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DATA: Top twenty scorers, 1968-2009

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Old
10-01-2009, 12:06 AM
  #1
Hockey Outsider
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DATA: Top twenty scorers, 1968-2009

Here's a listing of players who ranked in the top five, top ten, top fifteen and top twenty scorers for every season from 1968-2009.

Example
Clark Gillies finished 9th in scoring in 1979 and 13th in scoring in 1978. In total he was a top-five, top-ten, top-fifteen and top-twenty scorer zero, one, two and two times, respectively. His score is reported as "0-1-2-2-5".

Attribution
I pretty much stole this concept and format from seventieslord.

PLAYER TOP 5- TOP 10 TOP 15 TOP 20 TOTAL
*Gordie Howe 20 21 22 23 86
Wayne Gretzky 16 16 17 18 67
Jaromir Jagr 8 11 12 13 44
Marcel Dionne 7 8 12 16 43
Joe Sakic 6 10 11 14 41
Mario Lemieux 9 10 11 11 41
Phil Esposito 8 8 9 10 35
Mike Bossy 5 8 9 9 31
Mark Messier 4 6 10 10 30
Steve Yzerman 3 6 9 11 29
Jean Ratelle 2 7 10 10 29
Ron Francis 3 5 8 12 28
Adam Oates 3 7 8 10 28
Bryan Trottier 3 6 8 10 27
Teemu Selanne 4 6 8 9 27
Gilbert Perreault 3 5 9 9 26
Paul Coffey 3 6 8 8 25
Dale Hawerchuk 2 4 8 10 24
Jari Kurri 3 6 7 8 24
Bobby Clarke 3 7 7 7 24
Peter Stastny 4 6 7 7 24
Bobby Orr 6 6 6 6 24
Guy Lafleur 6 6 6 6 24
Luc Robitaille 2 4 7 10 23
Peter Forsberg 4 5 7 7 23
Mark Recchi 3 4 7 8 22
Darryl Sittler 1 5 7 8 21
Denis Savard 2 5 6 7 20
Brett Hull 3 3 5 8 19
Stan Mikita 3 3 6 7 19
Joe Thornton 4 4 5 6 19
John Bucyk 1 4 5 8 18
Bernie Federko 0 5 6 7 18
Paul Kariya 3 4 5 6 18
Mats Sundin 1 2 6 8 17
Rod Gilbert 2 3 5 7 17
John LeClair 2 4 5 6 17
Pavel Bure 3 4 5 5 17
Pierre Turgeon 1 2 5 8 16
Mike Modano 0 3 6 7 16
Frank Mahovlich 0 4 6 6 16
Michel Goulet 1 4 5 6 16
Bobby Hull 2 4 5 5 16
Bernie Nicholls 1 2 5 6 14
Daniel Alfredsson 1 3 4 6 14
Doug Gilmour 2 3 3 6 14
Eric Lindros 1 3 4 6 14
Jeremy Roenick 1 2 5 6 14
Jarome Iginla 2 3 4 5 14
Alex Ovechkin 3 3 4 4 14
Rick Middleton 0 2 5 6 13
Theoren Fleury 0 3 4 6 13
Dany Heatley 2 3 4 4 13
Ilya Kovalchuk 1 4 4 4 13
Jacques Lemaire 2 3 4 4 13
Ken Hodge 3 3 3 4 13
Ziggy Palffy 1 4 4 4 13
Lanny McDonald 0 2 5 5 12
Markus Naslund 3 3 3 3 12
Pat LaFontaine 1 2 3 5 11
Dave Taylor 1 3 3 4 11
Marian Hossa 1 2 4 4 11
Martin St. Louis 2 2 3 4 11
Pavel Datsyuk 2 2 3 4 11
Pavol Demitra 0 3 4 4 11
Sergei Fedorov 1 2 4 4 11
Gordie Howe 2 3 3 3 11
Sidney Crosby 2 3 3 3 11
Yvan Cournoyer 0 2 3 5 10
Alexander Mogilny 0 2 4 4 10
Brendan Shanahan 0 2 4 4 10
Denis Potvin 1 2 3 4 10
Jason Allison 1 2 3 4 10
Kent Nilsson 1 2 3 4 10
Marc Savard 0 3 3 4 10
Rick MacLeish 2 2 3 3 10
Keith Tkachuk 0 0 4 5 9
Alex Kovalev 1 1 3 4 9
Dennis Maruk 1 1 3 4 9
Glenn Anderson 0 1 4 4 9
Norm Ullman 0 2 3 4 9
Rick Martin 0 2 3 4 9
Evgeni Malkin 2 2 2 3 9
Mike Rogers 1 2 3 3 9
Alexei Yashin 0 1 3 4 8
Raymond Bourque 0 1 3 4 8
Alex Delvecchio 0 2 3 3 8
Barry Pederson 1 2 2 3 8
Greg Adams 1 1 3 3 8
Jean Beliveau 0 2 3 3 8
John McKenzie 0 2 3 3 8
Patrik Elias 1 2 2 3 8
Syl Apps 0 2 3 3 8
Vincent Lecavalier 1 2 2 3 8
Todd Bertuzzi 2 2 2 2 8
Joe Mullen 0 1 2 4 7
Pit Martin 0 0 3 4 7
Charlie Simmer 0 2 2 3 7
Fred Stanfield 0 1 3 3 7
Jason Spezza 0 1 3 3 7
Steve Shutt 1 1 2 3 7
Wilf Paiement 0 1 3 3 7
Pete Mahovlich 1 2 2 2 7
Wayne Cashman 1 2 2 2 7
Tim Kerr 0 1 1 4 6
Doug Weight 0 1 2 3 6
Mickey Redmond 0 1 2 3 6
Tony Amonte 0 1 2 3 6
Dino Ciccarelli 0 2 2 2 6
Jimmy Carson 0 2 2 2 6
Kevin Stevens 1 1 2 2 6
Martin Straka 1 1 2 2 6
Milan Hejduk 1 1 2 2 6
Phil Goyette 1 1 2 2 6
Red Berenson 0 2 2 2 6
Walt Tkaczuk 1 1 2 2 6
Bobby Smith 0 1 1 3 5
Brad Park 0 1 1 3 5
Rene Robert 0 1 1 3 5
Rod Brind'Amour 0 0 2 3 5
Steve Larmer 0 1 1 3 5
Bill Barber 1 1 1 2 5
Brad Richards 0 1 2 2 5
Clark Gillies 0 1 2 2 5
Eric Staal 0 1 2 2 5
Jim Pappin 0 1 2 2 5
John Cullen 1 1 1 2 5
Neal Broten 0 1 2 2 5
Pierre Larouche 1 1 1 2 5
Ryan Getzlaf 0 1 2 2 5
Vic Hadfield 1 1 1 2 5
Vincent Damphousse 0 0 0 4 4
Craig Janney 0 0 1 3 4
Joe Nieuwendyk 0 0 1 3 4
Peter McNab 0 0 1 3 4
Bobby Rousseau 0 0 2 2 4
Brian Leetch 0 1 1 2 4
Butch Goring 0 0 2 2 4
Dave Andreychuk 0 1 1 2 4
Dennis Hextall 0 1 1 2 4
Glen Murray 0 1 1 2 4
Henrik Zetterberg 0 1 1 2 4
Kenny Wharram 0 1 1 2 4
Mike Gartner 0 1 1 2 4
Olli Jokinen 0 0 2 2 4
Owen Nolan 0 1 1 2 4
Rick Tocchet 0 0 2 2 4
Robert Lang 0 1 1 2 4
Alex Zhamnov 1 1 1 1 4
Bob MacMillan 1 1 1 1 4
Rob Brown 1 1 1 1 4
Tim Young 1 1 1 1 4
Zach Parise 1 1 1 1 4
Brian Propp 0 0 0 3 3
Garry Unger 0 0 0 3 3
Cam Neely 0 0 1 2 3
Daniel Sedin 0 0 1 2 3
Danny Grant 0 0 1 2 3
Dennis Hull 0 0 1 2 3
John Tonelli 0 0 1 2 3
Mike Bullard 0 0 1 2 3
Mike Ribeiro 0 0 1 2 3
Peter Bondra 0 0 1 2 3
Real Cloutier 0 0 1 2 3
Al MacInnis 0 1 1 1 3
Alex Tanguay 0 1 1 1 3
Blaine Stoughton 0 1 1 1 3
Blair MacDonald 0 1 1 1 3
Brent Sutter 0 1 1 1 3
Cory Stillman 0 1 1 1 3
Daniel Briere 0 1 1 1 3
Dave Balon 0 1 1 1 3
Dave Keon 0 1 1 1 3
Guy Chouinard 0 1 1 1 3
Hakan Loob 0 1 1 1 3
J.P. Parise 0 1 1 1 3
Jacques Richard 0 1 1 1 3
Jean Pronovost 0 1 1 1 3
John Ogrodnick 0 1 1 1 3
Jonathan Cheechoo 0 1 1 1 3
Jozef Stumpel 0 1 1 1 3

Data quality
- This only focuses on regular season offense. Playoff performance, defense, physical play, awards & nominations and historical importance are all key when ranking players. Don't use these numbers in isolation.
- Keep in mind that this only includes seasons from 1968-2008. Pre-expansion seasons from Hull, Mikita, etc are excluded.
- Every player with at least three points is included above.
- A single season can, theoretically, be quadrupled count. Tim Young finished 5th once (and was never again in the top thirty). Therefore his 1-1-1-1-4 is entirely on the basis of his 1977 season. I'm not sure if this is desirable. If you want to assign different weights to different rankings (maybe a 4-3-2-1 system?), feel free to play around with this!
- I think I properly accounted for ties but it's sometimes tricky in Excel. Let me know if you see any errors.

Analysis
- Mike Gartner, with just four points on this list, ranks even worse than I expected. He was perhaps the greatest compiler in hockey history. That's both a compliment and an insult.
- Other potential HOF players (excluding defensemen) with less than five points: Andreychuk, Barber, Gillies, Neely, Nieuwendyk (and potentially quite a few more really borderline candidates).
- Rick Martin was on track to become a HOF player, in my opinion but his actual resume is on par with Kovalev, Anderson (minus the playoffs), Tkachuk and Rogers.
- Ovechkin is already in Iginla territory after four years!
- Francis' offense is very overrated by most younger fans. Still, he was consistently very good. Only Gretzky, Dionne, Sakic and Jagr have more top-twenty seasons.
- Lafleur's 6-6-6-6-24 record comes from six consecutive seasons. I think you could argue that Lafleur had the best peak out of any forward aside from the big three, but there's surprisingly little career value outside of those years.
- Sometimes some of us get some obsessed with counting top ten seasons, we forget that an 11th or 13th place finish is still pretty special. Six players (Dionne, Hawerchuk, Messier, Perreault, Sundin and Tkachuk) each have four seasons where they ranked between 11th and 15th in scoring.
- * Note that I included Howe's full career with an asterisk, for comparative purposes.

Comments welcome.


Last edited by Hockey Outsider: 10-01-2009 at 12:24 AM.
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Old
10-01-2009, 01:15 AM
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Howe should not be there if it is post 1968.. or not near the top. i did not notice Bobby Hull so it must only be Howe that is considered pre 68.

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10-01-2009, 01:36 AM
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I am not sure this is the best system. Well it does have it's merits it greatly underscores finishing 1st, 2nd, 3rd in scoring. While it may not be that different to finish 16th or 20th in scoring.... I think 1st is a lot better than 5th.

Like Orr led the league twice. Was second 3 times and third once. Gretzky led the NHl 10 times and was second a few times. That deserves a better ranking. IMO.

I like the idea of what you are trying to do but I think I would give the top 5 scorers rank.

1st 10 pts
2nd 9ts
3rd 8pts
4th 7pts
5th 6 pts
6th-10th 4 pts
11-15th 2 pts
16-20 1 pt.

Or something along those lines.

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10-01-2009, 01:39 AM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Interesting. Honestly, Francis is quite a bit higher than I thought he would be.

Sakic sure looks a lot better than Yzerman using this metric.

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10-01-2009, 01:55 AM
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Recchi is the guy that stands out for me. He comes out ahead of numerous Hall of Famers like Sittler, Savard, Federko, Goulet, etc. He was just unfortunate in that his best seasons were when guys like Hull, Bure, and Neely were putting up ridiculous goal scoring seasons and so he's only a one time all-star.

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10-01-2009, 02:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cup 2010 Sens Rule View Post
I am not sure this is the best system. Well it does have it's merits it greatly underscores finishing 1st, 2nd, 3rd in scoring. While it may not be that different to finish 16th or 20th in scoring.... I think 1st is a lot better than 5th.

Like Orr led the league twice. Was second 3 times and third once. Gretzky led the NHl 10 times and was second a few times. That deserves a better ranking. IMO.

I like the idea of what you are trying to do but I think I would give the top 5 scorers rank.

1st 10 pts
2nd 9ts
3rd 8pts
4th 7pts
5th 6 pts
6th-10th 4 pts
11-15th 2 pts
16-20 1 pt.

Or something along those lines.
It's a list who's objective is to count the number of top 20 finishes from 68-09. Thus counting top 20 finishes is probably a pretty good way to do it.

I dont think it's a "system" that he's using to rank players or to show anything other than consistency in top 20 finishes. If someone tried to take this list as a measure of offensive ability then yes it would be a mistake.

Francis you'd think as the model of long term consistency would be higher. It is surprising to see him barely above guys like Trottier or Selanne. In a way it does help measure peak, a 5th place finish gives a player 4 points while a 12th place finish gives 2 points.

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10-01-2009, 02:35 AM
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Shouldn't Top 5 be worth 4 points, top 10 be worth 3, top 15 be worth 2 and top 20 be worth 1?

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10-01-2009, 03:24 AM
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This shows how great Selanne really was, but he gets left out of the top 100 because he was a playoff no show, on a crappy team, lol.

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10-01-2009, 06:09 PM
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jepjepjoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReLyT View Post
Shouldn't Top 5 be worth 4 points, top 10 be worth 3, top 15 be worth 2 and top 20 be worth 1?
Howe had a long career, but I don´t think he played 86 seasons... Think about it

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10-02-2009, 02:21 PM
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seventieslord
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Nice work, and thanks for the credit. This was suggested to me, but I didn't know if/when I would ever get around to it.

A few thoughts:

- I'd like to take my lists, then perhaps isolate it to only post-expansion players so that we're dealing with apples to apples, then add up the goal finishes with the assist finishes and see who appeared to be the best based on the simple addition of the two. I know there was concern that the sole use of those lists would ignore some players who were always very balanced (i.e. a guy with 38 goals and 52 assists for 90 points could miss the top-20 of each by just one, but could be 12th in points.) Personally, I don't know how I feel about that. We're programmed to like points, but the point calculation is just a simple formula. Goals plus assists. Seeing who was the best at scoring goals and best at setting them up, separately, seems like it's more logical to me. But I'll be interested to see who does better or worse on your lists as opposed to adding mine up. The reasons why will probably be obvious.

- As for a points system, I know that wasn't your purpose but it's just a rough guide. I'd do the same sort of thing. It essentially makes a top-5 finish worth 4 points, top-10 worth 3, and so on. By adding it up that way your list reflects pretty accurately a combination of who has been the most dominant offensively, plus been the most consistent while exhibiting longevity.

- Just more proof that Lafleur's career is ALL PEAK. he looks the same when isolating goals and assists.

Quote:
1st 10 pts
2nd 9ts
3rd 8pts
4th 7pts
5th 6 pts
6th-10th 4 pts
11-15th 2 pts
16-20 1 pt.
So being 1st should be 5 times as impressive as being 11th-15th? And 10 times as impressive a being 16th-20th?

What would you rather have - a guy who was 1st once, then never top-20 again? Or a guy who was 16th 10 times? Both would have 10 points under this system.

What would you rather have - a guy who was 1st once, then never top-20 again? Or a guy who was 11th 5 times? Both would have 10 points under this system.

Don't take this wrong, It's not you. I just have a major problem with points systems like this and it seems they are used everywhere in sports and even other areas of life.

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10-03-2009, 09:16 AM
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Great job done on this, thanks for sharing. Marcel dionne being in the top 5 is a pleasant surprise. I wonder if this will finally give him the credit he deserves.

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10-03-2009, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
- I'd like to take my lists, then perhaps isolate it to only post-expansion players so that we're dealing with apples to apples, then add up the goal finishes with the assist finishes and see who appeared to be the best based on the simple addition of the two. I know there was concern that the sole use of those lists would ignore some players who were always very balanced (i.e. a guy with 38 goals and 52 assists for 90 points could miss the top-20 of each by just one, but could be 12th in points.) Personally, I don't know how I feel about that. We're programmed to like points, but the point calculation is just a simple formula. Goals plus assists. Seeing who was the best at scoring goals and best at setting them up, separately, seems like it's more logical to me. But I'll be interested to see who does better or worse on your lists as opposed to adding mine up. The reasons why will probably be obvious.
It makes sense to separate goals and assists when you do all-time lists. (The number of assists per goal as varied widely over time. A playmaker in the assist-happy modern has an unfair advantage over an equally good playmaker in the low-assist pre-WWII era).

Still, if we're comparing players from the same era, I think it makes more sense to look at points rather than goals and assists separately. You win games by outscoring your opponent and it doesn't matter if a player's contributions come from scoring goals or setting up their teammates.

As a random example: if you look at goals and assists (but not total points), you can potentially distort where a player ranked. For example, in 2001, Oates led the NHL in assists. Bondra was 4th in goals. Palffy was outside of the top ten in both categories... but he actually outscored both Oates and Bondra! A one-dimensional scorer (and in this context by "one-dimensional" I mean a player who generates most of his offense through goal-scoring or playmaking) can rank higher than a balanced player like Palffy (who wasn't an elite goal-scorer or playmaker, but was very good at both). Looking at just goals and assists probably overrates one-dimensional scorers and/or underrates balanced scorers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
- As for a points system, I know that wasn't your purpose but it's just a rough guide. I'd do the same sort of thing. It essentially makes a top-5 finish worth 4 points, top-10 worth 3, and so on. By adding it up that way your list reflects pretty accurately a combination of who has been the most dominant offensively, plus been the most consistent while exhibiting longevity.
I'm definitely willing to play around with the weights given to top-five, ten and fifteen and twenty seasons. I can break it down into finer detail, too. If we come up with a scoring system that "sounds right", it will take me about one minute to re-run the numbers.

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10-03-2009, 02:10 PM
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One thing to consider is competition. Competition in the 60s 70s and 80s simply doesn't compare to the competition in the 90s (large scale influx of European players make the NHL the undisputed king of all hockey leagues). Also more teams equals more players. Harder to finish top 10 now with over 700 players than when there were only 6 teams.

So maybe someone could factor that into the table?

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10-03-2009, 02:14 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcbio11 View Post
One thing to consider is competition. Competition in the 60s 70s and 80s simply doesn't compare to the competition in the 90s (large scale influx of European players make the NHL the undisputed king of all hockey leagues). Also more teams equals more players. Harder to finish top 10 now with over 700 players than when there were only 6 teams.

So maybe someone could factor that into the table?
I, for one, agree with this... to an extent, but I don't think that's a popular opinion around here. I think the best in the league is the best in the league, but 10th best in a much larger talent pool is better than 10th best in a smaller talent pool (10/700 is a much better percentage than 10/100 for instance).

Mathematically accounting for competition isn't easy though., and it might just be better to stick to the raw data.

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10-03-2009, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by tony d View Post
Great job done on this, thanks for sharing. Marcel dionne being in the top 5 is a pleasant surprise. I wonder if this will finally give him the credit he deserves.
I don't think anybody questions his regular season credentials.

The inconsistancy is when pre-expansion guys like Andy Bathgate get passes for their playoffs, while Dionne does not.

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10-03-2009, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post

Still, if we're comparing players from the same era, I think it makes more sense to look at points rather than goals and assists separately. You win games by outscoring your opponent and it doesn't matter if a player's contributions come from scoring goals or setting up their teammates.

As a random example: if you look at goals and assists (but not total points), you can potentially distort where a player ranked. For example, in 2001, Oates led the NHL in assists. Bondra was 4th in goals. Palffy was outside of the top ten in both categories... but he actually outscored both Oates and Bondra! A one-dimensional scorer (and in this context by "one-dimensional" I mean a player who generates most of his offense through goal-scoring or playmaking) can rank higher than a balanced player like Palffy (who wasn't an elite goal-scorer or playmaker, but was very good at both). Looking at just goals and assists probably overrates one-dimensional scorers and/or underrates balanced scorers.
Agree completely. This is an issue I've brought up many times with a certain poster's rating system on here, and it's been ignored every time.

As another example, this poster (HeWhoDoesNotTakeCriticismWell) has Peter Bondra ranked well ahead of Mats Sundin in terms of career value. I don't think there's any doubt that Sundin was the better offensive player, he was just far more balanced in his scoring, and thus generally came higher overall, but lower in any specific category.

There's obvious problems when we start to think of goals and assists as separate entities on these lists, instead of two parts of the same play.


Last edited by arrbez: 10-03-2009 at 04:39 PM.
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10-03-2009, 02:52 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Agree completely. This is an issue I've brought up many times with a certain poster's rating system on here, and it's been ignored every time.

As another example, this poster (HeWhoDoesNotTakeCriticismWell) has Peter Bondra ranked well ahead of Mats Sundin in terms of career value. I don't think there's any doubt that Sundin was the better offensive player, he was just far more balanced in his scoring.

There's obvious problems when we start to think of goals and assists as separate entities on these lists, instead of two parts of the same play.
Bondra is perhaps the best example of a guy who will really be overrated if we seperate goals and assists. We talk about one-dimensional goal-scorers like Bure, but he always had close to as many assists as he did goals. Bondra wasn't a great goal scorer who was merely okay (and thus not worth mentioning) at playmaking. He literally had zero game other than scoring goals. That's what "points" tells us - it balances the two types of offensive contributions.

THere's a reason Bondra never sniffed a post-season All Star team or ever got any Hart contribution, despite being a leader in goalscoring.

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10-03-2009, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by jepjepjoo View Post
Howe had a long career, but I don´t think he played 86 seasons... Think about it
? If you finish Top 5, you get credit for Top 10. Top 15 and Top 20 in the same season. Hence Howe gets 86.

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10-03-2009, 07:22 PM
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HeWhoDoesNotTakeCriticismWell
that's actually a good username

but, what's the point with this list?

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10-03-2009, 11:26 PM
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I don't think anybody questions his regular season credentials.

The inconsistancy is when pre-expansion guys like Andy Bathgate get passes for their playoffs, while Dionne does not.
Bathgate wasn't that bad in the playoffs. he had the misfortune to play on bad teams. In his 18 seasons, his teams only made the playoffs 7 times & only advanced beyond the first round twice. First 2 years were against the 50's dynasty Canadiens. 3rd year against the Bruins he scored 8 points in 6 games. WIth toronti in 63-64 scored 9 pts in 12 games which is OK on a defensive team that ran 3 two way lines. You have to look at stats in context.

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10-04-2009, 02:53 AM
  #21
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Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
Here's a listing of players who ranked in the top five, top ten, top fifteen and top twenty scorers for every season from 1968-2009.

Example
Clark Gillies finished 9th in scoring in 1979 and 13th in scoring in 1978. In total he was a top-five, top-ten, top-fifteen and top-twenty scorer zero, one, two and two times, respectively. His score is reported as "0-1-2-2-5".

Attribution
I pretty much stole this concept and format from seventieslord.

PLAYER TOP 5- TOP 10 TOP 15 TOP 20 TOTAL
*Gordie Howe 20 21 22 23 86
Wayne Gretzky 16 16 17 18 67
Jaromir Jagr 8 11 12 13 44
Marcel Dionne 7 8 12 16 43
Joe Sakic 6 10 11 14 41
Mario Lemieux 9 10 11 11 41
Phil Esposito 8 8 9 10 35
Mike Bossy 5 8 9 9 31
Mark Messier 4 6 10 10 30
Steve Yzerman 3 6 9 11 29
Jean Ratelle 2 7 10 10 29
Ron Francis 3 5 8 12 28
Adam Oates 3 7 8 10 28
Bryan Trottier 3 6 8 10 27
Teemu Selanne 4 6 8 9 27
Gilbert Perreault 3 5 9 9 26
Paul Coffey 3 6 8 8 25
Dale Hawerchuk 2 4 8 10 24
Jari Kurri 3 6 7 8 24
Bobby Clarke 3 7 7 7 24
Peter Stastny 4 6 7 7 24
Bobby Orr 6 6 6 6 24
Guy Lafleur 6 6 6 6 24
Luc Robitaille 2 4 7 10 23
Peter Forsberg 4 5 7 7 23
Mark Recchi 3 4 7 8 22
Darryl Sittler 1 5 7 8 21
Denis Savard 2 5 6 7 20
Brett Hull 3 3 5 8 19
Stan Mikita 3 3 6 7 19
Joe Thornton 4 4 5 6 19
John Bucyk 1 4 5 8 18
Bernie Federko 0 5 6 7 18
Paul Kariya 3 4 5 6 18
Mats Sundin 1 2 6 8 17
Rod Gilbert 2 3 5 7 17
John LeClair 2 4 5 6 17
Pavel Bure 3 4 5 5 17
Pierre Turgeon 1 2 5 8 16
Mike Modano 0 3 6 7 16
Frank Mahovlich 0 4 6 6 16
Michel Goulet 1 4 5 6 16
Bobby Hull 2 4 5 5 16
Bernie Nicholls 1 2 5 6 14
Daniel Alfredsson 1 3 4 6 14
Doug Gilmour 2 3 3 6 14
Eric Lindros 1 3 4 6 14
Jeremy Roenick 1 2 5 6 14
Jarome Iginla 2 3 4 5 14
Alex Ovechkin 3 3 4 4 14
Rick Middleton 0 2 5 6 13
Theoren Fleury 0 3 4 6 13
Dany Heatley 2 3 4 4 13
Ilya Kovalchuk 1 4 4 4 13
Jacques Lemaire 2 3 4 4 13
Ken Hodge 3 3 3 4 13
Ziggy Palffy 1 4 4 4 13
Lanny McDonald 0 2 5 5 12
Markus Naslund 3 3 3 3 12
Pat LaFontaine 1 2 3 5 11
Dave Taylor 1 3 3 4 11
Marian Hossa 1 2 4 4 11
Martin St. Louis 2 2 3 4 11
Pavel Datsyuk 2 2 3 4 11
Pavol Demitra 0 3 4 4 11
Sergei Fedorov 1 2 4 4 11
Gordie Howe 2 3 3 3 11
Sidney Crosby 2 3 3 3 11
Yvan Cournoyer 0 2 3 5 10
Alexander Mogilny 0 2 4 4 10
Brendan Shanahan 0 2 4 4 10
Denis Potvin 1 2 3 4 10
Jason Allison 1 2 3 4 10
Kent Nilsson 1 2 3 4 10
Marc Savard 0 3 3 4 10
Rick MacLeish 2 2 3 3 10
Keith Tkachuk 0 0 4 5 9
Alex Kovalev 1 1 3 4 9
Dennis Maruk 1 1 3 4 9
Glenn Anderson 0 1 4 4 9
Norm Ullman 0 2 3 4 9
Rick Martin 0 2 3 4 9
Evgeni Malkin 2 2 2 3 9
Mike Rogers 1 2 3 3 9
Alexei Yashin 0 1 3 4 8
Raymond Bourque 0 1 3 4 8
Alex Delvecchio 0 2 3 3 8
Barry Pederson 1 2 2 3 8
Greg Adams 1 1 3 3 8
Jean Beliveau 0 2 3 3 8
John McKenzie 0 2 3 3 8
Patrik Elias 1 2 2 3 8
Syl Apps 0 2 3 3 8
Vincent Lecavalier 1 2 2 3 8
Todd Bertuzzi 2 2 2 2 8
Joe Mullen 0 1 2 4 7
Pit Martin 0 0 3 4 7
Charlie Simmer 0 2 2 3 7
Fred Stanfield 0 1 3 3 7
Jason Spezza 0 1 3 3 7
Steve Shutt 1 1 2 3 7
Wilf Paiement 0 1 3 3 7
Pete Mahovlich 1 2 2 2 7
Wayne Cashman 1 2 2 2 7
Tim Kerr 0 1 1 4 6
Doug Weight 0 1 2 3 6
Mickey Redmond 0 1 2 3 6
Tony Amonte 0 1 2 3 6
Dino Ciccarelli 0 2 2 2 6
Jimmy Carson 0 2 2 2 6
Kevin Stevens 1 1 2 2 6
Martin Straka 1 1 2 2 6
Milan Hejduk 1 1 2 2 6
Phil Goyette 1 1 2 2 6
Red Berenson 0 2 2 2 6
Walt Tkaczuk 1 1 2 2 6
Bobby Smith 0 1 1 3 5
Brad Park 0 1 1 3 5
Rene Robert 0 1 1 3 5
Rod Brind'Amour 0 0 2 3 5
Steve Larmer 0 1 1 3 5
Bill Barber 1 1 1 2 5
Brad Richards 0 1 2 2 5
Clark Gillies 0 1 2 2 5
Eric Staal 0 1 2 2 5
Jim Pappin 0 1 2 2 5
John Cullen 1 1 1 2 5
Neal Broten 0 1 2 2 5
Pierre Larouche 1 1 1 2 5
Ryan Getzlaf 0 1 2 2 5
Vic Hadfield 1 1 1 2 5
Vincent Damphousse 0 0 0 4 4
Craig Janney 0 0 1 3 4
Joe Nieuwendyk 0 0 1 3 4
Peter McNab 0 0 1 3 4
Bobby Rousseau 0 0 2 2 4
Brian Leetch 0 1 1 2 4
Butch Goring 0 0 2 2 4
Dave Andreychuk 0 1 1 2 4
Dennis Hextall 0 1 1 2 4
Glen Murray 0 1 1 2 4
Henrik Zetterberg 0 1 1 2 4
Kenny Wharram 0 1 1 2 4
Mike Gartner 0 1 1 2 4
Olli Jokinen 0 0 2 2 4
Owen Nolan 0 1 1 2 4
Rick Tocchet 0 0 2 2 4
Robert Lang 0 1 1 2 4
Alex Zhamnov 1 1 1 1 4
Bob MacMillan 1 1 1 1 4
Rob Brown 1 1 1 1 4
Tim Young 1 1 1 1 4
Zach Parise 1 1 1 1 4
Brian Propp 0 0 0 3 3
Garry Unger 0 0 0 3 3
Cam Neely 0 0 1 2 3
Daniel Sedin 0 0 1 2 3
Danny Grant 0 0 1 2 3
Dennis Hull 0 0 1 2 3
John Tonelli 0 0 1 2 3
Mike Bullard 0 0 1 2 3
Mike Ribeiro 0 0 1 2 3
Peter Bondra 0 0 1 2 3
Real Cloutier 0 0 1 2 3
Al MacInnis 0 1 1 1 3
Alex Tanguay 0 1 1 1 3
Blaine Stoughton 0 1 1 1 3
Blair MacDonald 0 1 1 1 3
Brent Sutter 0 1 1 1 3
Cory Stillman 0 1 1 1 3
Daniel Briere 0 1 1 1 3
Dave Balon 0 1 1 1 3
Dave Keon 0 1 1 1 3
Guy Chouinard 0 1 1 1 3
Hakan Loob 0 1 1 1 3
J.P. Parise 0 1 1 1 3
Jacques Richard 0 1 1 1 3
Jean Pronovost 0 1 1 1 3
John Ogrodnick 0 1 1 1 3
Jonathan Cheechoo 0 1 1 1 3
Jozef Stumpel 0 1 1 1 3

Data quality
- This only focuses on regular season offense. Playoff performance, defense, physical play, awards & nominations and historical importance are all key when ranking players. Don't use these numbers in isolation.
- Keep in mind that this only includes seasons from 1968-2008. Pre-expansion seasons from Hull, Mikita, etc are excluded.
- Every player with at least three points is included above.
- A single season can, theoretically, be quadrupled count. Tim Young finished 5th once (and was never again in the top thirty). Therefore his 1-1-1-1-4 is entirely on the basis of his 1977 season. I'm not sure if this is desirable. If you want to assign different weights to different rankings (maybe a 4-3-2-1 system?), feel free to play around with this!
- I think I properly accounted for ties but it's sometimes tricky in Excel. Let me know if you see any errors.

Analysis
- Mike Gartner, with just four points on this list, ranks even worse than I expected. He was perhaps the greatest compiler in hockey history. That's both a compliment and an insult.
- Other potential HOF players (excluding defensemen) with less than five points: Andreychuk, Barber, Gillies, Neely, Nieuwendyk (and potentially quite a few more really borderline candidates).
- Rick Martin was on track to become a HOF player, in my opinion but his actual resume is on par with Kovalev, Anderson (minus the playoffs), Tkachuk and Rogers.
- Ovechkin is already in Iginla territory after four years!
- Francis' offense is very overrated by most younger fans. Still, he was consistently very good. Only Gretzky, Dionne, Sakic and Jagr have more top-twenty seasons.
- Lafleur's 6-6-6-6-24 record comes from six consecutive seasons. I think you could argue that Lafleur had the best peak out of any forward aside from the big three, but there's surprisingly little career value outside of those years.
- Sometimes some of us get some obsessed with counting top ten seasons, we forget that an 11th or 13th place finish is still pretty special. Six players (Dionne, Hawerchuk, Messier, Perreault, Sundin and Tkachuk) each have four seasons where they ranked between 11th and 15th in scoring.
- * Note that I included Howe's full career with an asterisk, for comparative purposes.

Comments welcome.
Don't think much of that concept....Gordie Howe was done by '71

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10-04-2009, 03:12 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Bondra is perhaps the best example of a guy who will really be overrated if we seperate goals and assists.
Great example.

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Originally Posted by jcbio11 View Post
One thing to consider is competition. Competition in the 60s 70s and 80s simply doesn't compare to the competition in the 90s (large scale influx of European players make the NHL the undisputed king of all hockey leagues). Also more teams equals more players. Harder to finish top 10 now with over 700 players than when there were only 6 teams.

So maybe someone could factor that into the table?
I think the quality of competition in the NHL depends on three factors: the global talent pool (which has obviously increased over time, though not always at the same rate), the number of teams (more teams means more weaker players are in the league) and the percentage of the world's best talent actually playing in the NHL (i.e., Europeans stars haven't always played in the NHL, and at times the NHL competed with other North American professional leagues). It would be great to make a league quality adjustment (and if you have any suggestions I can definitely try to use them) but there's a lot of factors that are really hard to research and quantify.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GNick42 View Post
Don't think much of that concept....Gordie Howe was done by '71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
- * Note that I included Howe's full career with an asterisk, for comparative purposes.


Last edited by Hockey Outsider: 10-04-2009 at 03:29 AM.
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10-04-2009, 08:26 AM
  #23
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The 32 top europeans using this data:

PLAYER TOP 5- TOP 10 TOP 15 TOP 20 TOTAL
Jaromir Jagr 8 11 12 13 44
Teemu Selanne 4 6 8 9 27
Jari Kurri 3 6 7 8 24
Peter Stastny 4 6 7 7 24
Peter Forsberg 4 5 7 7 23
Mats Sundin 1 2 6 8 17
Pavel Bure 3 4 5 5 17
Daniel Alfredsson 1 3 4 6 14
Alex Ovechkin 3 3 4 4 14
Ilya Kovalchuk 1 4 4 4 13
Ziggy Palffy 1 4 4 4 13
Markus Naslund 3 3 3 3 12
Marian Hossa 1 2 4 4 11
Pavel Datsyuk 2 2 3 4 11
Pavol Demitra 0 3 4 4 11
Sergei Fedorov 1 2 4 4 11
Alexander Mogilny 0 2 4 4 10
Kent Nilsson 1 2 3 4 10
Alex Kovalev 1 1 3 4 9
Evgeni Malkin 2 2 2 3 9
Alexei Yashin 0 1 3 4 8
Patrik Elias 1 2 2 3 8
Martin Straka 1 1 2 2 6
Milan Hejduk 1 1 2 2 6
Henrik Zetterberg 0 1 1 2 4
Olli Jokinen 0 0 2 2 4
Robert Lang 0 1 1 2 4
Alex Zhamnov 1 1 1 1 4
Daniel Sedin 0 0 1 2 3
Peter Bondra 0 0 1 2 3
Hakan Loob 0 1 1 1 3
Jozef Stumpel 0 1 1 1 3

Top 5 players by country (Czechoslovakia are seen as Czech Republic and Slovakia, respectively):
Czech Republic: Jagr, Elias, Straka, Hejduk, Lang
Finland: Selänne, Kurri, Jokinen
Slovakia: Stastny, Palffy, Hossa, Demitra, Bondra
Sweden: Forsberg, Sundin, Alfredsson, Markus Näslund, Nilsson
Russia: Bure, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Datsyuk, Fedorov

And the top 13 U.S. players using this data:

PLAYER TOP 5- TOP 10 TOP 15 TOP 20 TOTAL
John LeClair 2 4 5 6 17
Mike Modano 0 3 6 7 16
Jeremy Roenick 1 2 5 6 14
Pat LaFontaine 1 2 3 5 11
Joe Mullen 0 1 2 4 7
Doug Weight 0 1 2 3 6
Tony Amonte 0 1 2 3 6
Jimmy Carson 0 2 2 2 6
Kevin Stevens 1 1 2 2 6
Neal Broten 0 1 2 2 5
Craig Janney 0 0 1 3 4
Brian Leetch 0 1 1 2 4
Zach Parise 1 1 1 1 4

I might have made some mistakes or missed a player entirely. If so, feel free to correct me.

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10-04-2009, 04:20 PM
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Great example.



I think the quality of competition in the NHL depends on three factors: the global talent pool (which has obviously increased over time, though not always at the same rate), the number of teams (more teams means more weaker players are in the league) and the percentage of the world's best talent actually playing in the NHL (i.e., Europeans stars haven't always played in the NHL, and at times the NHL competed with other North American professional leagues). It would be great to make a league quality adjustment (and if you have any suggestions I can definitely try to use them) but there's a lot of factors that are really hard to research and quantify.
Would you agree that Fedorov is overrated, look how low he is on this list, lol. On top of that, he was not an injury prone player, so he cant use that excuse. If it wasn't for his flash in the pan Hart season in 1994, this guy wouldnt crack the top 100. Some people will say oh he dominated in the playoffs. Well, so did Brian Propp and Doug Gilmour.

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10-04-2009, 04:38 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Would you agree that Fedorov is overrated, look how low he is on this list, lol. On top of that, he was not an injury prone player, so he cant use that excuse. If it wasn't for his flash in the pan Hart season in 1994, this guy wouldnt crack the top 100. Some people will say oh he dominated in the playoffs. Well, so did Brian Propp and Doug Gilmour.
Both Fedorov and Gilmour should be in the Top 100, lol.

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