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Demitra on the 23 man roster

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Old
09-29-2009, 11:39 PM
  #26
NuxFan09
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Originally Posted by BrockH View Post
Ya, this still doesn't make sense to me. I understand we get additonal cap space to accomodate the replacement player. But if I understand it right, we basically only get enough cap space to accomodate that replacement player. How is it beneficial to be pushed right up against the cap before replacing him then? Either way the entirety of any extra cap space is expended on the replacement player, and for the duration of the injury we are spending at the cap (whatever that cap might be).

Or is the benefit in that the additional cap space awarded is awarded at the start and static (as opposed to flexible, as I assumed above). So if we're at the cap, and it's extended by 4M for Demitra's replacement it becomes 60.9M. Then we adjust our roster down to 58M (while Demitra's still injured), and our cap stays at 60.9M and thus we're able to save up the 2.9M in relief space on a pro-rated basis for the duration of the injury?

I'd love for someone to clarify this for me.
Me too. I'm so lost.

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09-30-2009, 12:00 AM
  #27
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Paging wetcoaster.

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09-30-2009, 12:03 AM
  #28
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You need to be as close as possible to the cap for the LTIR cushion to be allowed...

no need for MR Copy and Paste.

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Old
09-30-2009, 12:33 AM
  #29
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This is the relevant part from the CBA... But it still doesnt make sense to me.

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(d) Bona-Fide Long-TermInjury/Illness Exception to the Upper Limit. In the event that a Player on a Club becomes unfit to play (i.e., is injured, ill or disabled and unable to perform his duties as a hockey Player) such that the Club's physician believes, in his or her opinion, that the Player, owing to either an injury or an illness, will be unfit to play for at least (i) twenty-four (24) calendar days and (ii) ten (10) NHL Regular Season games, and such Club desires to replace such Player, the Club may add an additional Player or Players to its Active Roster, and the replacement Player Salary and Bonuses of such additional Player(s) may increase the Club's Averaged Club Salary to an amount up to and exceeding the Upper Limit, solely as, and to the extent and for the duration, set forth below. If, however, the League wishes to challenge the determination of a Club physician that a Player is unfit to play for purposes of the Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception, the League and the NHLPA shall promptly confer and jointly select a neutral physician, who shall review the Club physician's determination regarding the Player's fitness to play.

(i) A Club seeking to exercise the Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception must simultaneously so notify Central Registry and the NHLPA, in writing, before any Player replacing an unfit-to-play Player shall be permitted to play with the Club;

(ii) The Player Salary and Bonuses of the Player that has been deemed unfit-to-play shall continue to be counted toward the Club's Averaged Club Salary as well as count against the Players' Share during the League Year in which the Player is deemed unfit-toplay (including during the period such unfit-to-play Player is on a Bona Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception Conditioning Loan to another league);

(iii) The total replacement Player Salary and Bonuses for a Player or Players that have replaced an unfit-to-play Player may not in the aggregate exceed the amount of the Player Salary and Bonuses of the unfit-to-play Player who the Club is replacing;

(iv) The replacement Player Salary and Bonuses for any Player(s) that replace(s) an unfit-to-play Player may be added to the Club's Averaged Club Salary until such time as the Club's Averaged Club Salary reaches the Upper Limit. A Club may then exceed the Upper Limit due to the addition of replacement Player Salary and Bonuses of Players who have replaced an unfit-to-play Player, provided, however, that when the unfit-to-play Player is once again fit to play (including any period such Player is on a Bona Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception Conditioning Loan to another league), the Club shall be required to once again reduce its Averaged Club Salary to a level at or below the Upper Limit prior to the Player being able to rejoin the Club. To the extent any Player who is unfit-to-play becomes fit to play during the period of the Roster Freeze set forth in Article 13, the provisions of this Section 50.10(d)(iv) requiring a Club to come back into compliance with the Payroll Range shall supersede the provisions of Article 13 restricting transactions during the Roster Freeze;

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09-30-2009, 12:38 AM
  #30
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...and now management says Demitra *is* on LTIR. AV was apparently confused earlier today.

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/h...280/story.html

Quote:
There was confusion Tuesday as to where the Canucks stood in terms of their roster and salary cap numbers. Vigneault told reporters that for salary cap reasons, injured forward Pavol Demitra would be counted as the 23rd player. But later in the day, Canuck management said Demitra would join Jannik Hansen and Mathieu Schneider on the long-term injured list and that Vancouver's official roster number was 22.

Those 22 players have a salary cap hit of about $52.835 million, nearly $4 million below the NHL's $56.8 million salary cap.

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Old
09-30-2009, 12:40 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Squidz View Post
You need to be as close as possible to the cap for the LTIR cushion to be allowed...
But players count towards the cap regardless of their LTIR status. So if you're already over, what's the benefit in NOT having one of them as LTIR?

Have to believe the article "misunderstood" someone or quoted someone who "misunderstood".

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Old
09-30-2009, 12:51 AM
  #32
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Sundin money.

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Old
09-30-2009, 02:21 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Kickassguy View Post
...and now management says Demitra *is* on LTIR. AV was apparently confused earlier today.

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/h...280/story.html
It would be nice if sports columnist in this city could spend the time to research how LTI works. It's been how long since it was suspected the Canucks might go into the season over the cap due to LTI. One small assignment read the section of the CBA pertaining to LTI, one meeting with consultant in the know about the CBA.

As, I've stated previously the reason for the confusion is probably because Hansen and Schneider will be placed on the LTIR tomorrow, and Demitra on Thursday. Somewhat a silly excercize, but it needs to be done to have possible cap relief for Demitra injury.

Coach gets a pass for not knowing a complex issue of the salary cap. Brad Ziemer does not.

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Old
09-30-2009, 02:33 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Diven View Post
It would be nice if sports columnist in this city could spend the time to research how LTI works. It's been how long since it was suspected the Canucks might go into the season over the cap due to LTI. One small assignment read the section of the CBA pertaining to LTI, one meeting with consultant in the know about the CBA.

As, I've stated previously the reason for the confusion is probably because Hansen and Schneider will be placed on the LTIR tomorrow, and Demitra on Thursday. Somewhat a silly excercize, but it needs to be done to have possible cap relief for Demitra injury.

Coach gets a pass for not knowing a complex issue of the salary cap. Brad Ziemer does not.
Vancouver Province needs a capologist.

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Old
09-30-2009, 03:27 AM
  #35
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That article also claims Hodgson was sent back to the Brantford Battalion.
I guess in this new age of newspapers, the copy editor was the first to go.

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Old
09-30-2009, 03:36 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Tripwyre View Post
That article also claims Hodgson was sent back to the Brantford Battalion.
I guess in this new age of newspapers, the copy editor was the first to go.
Branson + Hartford=Brantford Island Coyotes?

E4: Coyotes and Islanders on the move.

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Old
09-30-2009, 03:38 AM
  #37
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If the canucks have a 23 man roster (including demitra) and a total cap hit at 56.5m, then placing him on LTIR gives them a 56.5(team salary)+4(demitra's hit)-56.8(salary cap)=3.7 cushion while demitra is on LTIR.
If they are at a 54m total cap hit, they only get a cushion of 1.2m. Because Demitra's 4 million dollar "replacement" would only push the canucks over the cap by 1.2m
That is to say:
(iii) The total replacement Player Salary and Bonuses for a Player or Players that have replaced an unfit-to-play Player may not in the aggregate exceed the amount of the Player Salary and Bonuses of the unfit-to-play Player who the Club is replacing.

This cushion is only in effect while Demitra is on LTIR, meaning there are no "cap savings" in the long run. This means before Demitra can be activated, the Canucks have to get back to a total team salary of <56.8m (including Demitra).

As I understand, the Cap hit on a daily basis would be 56.8m while Demitra is on LTIR and the Canucks would have to have a daily prorated cap hit of less than 56.8 before he can be activated.

Looks about as clear as mud.

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Old
09-30-2009, 03:48 AM
  #38
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What I don't understand though is why it's important for the cushion to be bigger? We can only replace him with a set amount and we have to get back to a proper cap hit in the end anyways so we don't get screwed over at the trade deadline or at the end of the season like Calgary.

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Old
09-30-2009, 04:05 AM
  #39
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edit: far too tired to write anything coherent


Last edited by ColumbusNucksFan: 09-30-2009 at 04:23 AM.
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Old
09-30-2009, 04:11 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by parabola View Post
What I don't understand though is why it's important for the cushion to be bigger? We can only replace him with a set amount and we have to get back to a proper cap hit in the end anyways so we don't get screwed over at the trade deadline or at the end of the season like Calgary.
I could be wrong, but I believe the cushion is used to accommodate more players under the cap. As the CBA states, the replacement could consist of a single player, or multiple players. I am under the assumption that the Canucks would like this extra flexibility for the time being.

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Old
09-30-2009, 09:55 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by parabola View Post
I think it's saying you get more relief for the player on the IR if you're closer to the cap ?
Yes, you do. I understand that much. But I would think the amount you have to spend to get closer to the cap is exactly equal to the increase in relief. If we get $500,000 more in cap space, but we're spending $500,000 more, then how are we any better off?

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Originally Posted by parabola View Post
This is the relevant part from the CBA... But it still doesnt make sense to me.
Ya, me neither. I've read it several times over.

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Originally Posted by Aktrainee View Post
If the canucks have a 23 man roster (including demitra) and a total cap hit at 56.5m, then placing him on LTIR gives them a 56.5(team salary)+4(demitra's hit)-56.8(salary cap)=3.7 cushion while demitra is on LTIR.
If they are at a 54m total cap hit, they only get a cushion of 1.2m. Because Demitra's 4 million dollar "replacement" would only push the canucks over the cap by 1.2m
Yes, but don't you actually have to have a replacement that's pushing us over by that much? I understand that the cap relief varies depending on how close you are already to the cap (in your example, 3.7M or 1.2M). But I don't see how having that additional cap relief is beneficial since if I understand right, it has to be utilized by a replacement player. If we say have one more player in at 2.5M who will never play, thus allowing us to get 3.7M in cap relief instead of 1.2M, then the only benefit we've gained is that we're able to carry that extra 2.5M player.

I can see how there's a case for it from a "something instead of nothing" perspective. But I've seen it used as an argument for Lukowich over Rome (obviously didn't happen), since Lukowich's cap hit would put us closer to the cap of 56.8M than Rome's. That's the part I don't understand as being beneficial. Because near as I can tell, the only reason for being closer to the 56.8M cap hit before putting a guy on LTIR is if you think getting closer to the 56.8M actually improves your team.

i.e. It would seem you have the option of doing it to improve, since you will get that cap relief. But it doesn't actually seem to benefit you from a cap perspective since either way you're spending to the maximum salary cap for your team (if you're getting anything from LTIR relief).


Last edited by BrockH: 09-30-2009 at 10:07 AM.
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Old
09-30-2009, 10:18 AM
  #42
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Wetcoaster can likely explain it better, but the way I interpret it is as follows...
You gain cap space above the upper limit when a player's salary (pro-rated) on LTIR takes the team above the upper limit. So if we are $100k below the cap and Demitra is on LTIR for 28 days then the portion of his pro-rated salary (for this example lets use $250k) above and beyond the upper limit would allow for a cushion of $150k.

I think there is some confusion with regards to the aggregating of salaries, including replacement players before calculating if the team is eligable for a 'cusion' above the cap.

Not sure if that explains it very well.

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Old
09-30-2009, 11:37 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by GroundskeeperWillie View Post
Wetcoaster can likely explain it better, but the way I interpret it is as follows...
You gain cap space above the upper limit when a player's salary (pro-rated) on LTIR takes the team above the upper limit. So if we are $100k below the cap and Demitra is on LTIR for 28 days then the portion of his pro-rated salary (for this example lets use $250k) above and beyond the upper limit would allow for a cushion of $150k.

I think there is some confusion with regards to the aggregating of salaries, including replacement players before calculating if the team is eligable for a 'cusion' above the cap.

Not sure if that explains it very well.
I don't think that's the part I'm stuck on. What I don't understand is, how is an additional cushion beneficial? There's no benefit in the long run, since we have to be back under 56.8M to activate him. So the only benefit seems to be in the short run. If the best team we can carry without Demitra is one that costs 58M, then how is it advantageous to push ourselves closer to the cap allowing us to spend at 60M? My understanding is that additional 2M in relief is only provided if we're actually using it on a replacement player. But if we're using it on a replacement player that doesn't improve the team, then we're no better off.

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Old
09-30-2009, 11:42 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Diven View Post
It would be nice if sports columnist in this city could spend the time to research how LTI works. It's been how long since it was suspected the Canucks might go into the season over the cap due to LTI. One small assignment read the section of the CBA pertaining to LTI, one meeting with consultant in the know about the CBA.

As, I've stated previously the reason for the confusion is probably because Hansen and Schneider will be placed on the LTIR tomorrow, and Demitra on Thursday. Somewhat a silly excercize, but it needs to be done to have possible cap relief for Demitra injury.

Coach gets a pass for not knowing a complex issue of the salary cap. Brad Ziemer does not.
He is not the first one. I took Jim Jamieson to task over his inability to understand how the cap worked. I sent a complaint to the Province Sports Editor concluding with:
Quote:
Perhaps a noobie fan may not understand this but an "expert" sports reporter should know this sort of very basic stuff.

With reporters like this spewing out misinformation as if they actually know what they are talking about , is it now wonder that the average fan who does not take the time to check things out him/herself then parrots this bunk?

I would have expected better.
The response from the editor was that this would be brought to the attention of Jamieson and it was copied to Botchford and Kuzma as well for their information.
Quote:
Hey Wet Coaster.

Thanks for both your constructive and interestingly worded note.

It's been forwarded not only to Jim, but to my other "expert" hockey writers.
I have been contacted subsequently by e-mail by several writers who run some of the more technical CBA stuff by me.

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Old
09-30-2009, 11:44 AM
  #45
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wow, here I was hoping for a trade to the Rangers for Dubinsky
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Old
09-30-2009, 11:53 AM
  #46
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This is the relevant part from the CBA... But it still doesnt make sense to me.
It is not supposed to make sense to you - that is the purpose for which we have lawyers.

What is even worse is that there were accountants involved in drafting much of the cap and HRR articles.

Paul Kelly even said he had problems understanding some parts and said it made the tax laws look simple. And this was guy who did complex litigation involving money laundering and the RICO statute.

Obviously the lawyers drafting the CBA skipped the courses on "Plain English Drafting". It is hard to get it across to some lawyers that multiple conjunctive clauses and dense language do not make it "legal" - just confusing and difficult to interpret.

BTW this is one of pet peeves. I hate "legal trilogies":

"Null, void and of no effect"

"Give, devise and bequeath"

There is no reason that legal documents cannot be written in plain and clear English.

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Old
09-30-2009, 11:57 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by timw33 View Post
Vancouver Province needs a capologist.
Or a proper reporter who is willing to do five minutes of research before they pontificate.

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Old
09-30-2009, 12:24 PM
  #48
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Old
09-30-2009, 12:28 PM
  #49
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Branson + Hartford=Brantford Island Coyotes?

E4: Coyotes and Islanders on the move.
lol, great stuff.

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Old
09-30-2009, 12:32 PM
  #50
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Vancouver Province needs a capologist.
No kidding. Also, does it aggravate anyone else on this board that Shorthouse in the last two broadcasts has said, "I'm no capologist, so I can't really say what the implications are of..." This guy is paid well to call games and to provide insight on this hockey team. Given what a big factor the cap plays in hockey now, shouldn't it be part of his job to be a "capologist"?

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