceoff percentage as a negative for Goose. He is one of the better faceoff men in the NHL and has been right with Pahlson every year 52.8%, 52.6%, 55% and 53.5%).

-------------------------------------
As someone else pointed out +/- is a pointless stat to use.

Drury had a +1 during the 06-07 season. That would have been 22nd on the team and 12th among forwards. Briere was +17 and Vanek +46.

Based on that Drury sucks defensively and Vanek should have won the Selke.


+/- can help sometimes with a trends with a player or team. But its not a good gauge of defensive prowess as an individual stat. Too many things outside a players control influence it.
Moore on faceoffs was Regier's rationale for bringing him in, not something I made up. I also wasn't comparing Moore to Gaustad, so you don't even need to go there. Since you brought Phalsson up, that's exactly the type of guy I'd want centering the 3rd line.

As far as plus minus, it's relevant when other factors are taken into account: it's not a pure stat that you can compare top down in the league. I'm perfectly happy with an even number, if the shut down line is going against another teams top players every night. There was a year that Peca had a great plus number, and it was an illustration of his defense ability as everyone knew he was playing against other teams top lines. On a deep team like the 06/07 Sabres, I expect big plus numbers for the offensive guys, as it's an illustration of their offensive ability and a deep team with opposing mismatches, not defense. For a guy like zetterburg, it's illustrative of both offense and defense, and is perfectly relevant. It's one of those stats that can be used to make an argument that its relevant and irrelivant, depending how you are using it. Yet the NHL continues to gather it.

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10-01-2009, 05:26 PM
  #189
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Bear in mind that faceoffs are a team stat. Unless you flip the puck into your own pocket, you need your linemates to help gain possession. I suspect that playing with 2 tenacious strong guys like Grier and Hecht will boost Goose's FO% even more.

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10-01-2009, 11:24 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
And again.
My bad

I editted out the bad originally but Jame egged me on.


Last edited by joshjull: 10-01-2009 at 11:33 PM.
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Old
10-02-2009, 12:15 AM
  #191
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Originally Posted by dire wolf View Post
Bear in mind that faceoffs are a team stat. Unless you flip the puck into your own pocket, you need your linemates to help gain possession. I suspect that playing with 2 tenacious strong guys like Grier and Hecht will boost Goose's FO% even more.
That's a great point, and one of the reasons I'm really excited to see that line this season (however long it ends up lasting).

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10-02-2009, 08:25 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
My bad

I editted out the bad originally but Jame egged me on.
Thrown under bus

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Old
10-02-2009, 08:28 AM
  #193
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Originally Posted by dire wolf View Post
Bear in mind that faceoffs are a team stat. Unless you flip the puck into your own pocket, you need your linemates to help gain possession. I suspect that playing with 2 tenacious strong guys like Grier and Hecht will boost Goose's FO% even more.
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That's a great point, and one of the reasons I'm really excited to see that line this season (however long it ends up lasting).
Huh? Coaches will attempt to come up with schemes involving the 'team' to win possession when your faceoff guy stinks, but saying the FO win percentage is a team stat is stretch.

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10-02-2009, 08:32 AM
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooey View Post
Huh? Coaches will attempt to come up with schemes involving the 'team' to win possession when your faceoff guy stinks, but saying the FO win percentage is a team stat is stretch.
I guess it depends how they define a win. I've bever really paid attention to that nor researched it.

Is it having one of the non-center players on your team touch the puck first (after the centers)? Or gaining posession completely? Or something else?

If it's the first two, it's kind of a team stat.

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10-02-2009, 08:37 AM
  #195
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I guess it depends how they define a win. I've bever really paid attention to that nor researched it.

Is it having one of the non-center players on your team touch the puck first (after the centers)? Or gaining posession completely? Or something else?

If it's the first two, it's kind of a team stat.
Well, every faceoff has a winner so it's definitely one of the first two (I think the 2nd one).

And yes, your team will have an effect on how many faceoffs you win, although I don't think it would be a very big one. Maybe a 2-3% boost.

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10-02-2009, 08:37 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by vcv View Post
I guess it depends how they define a win. I've bever really paid attention to that nor researched it.

Is it having one of the non-center players on your team touch the puck first (after the centers)? Or gaining posession completely? Or something else?

If it's the first two, it's kind of a team stat.
If it is, it's the same way that a goalies save percentage is a team stat. The faceoff man does 90% of the work.

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10-02-2009, 09:01 AM
  #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
Well, every faceoff has a winner so it's definitely one of the first two (I think the 2nd one).

And yes, your team will have an effect on how many faceoffs you win, although I don't think it would be a very big one. Maybe a 2-3% boost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooey View Post
If it is, it's the same way that a goalies save percentage is a team stat. The faceoff man does 90% of the work.
Agreed.

However, even if it makes say... a 1.5% difference. That can mark the difference between a guy labeled as average and above-average/very good.

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10-02-2009, 09:28 AM
  #198
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If it is, it's the same way that a goalies save percentage is a team stat. The faceoff man does 90% of the work.
Exactly

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10-02-2009, 09:55 AM
  #199
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Well, every faceoff has a winner so it's definitely one of the first two (I think the 2nd one).

And yes, your team will have an effect on how many faceoffs you win, although I don't think it would be a very big one. Maybe a 2-3% boost.
While I don't think you can discount the players that are out there fighting for the puck when it comes out of the circle (although I would agree that the impact is minor compared to the skill of the face-off man), I guess what I was thinking of moreso was that if the face-off were an important one--say like one you'd expect a true shutdown line to take late in the game--I would definitely want someone like Greir (especially) and to a lesser extent Hecht* out there battling to gain posession than players that are either not physically as strong or as willing to fight hard for the puck.

Note: I'm basing this partially off the assumption that last year's Hecht was an aberration

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10-02-2009, 03:22 PM
  #200
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Looks Like Lydman will miss the game,Stafford and Myers will play.

Quote:
http://buffalonews.typepad.com/sabres/
Myers in, Stafford likely

The Sabres' lines from today's skate, which could change against the Canadiens if Stafford is healthy enough to play significant minutes:

Thomas Vanek-Derek Roy-Tim Connolly

Clarke MacArthur-Tim Kennedy-Jason Pominville

Jochen Hecht-Paul Gaustad-Mike Grier

Patrick Kaleta-Matt Ellis-Stafford

Extras: Nathan Paetsch-Adam Mair-Daniel Paille

Defense pairings:

Chris Butler-Craig Rivet

Andrej Sekera-Steve Montador

Henrik Tallinder-Tyler Myers

---John Vogl

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