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Old
09-30-2009, 11:31 AM
  #26
Psycho Papa Joe
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The two Leafs aren't bad, but if the Cats put Horton on the market, IMO they could do better.

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Old
09-30-2009, 11:47 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kencaid View Post

1 - the eagles suck (your avatar, is it an album cover?)
Everyone knows the Eagles. But their last album (the cover in my avatar) blows "Hotel California" away. A fantastic surprise.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kencaid View Post
2 - I actually agree with your point to a certain extent. Leaf fans over rate their players, i agree, however it should be evident that once someone puts on a leaf jersey on these boards their trade value declines. White put up 26pts last year, can move the puck and had a +/- of +7, which is a big deal when playing for the worst defensive team in the NHL. Burke was offered a 2nd rounder, and he declined, so I am thinking his trade value is greater then a 2nd rounder. Kuli was a beast over in russia, even after Malkin left, and had a good rookie year in the NHL. Personally as a leaf fan I would do this deal, but its not in the best interest of either team. Kuli is still a good young player while horton could get a far higher return.
Now apply the same scrutiny the other way. Kessel hit 60 points for the first time last year, Horton has done it twice. In a hockey black-hole where nobody wants to play (Luongo, Jokinen, Bouwmeester, the GM taking a demotion to return to coaching) and the team hasn't made the playoffs since....well, the Eagles were under 50. Make no mistake, Horton has been a DISAPPOINTMENT despite averaging 27goals, 27 assists, in 76 games over the past four years as a power-forward. Imagine his potential if he gets back into a hockey culture.......

Leopold has already been traded three times for values greater than what Burke was offered for White last year (a 2nd-rounder.) His skill-set is good enough to be either a point-producer, or more likely, a Bret Hedican-type defensive partner with upper echelon wheels to cover for an offensive partner (wouldn't be surprised to see him partnered with McCabe with Bryan putting up good offensive numbers.)

Frolik is better than Kumelin, simply put.

So if Horton for Kulemin/White is fair, Kessel for Frolik/Leopold would be even more fair.

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Old
09-30-2009, 02:02 PM
  #28
grabo84
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Horton is a big strong 30 goal scoring forward. yeah, he had a bad year last season. However, Leaf fans (including you, my friend) have continually argued that one bad season should be ignored when evaluating the trade value of guys like Kaberle and VT.

Although I certainly would not call White and Kulemin "junk" neither are high level assets either. White is basically a bottom pairing dman (although he did have a nice year) and Kulemin is a prospect who is a long shot to ever be an impact player.

One sided deal, to say the least.

But, yeah, White and Klumenin are far from being junk assets.
I guess all I'd add is that Horton last scored 30 goals in 2006-2007. By way of comparison, Jason Blake put up 40 goals that year. Obviously age should be a factor here and is, but I don't think you can count on Horton being a 30 goal scorer year in and year out.

Anyways, I'm not trying to bury Horton for one bad year last year, but I think there's little doubt it would have some effect on what teams are willing to pay for him. I don't think I've ever argued that one bad season should be ignored (I'm assuming referring to Kaberle) although I have argued that one bad season shouldn't lower his value to Toronto. The same could be said for Florida, and what winds up happening is that a trade doesn't happen because nobody is willing to give up the necessary assets for a player coming off a bad year. This, of course, was the result with Kaberle, and will likely be the case with Horton. There's just too much of a disconnect for teams to agree on a trade. I hope thats sort of semi-clear, but its one of those distinctions that make this idea of "trade value" that we use around here sort of irrelevant.

All I really took issue with was the idea that Kulemin and White are junk assets - at least one GM offered a second for White last year, and a rookie who pots 15 goals is obviously worth something. The fact that the poster compared them to Kendall McCardle afterwards was even more ridiculous. Obviously, this isn't a workable trade proposal, for a lot of reasons.

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Old
09-30-2009, 02:32 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
I guess all I'd add is that Horton last scored 30 goals in 2006-2007. By way of comparison, Jason Blake put up 40 goals that year. Obviously age should be a factor here and is, but I don't think you can count on Horton being a 30 goal scorer year in and year out.

Anyways, I'm not trying to bury Horton for one bad year last year, but I think there's little doubt it would have some effect on what teams are willing to pay for him. I don't think I've ever argued that one bad season should be ignored (I'm assuming referring to Kaberle) although I have argued that one bad season shouldn't lower his value to Toronto. The same could be said for Florida, and what winds up happening is that a trade doesn't happen because nobody is willing to give up the necessary assets for a player coming off a bad year. This, of course, was the result with Kaberle, and will likely be the case with Horton. There's just too much of a disconnect for teams to agree on a trade. I hope thats sort of semi-clear, but its one of those distinctions that make this idea of "trade value" that we use around here sort of irrelevant.

All I really took issue with was the idea that Kulemin and White are junk assets - at least one GM offered a second for White last year, and a rookie who pots 15 goals is obviously worth something. The fact that the poster compared them to Kendall McCardle afterwards was even more ridiculous. Obviously, this isn't a workable trade proposal, for a lot of reasons.
Nobody who is at all balanced could call guys like Kulemin and White junk. That is for sure. No debate there whatsoever. If I were a Leaf fan, I would have reacted to that as well.

I just think you may be underestimating Horton's appeal around the league.

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Old
09-30-2009, 03:28 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
I guess all I'd add is that Horton last scored 30 goals in 2006-2007. By way of comparison, Jason Blake put up 40 goals that year. Obviously age should be a factor here and is, but I don't think you can count on Horton being a 30 goal scorer year in and year out.

Anyways, I'm not trying to bury Horton for one bad year last year, but I think there's little doubt it would have some effect on what teams are willing to pay for him. I don't think I've ever argued that one bad season should be ignored (I'm assuming referring to Kaberle) although I have argued that one bad season shouldn't lower his value to Toronto. The same could be said for Florida, and what winds up happening is that a trade doesn't happen because nobody is willing to give up the necessary assets for a player coming off a bad year. This, of course, was the result with Kaberle, and will likely be the case with Horton. There's just too much of a disconnect for teams to agree on a trade. I hope thats sort of semi-clear, but its one of those distinctions that make this idea of "trade value" that we use around here sort of irrelevant.

All I really took issue with was the idea that Kulemin and White are junk assets - at least one GM offered a second for White last year, and a rookie who pots 15 goals is obviously worth something. The fact that the poster compared them to Kendall McCardle afterwards was even more ridiculous. Obviously, this isn't a workable trade proposal, for a lot of reasons.
Part of why he had that substandard year is that Florida was forced to use him at center due to lack of depth. He's evidently better as a winger.

They seem to have solved that depth problem (or are hoping they've solved it) with Reinprecht, so the (not entirely unreasonable) hope is that he'll put up much better numbers next year.

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Old
09-30-2009, 04:14 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kencaid View Post
1 - the eagles suck (your avatar, is it an album cover?)

2 - I actually agree with your point to a certain extent. Leaf fans over rate their players, i agree, however it should be evident that once someone puts on a leaf jersey on these boards their trade value declines. White put up 26pts last year, can move the puck and had a +/- of +7, which is a big deal when playing for the worst defensive team in the NHL. Burke was offered a 2nd rounder, and he declined, so I am thinking his trade value is greater then a 2nd rounder. Kuli was a beast over in russia, even after Malkin left, and had a good rookie year in the NHL. Personally as a leaf fan I would do this deal, but its not in the best interest of either team. Kuli is still a good young player while horton could get a far higher return.
First off. The Eagles suck you say.
The Eagles were,are great. Next.
I'm quite sure you would do this deal.Two scrubs for Horton.
Well not really scrubs but One is a serviceable 5th paring d-man while the other may have been in your top 6th but wouldn't crack most other teams top 6.




He's a troll i tell you.

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Old
09-30-2009, 04:23 PM
  #32
grabo84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trapper View Post
First off. The Eagles suck you say.
The Eagles were,are great. Next.
I'm quite sure you would do this deal.Two scrubs for Horton.
Well not really scrubs but One is a serviceable 5th paring d-man while the other may have been in your top 6th but wouldn't crack most other teams top 6.
Gotta say, this guy would disagree with you about the Eagles.



Now, as far as Kulemin and White go, I don't see how you can call them scrubs. If you put them in Habs terms they're roughly equal in value to Pacioretty and Gorges. I agree, not enough for Horton, but not scrubs.

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Old
09-30-2009, 05:52 PM
  #33
GordieHoweHatTrick
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If the Maple Leafs are going to look to acquire a Center this year then one player I think could be had is Andy McDonald. He has a healthy cap-hit & a history with BB.

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Old
09-30-2009, 06:00 PM
  #34
Chandrashekhar Limit
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If the Maple Leafs are going to look to acquire a Center this year then one player I think could be had is Andy McDonald. He has a healthy cap-hit & a history with BB.
I would say age is the problem with him. I think we should stick with the forwards we have, let alone go for a top end forwards like Horton. Kadri will be able to play next season, and we already have alot of NHL ready centers (NHL and AHL combined). Not to mention, i think Burke should dea guys like Poni for the picks he gave up for Kessel.

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Old
09-30-2009, 06:17 PM
  #35
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pretty horrible trade offer from a panthers side of things.

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Old
10-01-2009, 12:06 AM
  #36
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I would say age is the problem with him. I think we should stick with the forwards we have, let alone go for a top end forwards like Horton. Kadri will be able to play next season, and we already have alot of NHL ready centers (NHL and AHL combined). Not to mention, i think Burke should dea guys like Poni for the picks he gave up for Kessel.
Andy McDonald is an asset whose stock will only rise. He's in the ripe age of 32. He's signed to a cheap contract (imo) & I wouldn't bet on Kadri being that competitive in this league next year if he makes the team. Stajan is still our #1 center

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Old
10-01-2009, 12:54 PM
  #37
Beezer
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leaf fans are great!

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Old
10-01-2009, 01:12 PM
  #38
Darth Milbury
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Originally Posted by LIMITING REAGENT View Post
I would say age is the problem with him. I think we should stick with the forwards we have, let alone go for a top end forwards like Horton. Kadri will be able to play next season, and we already have alot of NHL ready centers (NHL and AHL combined). Not to mention, i think Burke should dea guys like Poni for the picks he gave up for Kessel.
Poni is not getting you first round picks. If he has a good year, maybe he gets you back the 2nd rounder Burke dealt.

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Old
10-02-2009, 01:54 PM
  #39
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I would make this trade because you have Kessel coming back mid November.Right Now on the leafs roster we have 8 d-man.This would be a good trade for both sides because toronto trades away a d-man and we get a center to play with Kessel.

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Old
10-02-2009, 02:32 PM
  #40
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I would make this trade because you have Kessel coming back mid November.Right Now on the leafs roster we have 8 d-man.This would be a good trade for both sides because toronto trades away a d-man and we get a center to play with Kessel.
So wait, you said its good for both sides but then just gave two reasons as to why its good for Toronto. Plz enlighten me as to why the Cats should do this, and let me fill you in first:

1) we have 7 D-men signed. We don't need 8

2) We have a log jam of prospects fighting for spots right now. Repik, Matthias, Duco, etc.

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Old
10-02-2009, 02:53 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by dbhislife View Post
So wait, you said its good for both sides but then just gave two reasons as to why its good for Toronto. Plz enlighten me as to why the Cats should do this, and let me fill you in first:

1) we have 7 D-men signed. We don't need 8

2) We have a log jam of prospects fighting for spots right now. Repik, Matthias, Duco, etc.
The only condition the cats would have for doing such a trade is to get rid of Horton. As they don't seem to have given up on him, for some good reasons, the trade doesn't make sense. However, Kulemin is a pretty solid prospect with a bit of NHL experience. I'd say he's further along than Duco, Repik, or Matthias.

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Old
10-02-2009, 03:01 PM
  #42
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leaf fans are great!
Why thanks, all 17 of you panther fans are quite good as well

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