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Game 2 | Detroit Red Wings @ St. Louis Blues | 3:00 PM EST | FSD, CBC, NHLN-US |

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Old
10-03-2009, 05:01 PM
  #276
Bob Probert Owns You
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoalzie View Post
Everything is up for discussion but with this fan base, it's a matter of dealing in extremes. The first line in a 'Tale of Two Cities' explains our fans: "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times."
Though I agree with this to some extent, it's not like these 2 games were normal regular season openers. The Wings had a legitimate reason to motivate their efforts.... and all they could do was play 2 solid periods of hockey in 2 games. It's troubling that such a piss poor effort was given in front of the Swedish fans, especially when you know the Swedes on the Wings wanted to win the games. If the guys can't get up enough for that kind of challenge, wouldn't it make sense to worry about how the team handles adversity without such motivation?


Last edited by Bob Probert Owns You: 10-03-2009 at 05:45 PM.
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Old
10-03-2009, 05:03 PM
  #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Probert Owns You View Post
Though I agree with this to some extent, it's not like these 2 games were normal regular season openers. The Wings had a legitimate reason to motivate their efforts.... and all the could do was play 2 solid periods of hockey in 2 games. It's troubling that such a piss poor effort was given in front of the Swedish fans, especially when you know the Swedes on the Wings wanted to win the games. If the guys can't get up enough for that kind of challenge, wouldn't it make sense to worry about how the team handles adversity without such motivation?
nicely put

although I thought our team played ok today.. except the goaltending part

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10-03-2009, 05:04 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by GuloGulo View Post
Two, three years ago this team was damn near invincible with the lead. Something's changed.

Yeah.....



Someone left for San Jose, and things haven't been the same since.


Not mentioning any names, though.

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10-03-2009, 05:08 PM
  #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Probert Owns You View Post
Though I agree with this to some extent, it's not like these 2 games were normal regular season openers. The Wings had a legitimate reason to motivate their efforts.... and all the could do was play 2 solid periods of hockey in 2 games. It's troubling that such a piss poor effort was given in front of the Swedish fans, especially when you know the Swedes on the Wings wanted to win the games. If the guys can't get up enough for that kind of challenge, wouldn't it make sense to worry about how the team handles adversity without such motivation?

It's easy to look at this situation in hind sight but most teams would rather start their season back in North America.

The other x-factor this season will be...how does this team, along with the other teams with a strong international influence, react after the Olympic break?

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10-03-2009, 05:09 PM
  #280
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Hey Shoalz, you think we could incorporate a tanking theme for the avatars this year?

Seems kinda like the hip thing to do.

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10-03-2009, 05:11 PM
  #281
Shoalzie
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Originally Posted by OlTimeHockey View Post
Yeah.....



Someone left for San Jose, and things haven't been the same since.


Not mentioning any names, though.


The Red Wings are lot like the New England Patriots...they're at the top of the heap and then gradually they lose pieces of their foundation that they have to fill in with other people...players and coaches alike. In the last two years, this team has changed...it's not like the same team that skated the cup is out there today. The new guys have to carry their weight and the veterans have to continue to lead the way.

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10-03-2009, 05:11 PM
  #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yemack View Post
nicely put

although I thought our team played ok today.. except the goaltending part
This is how I saw it. I thought the team played better today, too. In fact, I think everyone but Howard played well enough to win the game. Although I dont think Ozzie played well yesterday, I think we would have won with him in net.

People underestimate how much bad goals will change the complexion of a game:

1) It gives the other team a boost
2) It puts the Wings on their heels
3) It makes the Wings less confident in their goaltending, and thus they try to do to much, while...
4) the forwards are left to compensate and take more risks offensively.

So you have a shaken up goaltender, an erratic defense trying to do too much, and an offense whos too concerned about entering the offensive zone to focus on all zones. Thats going to make any team look bad.

Right now, the Wings are reminding me of the Senators, circa the Lalime era.

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10-03-2009, 05:12 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
Hey Shoalz, you think we could incorporate a tanking theme for the avatars this year?

Seems kinda like the hip thing to do.


I'm thinking Chicken Little can catch on but if they lose a few more games, let's tank!

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10-03-2009, 05:13 PM
  #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
It wasn't half-assed.
Sure it was. Did you see anyone in red that badly wanted to win and was out there doing whatever it took to make it happen? St. Loo's defense was good, but they didn't even make a push. Was there even a scoring chance in the last 15 minutes besides the turnover they served up to Pavel?

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Old
10-03-2009, 05:28 PM
  #285
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The Wings stormed ahead 2-0. A disallowed goal and a post along with 4 blown PP opportunities. Give up a PK goal and just pack it in. Apart from the first 15 minutes or so, the Wings weren't playing anywhere near as good as they need to.

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10-03-2009, 06:04 PM
  #286
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Glad I sat out Howard!

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10-03-2009, 06:26 PM
  #287
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i did not see this game, but that may be good.

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Old
10-03-2009, 09:47 PM
  #288
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A few thoughts after Sweden.

* Lidstrom/Rafalski look very rusty. Rafalski continues to get slower.
* In front of the net coverage has been poor. Even Stuart, who is one of the few Wings who will lay lumber on a guy, played like it was preseason.
* I've heard a couple posters say Leino, Flip, Williams will be a great 3rd line, maybe one of the best in the league. The woman on CBC said it today, as well.
I think they're going to get eaten alive. Not enough skill to play with other teams' scoring lines. And NO strength/grit along the boards.
* Kronwall's shot was a beauty. Ericsson's jump yesterday was gold.
* Man, Maltby with a shorty and a couple golden opportunites. I think the 4th line has looked pretty good.&
* Some fans predicted a comeback for Holmstrom this year. Sadly, at five on five, he has been just as bad as he was in the playoffs last year, when he was reportedly wounded with every injury known to a hockey trainer. Unless D/Z are reuinited, I think Homer is going to get his IT reduced like Chelios did in recent years.
* I think the best thing might be to condense the lines right now. D-Z-Franzen, Flip-Leino-Bertuzzi, Cleary Abdelkader Williams, Draper, Maltby Eaves/Helm/Homer.
* Also, I'd like to see the PK handed off to third and fourth line forwards. And if Helm, Abdelkader, Williams, Eaves, Draper, Maltby don't dive in front of the shots, they can sit.
Shotblocking forwards are the norm, anymore. Let's see the fourth liners become valuable again, like they were in the glory days, when a Maltby PK would bring the fans out of their seats. Make those guys valuable again.
Meanwhile, guys like Z and D have enough to worry about. Let them focus on five on five and the PP. It's a long season, and we don't need to wear them out before we even get to the playoffs.
* The goaltending has been atrocious. I am not writing anyone off, but Howard hasn't instilled confidence. And he needs to. And if Osgood decides to mail in the regular season like he did last year, he won't get the chance to redeem himself like he did last year.
I think Howard has about two weeks to start looking better.
The question, what if he fails? Does Detroit try Larsson? Or does Holland have Cloutier on speed dial?

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Old
10-03-2009, 09:50 PM
  #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yemack View Post
nicely put

although I thought our team played ok today.. except the goaltending part
You cant honestly sit here and say our team as a whole (ok minus the tender) played ok today. You just cant. After the first period we were pitaful. Every damn time we led after one the same team never came back after intermission. St.Louis took it to us, plain and simple.

They kept their feet moving and FINISHED CHECKS!!!!
-Bertuzzi finished 2 checks the entire game i think. Why the hell do we want a 6'4 teddy bear out there? If your going to have size, USE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A lack of passion was displayed throughout the game. No one kept moving. They were slower then molasis. Stuart was one of the only guys who from minute 1 to minute 60 played with intensity the entire game. We need more of this big time.

You cant come out there, score a few goals then sit back. You need to keep the foot on the pedal and go full steam ahead. Thats Detroit's problem. They get the lead then screw around the rest of the game and this is what happens. Our little tricks wont work anymore. You cant just get the lead and not press. Honestly, i cant wait till Helm comes back because we need more speed and intensity.


You can blame Howard, you can blame the PK but you cannot sit there and tell me with a straight face we played good, with passion and with intensity. You just cant.

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10-03-2009, 09:55 PM
  #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post

So you have a shaken up goaltender, an erratic defense trying to do too much, and an offense whos too concerned about entering the offensive zone to focus on all zones. Thats going to make any team look bad.
Dont sit there and try to use Howard as the excuse for why we lost. What happened to the wings offense in the second? 9-0 at one point in SOG and you cant sit there say it was from Howard because at that point he was just fine.

Listen, im a Howie fan, i really am. I wont defend him today, he was horrendous. But dont sit there and blame this entire game on the goaltending. Sure, he ****ed up for 2-3 goals but where the hell was the offense after the first period? They didnt start the second period well at all. The howard melt-down came later after the half-way point. Where the hell was the offense after Kronwall scored to make it 3-2? Where was your momentum then? Our players as a team were flat. Stretch it anyway you want, it was a team effort in the loss and Howie just helped it out even more.


Detroit had 4 pp's in the first period. AGAIN SCORING ON NONE OF THOSE. You can sit there and blame Howard for momentum but how about the Blues strong defensive play giving them some boost?

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10-04-2009, 07:15 AM
  #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
Detroit had 4 pp's in the first period. AGAIN SCORING ON NONE OF THOSE. You can sit there and blame Howard for momentum but how about the Blues strong defensive play giving them some boost?
this game should have been 4-0 after the 1st and then maybe it's possible to play sloppy like that. but once again they rested too early, gave the other team the momentum and were not able to get back to their game. i think i've seen this in 60-70 games last year. it's frustrating.
howard simply fit in the whole picture. and although it might be a bad excuse, but he almost fell asleep in the 1st period due to nothing to do. the first thing a wings goalie has to learn is that there are parts of the game where you won't have anything to do. you need to stay focused there. and that's btw why i doubt howard. i don't think he's pretty strong mentally, but that's something you need in detroit. but we'll see, maybe he learns it. the major blame has to be on the team and the inability to decide the game in the 1st.

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10-04-2009, 09:20 AM
  #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
You cant honestly sit here and say our team as a whole (ok minus the tender) played ok today. You just cant. After the first period we were pitaful. Every damn time we led after one the same team never came back after intermission. St.Louis took it to us, plain and simple.

They kept their feet moving and FINISHED CHECKS!!!!
-Bertuzzi finished 2 checks the entire game i think. Why the hell do we want a 6'4 teddy bear out there? If your going to have size, USE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A lack of passion was displayed throughout the game. No one kept moving. They were slower then molasis. Stuart was one of the only guys who from minute 1 to minute 60 played with intensity the entire game. We need more of this big time.

You cant come out there, score a few goals then sit back. You need to keep the foot on the pedal and go full steam ahead. Thats Detroit's problem. They get the lead then screw around the rest of the game and this is what happens. Our little tricks wont work anymore. You cant just get the lead and not press. Honestly, i cant wait till Helm comes back because we need more speed and intensity.


You can blame Howard, you can blame the PK but you cannot sit there and tell me with a straight face we played good, with passion and with intensity. You just cant.
well... uh... yes i can

Sure, the team didn't play like their lives depend on it but it was a regular season game and IMHO IF Howard stopped those two shots, the tide would have turn to our sides again and we coulda won.

why Blues played with so much confidence at later stage? and Wings didn't? I heard your reasons so here's mine.

1. Because they had the momentum (duh)
2. Because they thought they could score at will with Howard in net
3. Because Howard in net, our team could not play with much confidence.. they can say whatever they want, but everyone would have to agree that it would be a blatant lie if they didn't have a ounce of doubt about goaltending (which affected their performance - good goaltending -> good defence -> good offence -> domination)

4. ok maybe Wings are little burnt out from playoff still and could not and would not summon that deep urgency and passion. Still I think we coud have won that game if key saves were made.

5. I DO agree with some of you concerns that Wings tend to sit back... but that problem can be fix easiliy if we keep losing. Wings would have no choice but to play their arse off. However, goaltending problem can not be fixed so easiliy.

The blow was delivered when Howard let in those sofites. Wings probably didn't play 100% in the end but IMO they are not robots, just human and it was hard to play well in that situation.

Therefore, IMO, if you think anything other than Howard was the main reason we lost, I can not agree with you.

I'm not saying we have to dump Howard or fire Holland or anything... as it won't happen. I never had any confidence on Howard. It is just that my confidence are getting smaller. 1 game a too small sample size? sure but each and every game affects my opinon on him.

Don't worry Wings will probably go with Howard unless he bombs in epic proportion, so we will have plenty of chance to talk about this 'potential'.

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10-04-2009, 10:47 AM
  #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zecke26 View Post
this game should have been 4-0 after the 1st and then maybe it's possible to play sloppy like that. but once again they rested too early, gave the other team the momentum and were not able to get back to their game. i think i've seen this in 60-70 games last year. it's frustrating.
howard simply fit in the whole picture. and although it might be a bad excuse, but he almost fell asleep in the 1st period due to nothing to do. the first thing a wings goalie has to learn is that there are parts of the game where you won't have anything to do. you need to stay focused there. and that's btw why i doubt howard. i don't think he's pretty strong mentally, but that's something you need in detroit. but we'll see, maybe he learns it. the major blame has to be on the team and the inability to decide the game in the 1st.
Our offense failed big time in the first period and its disappointing. Regardless of the waved off call, it should not have affected them and our pp was just horrendous once again. It definitely is frustrating. You watch other teams who get the lead lately and they just keep pounding the opponent (Boston, Washington [yet they did let Toronto come back a little])

Howard has a lot of work ahead of him thats for damn sure. Rebound control, staying awake and focused as well as keeping bad goals out of his mind and closing them legs.

As you said, the team cannot come out and play for only 1 period, that wont work.

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10-04-2009, 10:53 AM
  #294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yemack View Post
well... uh... yes i can

...Long post...
I understand where your coming from, but you gotta play advocate once in a while

1. They had momentum, but dont you think they had more from the killed PK then really Howard's poor play? Before they scored their 2 goals they were outshooting detroit 9-0. You cant tell me that the first STL goal was the knife in the back.

2. They saw a rookie and took it to him. Most teams do and I was not shocked at how they played that situation. Just peppering him and it worked.

3. This should have been something that they figured our early. If you cant play with confidence in front of the goalie then ditch him. Wings always have problems adjusting to new goalies whether it was Hasek, Cujo, or whoever.

4. Im going to agree here. They looked slow and horrible. Pavel couldnt find his groove once, Hank should not have played at all and Bertuzzi needs to use his size. The list could go on for a while.

5. Your a little more optimistic then I am I guess. They always do this. They always sit back when they get an early lead and its annoying.


I am not excusing Howard for those ****** goals, but I am also not excusing the team for playing 20 minutes then quitting for the most part. Special teams thus far has been a huge non-factor that needs to be fixed.

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10-04-2009, 01:27 PM
  #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
I understand where your coming from, but you gotta play advocate once in a while

1. They had momentum, but dont you think they had more from the killed PK then really Howard's poor play? Before they scored their 2 goals they were outshooting detroit 9-0. You cant tell me that the first STL goal was the knife in the back.

2. They saw a rookie and took it to him. Most teams do and I was not shocked at how they played that situation. Just peppering him and it worked.

3. This should have been something that they figured our early. If you cant play with confidence in front of the goalie then ditch him. Wings always have problems adjusting to new goalies whether it was Hasek, Cujo, or whoever.

4. Im going to agree here. They looked slow and horrible. Pavel couldnt find his groove once, Hank should not have played at all and Bertuzzi needs to use his size. The list could go on for a while.

5. Your a little more optimistic then I am I guess. They always do this. They always sit back when they get an early lead and its annoying.


I am not excusing Howard for those ****** goals, but I am also not excusing the team for playing 20 minutes then quitting for the most part. Special teams thus far has been a huge non-factor that needs to be fixed.
How did they sit back when the got the goal? AFTER the Wings were up 2-0, and AFTER the goal was called off, they were STILL coming after the Blues.

Let's review:

1. Where did Leino get the penalty? In the OFFENSIVE zone, while he was BATTLING with Backes for the puck. And in my opinion, it was a weak penalty to begin with.

2. Where did Maltby get the penalty? On the penalty kill while he was going PHYSICAL after Kariya.

They were still attacking the Blues up until the penalties. And even through the first 1 minute of the 5 on 3, they were attacking.

When did they begin to slack off? After they killed off a 5 on 3, only to get scored on 4 on 5. That was the first slap in the face. Not to mention, the goal came as the period was ending. Not exactly prime time to get the momentum back. Then the 2nd goal came 3 minutes into the period, again on the PK. And after that, they DID rebound, only to take the lead and have it given up with TWO soft goals from Howard.

Take this into consideration: After Detroit scored the goal to go ahead 3-2, it took St. Louis FIVE minutes to record a shot on net. And their next shot after our 3rd goal came seven minutes after our goal was scored. Where did that shot end up? In the net. And their 3rd shot after we scored the goal? In the net.

Personally, I wouldn't call allowing 2 shots in 7 minutes after taking a lead "sitting back". But what I would call the sequence of events that ensued after St. Louis scored their 3rd and 4th goals "deflating."

Call it what you will, but the Wings are as pissed off as we are about their piss poor penalty kill and goaltending. And as Bowman always said, your best PKer needs to be your goalie.

I can guarantee you that, despite the fact that the Wings only had 11 giveaways last night, compared to the Blues 13, the Blues aren't over at their forum *****ing left and right about their defense. Why? Because the defense looks bad when pucks go in the net, and everyone forgets about the errors when the goalie makes the stop. The "defense" being so bad, and the Red Wings "slacking" is more perception than reality.

But I suppose, as the saying goes, your perception is your reality...

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10-04-2009, 01:51 PM
  #296
Yemack
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A heated discussion about our goalie like this reminds me that the season has started.

Anyway I don't think we played that badly. I just did a quick check and we allowed 32 shots yesterday and we managed 33 shots. If we expect our team to dominate every game and play defense that thwarts every high scoring chance from the other teams ... you are asking for impossible.

It was a very winnable game if our goaltending held up.

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10-04-2009, 02:21 PM
  #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zecke26 View Post
this game should have been 4-0 after the 1st and then maybe it's possible to play sloppy like that. but once again they rested too early, gave the other team the momentum and were not able to get back to their game. i think i've seen this in 60-70 games last year. it's frustrating.
howard simply fit in the whole picture. and although it might be a bad excuse, but he almost fell asleep in the 1st period due to nothing to do. the first thing a wings goalie has to learn is that there are parts of the game where you won't have anything to do. you need to stay focused there. and that's btw why i doubt howard. i don't think he's pretty strong mentally, but that's something you need in detroit. but we'll see, maybe he learns it. the major blame has to be on the team and the inability to decide the game in the 1st.
That is the problem the Wings goalies experience and they all look bad, Osgood, Hasek, Joseph, ........ Howard, the Wings can easily make them look bad.
We lost the Cup last season because of our special units and those 2 games vs the Blues due to the same reason. Nothing new. You could not tell which of the PP or the PK unit were worst.

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10-04-2009, 02:47 PM
  #298
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We could sit here and go in circles so its pointless to continue on.

Injury reports:

Quote:
Freep.com

Fellow defenseman Brett Lebda was crushed into the boards by Keith Tkachuk late in the second and spent the rest of the game on the bench. Lebda said he was fine, and Babcock said, "I think he's fine."
idk if anyone cares but atleast Meech doesnt have to go in and having a few days rest between games should help.

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10-04-2009, 04:46 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post

1. Where did Leino get the penalty? In the OFFENSIVE zone, while he was BATTLING with Backes for the puck. And in my opinion, it was a weak penalty to begin with.
..
It wasn't weak, you're just seeing things in red & white.

It was a legit penalty.

Maltbys wasn't though, that was a weak penalty.

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10-04-2009, 07:01 PM
  #300
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yep, Maltby took a retarded penalty...no reason to do that

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