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John Tavares Evaluation Thread

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Old
11-08-2009, 03:49 PM
  #101
cjdv16
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Every part of this kid's game is better than advertised. Plain and simple.

1. face offs
2. passing
3. sniping
4. play down low
5. play along the boards
6. strength
7. cerebral-"ness"
8. skating
9. ability to represent the game/team
10. classiness

This kid is going to be a star. Who cares if he ever reaches "elite" or "generational". The kid's phenomenal.

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11-08-2009, 03:53 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by cjdv16 View Post
Who cares if he ever reaches "elite" or "generational". The kid's phenomenal.
I agree.

I do not agree that his skating is better than advertised. It is precisely (among other things) why he has never, and will never, be considered on the level of Crosby and the like.

But as you suggest, it doesn't matter. What matters is if he is a major contributor to a successful NYI team. Period.


Last edited by Trottier: 11-09-2009 at 01:39 AM.
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11-08-2009, 05:30 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Belarus View Post
What I don't like about Tavares is that he continually doing those weak cross ice passes that easily getting picked up by opposing players and yet I am to see him to adjust. He repeats them in almost every game. Oh and his speed is awful whatever you say. Anyway, as Hunter07 said he may never be on the level of those mentioned franchise players, but for us, the New York Islanders, he is franchise player.
He has all of 14 NHL games of experience.
He is a smart kid, and he will stop those forced passes because he will see they are low percentage.

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11-09-2009, 06:50 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by mm11 View Post
MSV: I have to disagree with you about JT: Have you watched the kid play this year?

Yup... I watched JT a lot this year... He just does not have thatr extra gear that the great NHL skaters have... I still think JT was born the be a hockey player so I can't really complain about his skating.. He just has to get it done a different way..


and also what the heck is a Canadian mentality? do you mean North American mentality?
Have a cream soda and relax!!... What I meant was it looks like JT just thinks and breathes hockey.. This is Canada's sport... He plays the game hard going to the high traffic areas.. No one needs to teach JT this...

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11-09-2009, 07:13 AM
  #105
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IMO, I don't think there is anything more we could ask of JT so far in this season. He's putting up points, not just goals, but assists as well (very nice one's i might at), he's working hard in the corners and winning battles, faceoffs for a 19 year old have been good...even in the D zone he's been pretty responsible.

I'm very very impressed with JT so far and I don't see how anyone can really come down on this kid at all yet. Sure he's not Crosby or AO, but he's showing some real promise and is extremely noticeable almost every shift...remember he's 19, this is a great start for us and JT!!

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11-09-2009, 07:29 AM
  #106
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We fans should be ecstatic if, numberwise, Okposo can be a Shane Doan type and Tavares a Pierre Turgeon type.

Definitely our bluechippers, but we're a long way from finding out what their ceilings are gonna be.

It'll be exciting getting to watch that process.

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11-09-2009, 10:14 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belarus View Post
What I don't like about Tavares is that he continually doing those weak cross ice passes that easily getting picked up by opposing players and yet I am to see him to adjust. He repeats them in almost every game. Oh and his speed is awful whatever you say. Anyway, as Hunter07 said he may never be on the level of those mentioned franchise players, but for us, the New York Islanders, he is franchise player.
Tavares will never have to be fast to be successful in this league, as you're seeing. Every other aspect of his game, especially his awareness, is exceptional. Put some speed on his wings down the line to generate space for him and he will have a couple of 100 point seasons in his career. Either way, I have decent confidence he will at least be a PPG player for the majority of his career.

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11-09-2009, 12:03 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Isles4ever11 View Post
Tavares will never have to be fast to be successful in this league, as you're seeing. Every other aspect of his game, especially his awareness, is exceptional. Put some speed on his wings down the line to generate space for him and he will have a couple of 100 point seasons in his career. Either way, I have decent confidence he will at least be a PPG player for the majority of his career.
Exactly ! For Pete's sake, stat's wise, he's on pace for 63 points at this moment, and who's to say his pace won't pick up as he improves during the season ? All this from a slow skating weakling (please notice the sarcasm). He may never be a speed demon, but I use the example of Doug Weight or Adam Oates, they were never speed demons, and both scored 1000 points in the NHL. They also had several 100 point seasons between them. And some of those seasons were during the clutch and grab NHL era, which doesn't exist any more.

I am extremely thrilled with his play, I didn't expect him to be this good this fast. I think he's the type of player that has a burning desire to be great, and besides his skating, all his other talents are elite. I don't think anyone can deny he has great hands, a nose for the net (willingness to do whatever it takes to score), excellent hockey sense, and excellent vision. As far as I'm concerned, he has lived up to the hype, and in some cases exceeded them. Let's not forget folks, the Isles did NOTHING to improve this team besides draft Tavares and add Moulson, they are still a terrible team. Tavares doesn't have a Stastny, Hejduk, St Louis, Lecavalier, etc feeding him the puck like O'Reilly, Duschene & Stamkos do, he has career minor leaguer Moulson and 20 point a season Richard Park.

I'm not complaining, but just saying, the fact that Tavares is doing this well, with THIS team, is amazing. He could easily have 8-10 more points at this time if it wasn't for team mates not converting on good passes, and him hitting posts/getting stoned by great saves. IF he starts burying those chances he wasnt scoring on, watch out.

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Old
11-09-2009, 12:43 PM
  #109
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I'm amazed at his ability to create from almost nothing. The OT play when he beautifully assisted on Streit's goal was something special to watch. The puck was in his skates along the boards coming behind the goal with a Dman draped all over him. It looked like he was tied up but before you know it, a perfect pass primed for a quick one-timer. The way he gets the puck from his skates to his stick is uncanny and I marvel at it almost every game. This kid is truly something and I hope we have him for 10+ years.

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11-09-2009, 02:46 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Isles4ever11 View Post
Tavares will never have to be fast to be successful in this league, as you're seeing. Every other aspect of his game, especially his awareness, is exceptional. Put some speed on his wings down the line to generate space for him and he will have a couple of 100 point seasons in his career. Either way, I have decent confidence he will at least be a PPG player for the majority of his career.
Will he be a major part of a winning team?

I ask that only half-jokingly and it has little to do with JT. Has to do with the observation of how everyone on this thread seemingly will judge the player's success based solely on his personal stats.

I guess I'm weird. When CIsles suggested above that NYI fans should hope that JT becomes Turgeon and Okposo becomes Doan, I was prepared to write "spot on!" and his perspective, is in fact very solid. Only issue I have is that I want JT, unlike Turgeon, to lead a team to success. A Cup. He can come up with less points than Adam Oates and Turgeon, but if he is the #1 center on a Cup winner, mission accomplished. At least for this fan. Likewise, he can outscore both of them career wise and if the team doesn't win, big ****ing deal.

As for speed: sorry, I see Joe Thornton regular season vs. postseason, when the pace quickens. Speed matters...and it is a differentiator. Except among a few NYI fans...still. There are other examples.

That is not to suggest that I do not think JT can succeed down the road in the postseason, or that I consider him slow. But to pass off speed/quickness, or to make light of it as another poster did, is misguided, IMO. One only has to watch the playoffs to make that distinction. (Your point about adding speed to his line down the road, as I have suggested as well, makes perfect sense.)

This point about speed trancends JT, so I hope it is not misinterpreted as a slight against him. I am confident JT will evolve into a highly productive NHLer for the record, so no one should go there.


Last edited by Trottier: 11-09-2009 at 02:56 PM.
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Old
11-09-2009, 03:14 PM
  #111
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This point about speed trancends JT, so I hope it is not misinterpreted as a slight against him. I am confident JT will evolve into a highly productive NHLer for the record, so no one should go there.
although is does transcend JT, it's fair to point out that all you can ask of any ONE player is effort. The willingness to compete and the will to win is all any single player can do....to a large extent, a team's success has far too many dependencies to isolate any single player.

Having said that, Tavares is not Park, the expectations of a #1 overall pick and your #1 center are a tad higher than the supporting cast - as with Joe Thornton as you pointed out. The potential impact to actual wins and losses is higher for JT than other forwards, but equally important in your defense core, your goalie, coach, GM and owner.

What drove me nuts about Yashin was that he didn't appear to compete as hard as I wanted him to, as the coaches (organization) expected him to. Lack of effort is condemnable, far more than lack of output (personal stats or wins/losses).

JT seems to have that compete level and he certainly has talent. Let's HOPE that the rest of the pieces (the CRITICAL pieces) come together before Tavares is 40.

I have seen nothing as yet to suggest the Isles have any more chance to succeed than anyone else. Once we have a commitment on a supporting cast, a fair budget and some upgrades on the roster, I'll just enjoy the ride, enjoy watching the improvement each passing game, week, season.

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Old
11-09-2009, 03:26 PM
  #112
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I have seen nothing as yet to suggest the Isles have any more chance to succeed than anyone else. Once we have a commitment on a supporting cast, a fair budget and some upgrades on the roster, I'll just enjoy the ride, enjoy watching the improvement each passing game, week, season.
I think that as isles fans we sometimes forget that having him doesn't mean success... If takes a crapload of factors. But he's a good start.

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11-09-2009, 03:57 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
As for speed: sorry, I see Joe Thornton regular season vs. postseason, when the pace quickens. Speed matters...and it is a differentiator. Except among a few NYI fans...still. There are other examples.

That is not to suggest that I do not think JT can succeed down the road in the postseason, or that I consider him slow. But to pass off speed/quickness, or to make light of it as another poster did, is misguided, IMO. One only has to watch the playoffs to make that distinction. (Your point about adding speed to his line down the road, as I have suggested as well, makes perfect sense.)
When you are talking about speed are you talking about physical speed or mental speed?

Without a doubt Tavares does not have great physical speed and never will. What I am looking for in him, when the time comes, is if he is able to control the tempo of a playoff game. It appears Tavares is an extremely smart/quick thinker when it comes to the game. In the offensive zone he really seems to know where to be at the right times. If he can control a playoff game and dictate the tempo, his foot speed won't be a detriment to him. Only time will tell if he has or can develop that ability....a lot of time at this rate

I don't see Thornton control a tempo of a full game in the playoffs. Of course he will control individual shifts, but there are plenty of times I feel Big Joe is just part of the game instead of the game coming from him. Crosby, IMO, is the best in the league right now at dictating how the game is played, especially in the playoffs.

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Old
11-09-2009, 04:03 PM
  #114
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I think he's got a long way to go in terms of gaining NHL level strength and improving his decision making, but he's obviously talented. Watching Duchene and Hedman play this year as well, I don't think the Isles could have made a bad pick.

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11-09-2009, 04:15 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Hunter07 View Post
When you are talking about speed are you talking about physical speed or mental speed?

Without a doubt Tavares does not have great physical speed and never will. What I am looking for in him, when the time comes, is if he is able to control the tempo of a playoff game. It appears Tavares is an extremely smart/quick thinker when it comes to the game. In the offensive zone he really seems to know where to be at the right times. If he can control a playoff game and dictate the tempo, his foot speed won't be a detriment to him. Only time will tell if he has or can develop that ability....a lot of time at this rate

I don't see Thornton control a tempo of a full game in the playoffs. Of course he will control individual shifts, but there are plenty of times I feel Big Joe is just part of the game instead of the game coming from him. Crosby, IMO, is the best in the league right now at dictating how the game is played, especially in the playoffs.
You must mean Malkin, because Crosby was missing in action in the Finals last year & is now missing in action since Malkin has been injured.

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11-09-2009, 04:19 PM
  #116
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You must mean Malkin, because Crosby was missing in action in the Finals last year & is now missing in action since Malkin has been injured.
I beg to differ on how Crosby has been playing lately. First, it is a long season, so don't judge too harshly during the first quarter. Second, I think Crosby is playing very well right now. His point total is not where you would want it to be, but everything I've read indicates he has been playing all around great hockey.

As for the finals, I thought Crosby played well. I know he played well before the finals and Malkin was struggling until the end of the Washington series, but I thought Crosby did a good job in the finals too.

Either way, based on watching both of them throughout their careers, I am sticking with my statement. Crosby is the best at dictating the pace of the game. I'll go down with that ship if I have to.

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11-09-2009, 04:24 PM
  #117
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You must mean Malkin, because Crosby was missing in action in the Finals last year & is now missing in action since Malkin has been injured.

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11-09-2009, 04:29 PM
  #118
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I beg to differ on how Crosby has been playing lately. First, it is a long season, so don't judge too harshly during the first quarter. Second, I think Crosby is playing very well right now. His point total is not where you would want it to be, but everything I've read indicates he has been playing all around great hockey.

As for the finals, I thought Crosby played well. I know he played well before the finals and Malkin was struggling until the end of the Washington series, but I thought Crosby did a good job in the finals too.

Either way, based on watching both of them throughout their careers, I am sticking with my statement. Crosby is the best at dictating the pace of the game. I'll go down with that ship if I have to.
No, you are clearly overrating Crosby & underrating Malkin. Crosby was like out 15 or so games with an injury last season & the Pens went on a winning streak with Malkin being main guy. Now Malkin goes down this season, and Crosby is pointless in his last 4 games with a record of 1-3. Crosby is good, but he controls nothing without Malkin. The day Malkin came to the Pens is the day they became winners. Crosby scored a 100 points in his rookie season but his team was a bottom feeder. Malkin comes a year later & they are contenders.

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11-09-2009, 04:32 PM
  #119
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PLease explain, and tell me again who was MVP in the playoffs last year & was 2nd to Ovechkin with the Hart? Typical Canadiens who think that their boy is better than that Russian crap.

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11-09-2009, 04:49 PM
  #120
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No, you are clearly overrating Crosby & underrating Malkin. Crosby was like out 15 or so games with an injury last season & the Pens went on a winning streak with Malkin being main guy. Now Malkin goes down this season, and Crosby is pointless in his last 4 games with a record of 1-3. Crosby is good, but he controls nothing without Malkin. The day Malkin came to the Pens is the day they became winners. Crosby scored a 100 points in his rookie season but his team was a bottom feeder. Malkin comes a year later & they are contenders.
I don't think I am underrating Malkin. In-fact I've barely said anything about him so I am not sure how you are judging my ratings of him. If you are making assumptions based on my Crosby post, please don't look at it as a slight against Malkin. I think the world of him as a hockey player.

As for the Pens, I'll tell ya who they are missing more than Malkin, Gonchar. When ever Gonchar goes down that team goes to ****. He is the key piece that really keeps the defense together IMO. He aged like a bottle of wine, the more he aged the better PLAYER he has become.

Who the Pens rely on is a totally different topic though, I think this one was about Tavares. Sorry for derailing the convo Mods.

4cups, if you want to continue the Pitts debate shoot me a PM. I'll be studying Tax Accounting II until 10-11ish, so I'll be here.

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11-09-2009, 04:52 PM
  #121
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John Tavares is totally bad ass! Go tavares! He'll be a great player throughout his career. =)

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11-09-2009, 04:54 PM
  #122
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I don't think I am underrating Malkin. In-fact I've barely said anything about him so I am not sure how you are judging my ratings of him. If you are making assumptions based on my Crosby post, please don't look at it as a slight against Malkin. I think the world of him as a hockey player.

As for the Pens, I'll tell ya who they are missing more than Malkin, Gonchar. When ever Gonchar goes down that team goes to ****. He is the key piece that really keeps the defense together IMO. He aged like a bottle of wine, the more he aged the better PLAYER he has become.

Who the Pens rely on is a totally different topic though, I think this one was about Tavares. Sorry for derailing the convo Mods.

4cups, if you want to continue the Pitts debate shoot me a PM. I'll be studying Tax Accounting II until 10-11ish, so I'll be here.
I think Gonchar was also out when Crosby went down last season too. There is no doubt that Malkin is the main man on that team & the league finally realized that last season. Malkin is like Jagr with more passion. In the Finals last year, that series turned when Malkin dropped his gloves & went after Zetterberg. Crosby is PP point eater & a great assists guys, but on his own, he is containable. Malkin on the other hand is just a freaken load. Next to Ovechkin, Malkin is unstoppable.

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11-09-2009, 04:58 PM
  #123
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I don't think I am underrating Malkin. In-fact I've barely said anything about him so I am not sure how you are judging my ratings of him. If you are making assumptions based on my Crosby post, please don't look at it as a slight against Malkin. I think the world of him as a hockey player.

As for the Pens, I'll tell ya who they are missing more than Malkin, Gonchar. When ever Gonchar goes down that team goes to ****. He is the key piece that really keeps the defense together IMO. He aged like a bottle of wine, the more he aged the better PLAYER he has become.

Who the Pens rely on is a totally different topic though, I think this one was about Tavares. Sorry for derailing the convo Mods.

4cups, if you want to continue the Pitts debate shoot me a PM. I'll be studying Tax Accounting II until 10-11ish, so I'll be here.
Dude, your still in school? Man I envy you!! I miss those day when I went to PACE University in Manhattan. BTW, I was at the 1st World Trade Center bombing. I was one of six people waiting at the Path Train when that bomb went off at 12:06PM.

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11-09-2009, 05:16 PM
  #124
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He'll never be a speedster, but with reports that JT strives to be the best he can I can't help to imagine that he will put a lot of time into his skating the next few summers.

If he could become a step or two quicker he will be able to create separation, and more of those little one-on-one moves that worked in Jr's may start clicking in the NHL; as a result, he could become more dynamic.

Place a premium on skating.

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11-09-2009, 05:39 PM
  #125
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Not worth your time LG. Some people see what they want to see. Contrary to all evidence.

Look long enough, you'll find someone who will argue that water is not wet and today is not Monday, November 9th, 2009.

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