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Old
10-05-2009, 08:18 AM
  #51
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Howard got off to a rough start, and his numbers at GR were never jaw dropping, but they were solid. Some teams just get off to crappy starts and having to play halfway around the world doesn't help matters.

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10-05-2009, 09:34 AM
  #52
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Furthermore, IF it becomes an issue, the chickens will come home to roost for the decisions made by the team. Ozzie cannot be counted on to play more than 50 or so games per season. Conklin was a very reasonably priced back-up. And since Ozzie was over 35 when he signed, we have him for this year and next year.

Howard has to work out, or this team is screwed big time. (No, Cloutier is not the answer.)

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10-05-2009, 10:12 AM
  #53
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Two bad goals no doubt, but I am more concerned with getting physically dominated in every area of the ice.

Thats where these games were won and lost. St Louis kicked the Wings teeth in physically, forwards and defensemen alike.

Until thats addressed or our PP starts making them pay (which is something I dont really believe in anyway), this is going to be a long season in a physically dominant Western conference.

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10-05-2009, 10:25 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Furthermore, IF it becomes an issue, the chickens will come home to roost for the decisions made by the team. Ozzie cannot be counted on to play more than 50 or so games per season. Conklin was a very reasonably priced back-up. And since Ozzie was over 35 when he signed, we have him for this year and next year.

Howard has to work out, or this team is screwed big time. (No, Cloutier is not the answer.)
McCollum is, but 2009/10 is not his time.

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10-05-2009, 10:38 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Furthermore, IF it becomes an issue, the chickens will come home to roost for the decisions made by the team. Ozzie cannot be counted on to play more than 50 or so games per season. Conklin was a very reasonably priced back-up. And since Ozzie was over 35 when he signed, we have him for this year and next year.

Howard has to work out, or this team is screwed big time. (No, Cloutier is not the answer.)
You have to go with the kid sooner or later, though. Unfortunately we don't have the cushion we have at forward and defense where we can work a guy in around a bunch of other guys and sorta protect him. The goalie is left out there alone and it's just a chance the organization has to eventually take.

But I also think that if goalie appears to be a problem late in the season, again, the Wings will explore significant moves (such as moving Flip or Kronwall).

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10-05-2009, 10:50 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
Some people are just epics...

Its one stupid game and they are in panic mode over howard.

OMG HOWARD EEEEEK...

Chill, relax and have a smoke or a beer. Lets panic in November or December, not his first full month as offical back up. Christ. Chill the hell out.
couldnt agree more....

we are talking about a team that has played TWO GAMES and Howard only played one. Howard definately shows flashes of brilliance, and being a long time tender myself i can tell you this kid definately is talented. that glover he made against fbk was beautiful, and imo i think if this kid gets some confidence we will see a lot more of that.

one thing i really dont understand is how people can watch ozzie **** the bed for a whole season, criticize/ridicule him boo him, then watch him get his game going in the playoffs (almost overnight) then you get the ozzie chants going. detroit fans are harsh on goalies, and trust me it is not an easy position to play, you have to have very thick skin especially in this city.

give howard 10/15 games, the kid deserves a chance, and then if we dont like what we see, i'll meet ya back on here.

we should offer a trade for giggy.... hes a 5 million dollar back-up right now, could look good in a wings uni, guy could use a fresh start after last season.

he has a ntc anyways, just wishful thinking...

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10-05-2009, 11:27 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Furthermore, IF it becomes an issue, the chickens will come home to roost for the decisions made by the team. Ozzie cannot be counted on to play more than 50 or so games per season. Conklin was a very reasonably priced back-up. And since Ozzie was over 35 when he signed, we have him for this year and next year.

Howard has to work out, or this team is screwed big time. (No, Cloutier is not the answer.)
I agree completely that Cloutier was not going to help this team in a meaningful way, and you are of course correct that Holland gambled in net. He's been doing it since the lockout and the only season he got burned was 2005-06. I personally don't care for Kenny's "go cheap in net and spend on the D instead" philosophy, but that's what we've got. We have neither a top tier goaltender, nor a workhorse to carry the load. Holland is hoping that we've got two solid, but not spectacular, goalies and if we're fortunate then at least one of them will be playing well at any given moment. Ozzie is really only counted upon for the playoffs.

However, I think that between Larsson and McCollum we do have a little safety margin. If that was more than a one game blip for Howard and he begins to struggle or is wildly inconsistent, I believe the first thing Holland will do is bring up one of the goalies from GR. I think both of them played well enough in the preseason to make Holland feel comfortable that he does have a fallback plan. Between that and Howard's play, Holland was comfortable enough to release Cloutier. That was a significant development.

Holland is playing a bit of poker for sure, but he's not going to go all-in with a bluff. Even Babcock seemed confident that among the three prospect goalies in the system we'd be able to find one to backup Ozzie and meet our needs. Hopefully Howard is that goalie, but he's not going to get more than a couple of months to prove it if he falters.

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10-05-2009, 11:35 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
Howard got off to a rough start, and his numbers at GR were never jaw dropping, but they were solid. Some teams just get off to crappy starts and having to play halfway around the world doesn't help matters.
Exactly. Its been two games and people are calling for the tender's heads. I dont get why people just dont wait, give them all time to gain some chemistry before saying the world is ending.

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10-05-2009, 11:43 AM
  #59
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Exactly. Its been two games and people are calling for the tender's heads. I dont get why people just dont wait, give them all time to gain some chemistry before saying the world is ending.
It's not just 2 games! I've said since the 1st time I watched that he isn't NHL goalie! He hasn't been blowing away the AHL. The talent is better in the NHL so how does a average AHL goalie become an NHL goalie?

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10-05-2009, 12:12 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by yooper wings fan View Post
It's not just 2 games! I've said since the 1st time I watched that he isn't NHL goalie! He hasn't been blowing away the AHL. The talent is better in the NHL so how does a average AHL goalie become an NHL goalie?
I personally don't know, but I'll bet if you ask Tim Thomas he can tell you. His 2002-03 season in the AHL was worse than any of Howard's four seasons at that level. Thomas also had a brief stint in the AHL in 1998-99 that was a downright disaster.

Goalies can take a little longer to develop. Howard was a big game goalie in college and was decent to good during his seasons in the AHL. Last year he posted his best numbers as a pro, so he definitely showed signs of improving. It's pretty silly to write him off after two games and the few sips of coffee he previously experienced in the NHL.

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10-05-2009, 12:55 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by doublejack View Post
I personally don't know, but I'll bet if you ask Tim Thomas he can tell you. His 2002-03 season in the AHL was worse than any of Howard's four seasons at that level. Thomas also had a brief stint in the AHL in 1998-99 that was a downright disaster.

Goalies can take a little longer to develop. Howard was a big game goalie in college and was decent to good during his seasons in the AHL. Last year he posted his best numbers as a pro, so he definitely showed signs of improving. It's pretty silly to write him off after two games and the few sips of coffee he previously experienced in the NHL.
Do we have to wait 7 more years for him to develope into a Tim Thomas? I think TT is 32 years old.

NHL players do play in college. Jim Craig played goal in college and won a gold medal and couldn't cut it in the NHL.

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10-05-2009, 12:59 PM
  #62
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Howard has played 7 games for us..... he has sucked in all of them. Yes, it is okay to panic. Our goalie situation is our liability and Howard has done NOTHING his entire time here to merit being a backup goalie.

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10-05-2009, 01:09 PM
  #63
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In 05/06 Howard saw four games with the wings and posted a .906 sv% and 2.99 gaa.
In 07/08 Howard saw four games with the wings and posted a .926 sv% and 2.04 gaa.

He bombed in a one game callup last year and he had a poor first game this season. But, over his career, he's put up some solid numbers for us when called upon.

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10-05-2009, 01:16 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
In 05/06 Howard saw four games with the wings and posted a .906 sv% and 2.99 gaa.
In 07/08 Howard saw four games with the wings and posted a .926 sv% and 2.04 gaa.

He bombed in a one game callup last year and he had a poor first game this season. But, over his career, he's put up some solid numbers for us when called upon.


Has he won an NHL game yet? He needed to come up big on Saturday and he didn't. 2 very soft goals.

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10-05-2009, 01:35 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by yooper wings fan View Post
Has he won an NHL game yet? He needed to come up big on Saturday and he didn't. 2 very soft goals.
He won one in 05/06. Over the course of those two years he went 1-4 while appearing in 8 games. But, considering his sv% and gaa during those two stints, I'm not sure you can just look at win/loss and conclude that Howard sucked - which is where I'm seeing a problem with some opinions of Howard's play.

If the expectations of Howard is for him to be the next Brodeur or Roy, sure, he's fallen way short of them. But, over the majority of his NHL (and AHL) tenure, I see stats that say he's done a fairly good job. Not great, not record breaking, but good. Does that mean he'll excel in Detroit? Of course not. He might just not hack it up here. But to paint him as a goalie who has had a long record of poor play is inaccurate.

right now, he's gotten off to a poor start. The entire team has gotten off to a poor start. It's far too early to call for anyone's head or to come to any definitive conclusion about how any particular guy will fare over the long haul of the season.

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10-05-2009, 01:38 PM
  #66
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Has he won an NHL game yet? He needed to come up big on Saturday and he didn't. 2 very soft goals.
You keep giving indications that you don't know what you're talking about on the subject of Howard.

Howard won his NHL debut, a 5 - 2 game against the LA Kings. One of the goals against him was on a penalty shot, and he took a shutout into the third period.

In Howard's second NHL game he played Calgary, with the Wings falling short in a 3 - 2 game. Howard also faced a penalty shot in that game, in the final minutes of the third period, but that one didn't get converted.

Neither Osgood nor Howard played well in Sweden, but the way the team started out quickly in both games and then went flat tells me that the blame doesn't fall on just the goaltending. Writing Howard off this early is absurd.

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10-05-2009, 02:46 PM
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You keep giving indications that you don't know what you're talking about on the subject of Howard.

Howard won his NHL debut, a 5 - 2 game against the LA Kings. One of the goals against him was on a penalty shot, and he took a shutout into the third period.

In Howard's second NHL game he played Calgary, with the Wings falling short in a 3 - 2 game. Howard also faced a penalty shot in that game, in the final minutes of the third period, but that one didn't get converted.

Neither Osgood nor Howard played well in Sweden, but the way the team started out quickly in both games and then went flat tells me that the blame doesn't fall on just the goaltending. Writing Howard off this early is absurd.
If he doesn't giveup the two softies, the Wings win on Saturday.

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10-05-2009, 03:04 PM
  #68
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Howard has played 7 games for us..... he has sucked in all of them. Yes, it is okay to panic. Our goalie situation is our liability and Howard has done NOTHING his entire time here to merit being a backup goalie.
howard was called into play when liddy was injured in 08 and the team looked like mini mites and howard kept a few games like 2-1 when they should of been 10-1.

give the kid a chance, and if he doesn't work out you guys know we can trust kenny to do whats right for the team.

to be honest with you i dont think our goaltending is the real issue, but our loyalty to washed up players is. being loyal is great and all because guys like malts draps homer have been major contributors for some cup runs and shouldnt just have the door closed on them but ummmm they are brutal. we pay our role players WAY TOO MUCH money and if we just let em go we would be better off.

abs>malts
helm>draps
franzen>homer(love the guy on the pp but at even strength hes ugly to watch)

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10-05-2009, 03:18 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by DangleDangleBeach View Post
howard was called into play when liddy was injured in 08 and the team looked like mini mites and howard kept a few games like 2-1 when they should of been 10-1.

give the kid a chance, and if he doesn't work out you guys know we can trust kenny to do whats right for the team.

to be honest with you i dont think our goaltending is the real issue, but our loyalty to washed up players is. being loyal is great and all because guys like malts draps homer have been major contributors for some cup runs and shouldnt just have the door closed on them but ummmm they are brutal. we pay our role players WAY TOO MUCH money and if we just let em go we would be better off.

abs>malts
helm>draps
franzen>homer(love the guy on the pp but at even strength hes ugly to watch)
Howard WILL get his shot regardless of what anyone says here.

I don't think KH's royalty is the problem of our team. It's just the way our organization is built. Yeah, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesnt but I'm not about to criticize what most people say 'the best run organization in NHL'

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10-05-2009, 03:25 PM
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But I also think that if goalie appears to be a problem late in the season, again, the Wings will explore significant moves (such as moving Flip or Kronwall).
IMO There is a danger to this 'wait till end of the year and see' approach.

This is the year where Wings goaltenders have to shine. Wings played back to back final 2 years in a row and to make matters worse there are the olympic games.

Considering all of that, we just can't ask Wings to play on top of their game for 60 min for 82 games this season. They are playing against real pros and it will wear them down if they aren't burnt out already.

Being more assertive? sure I think that's the key to solve many of Wings problems including PP but Bottom line is that the goalies have to perform this season if our team wants to go deep into the post season. If Ozzie can't bring himself up and Howard fails, the consequence may be more severe than last year.

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10-05-2009, 03:33 PM
  #71
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Furthermore, IF it becomes an issue, the chickens will come home to roost for the decisions made by the team. Ozzie cannot be counted on to play more than 50 or so games per season. Conklin was a very reasonably priced back-up. And since Ozzie was over 35 when he signed, we have him for this year and next year.

Howard has to work out, or this team is screwed big time. (No, Cloutier is not the answer.)
Cloutier may not be the answer, but Fernandez is also a UFA. Biron (1.4) is cheap in NYI and could easily be had in a few months. Ellis (1.7) could be had at the midpoint as well - Nashville already gave away a goaltender to a division rival. Clemmenson could be a serviceable backup at 1.2M. And if the Wings scouts like what they see, the Wings can make a play for Harding (1.1), Halak (775k), or even Pavelec (1.4), depending on how their showing goes.

The Wings have options. Are any of them available immediately? Absolutely not, but the Wings aren't going to dump Howard after a week or two anyway, no matter how bad he does. If hes really giving up goals every game like he did on Sunday, then the Wings will ride Osgood as much as they can until a deal can be made, and even in that interim, they'll test out Larsson.

Just like I think Babcock is splitting up Hank and Datsyuk because he doesn't have faith in Filppula carrying an offensive line, I think Holland and co. are keeping Howard simply because hes an optimal stop-gap until the trade deadline, when higher salaries are pro-rated.

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10-05-2009, 04:04 PM
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Cloutier may not be the answer, but Fernandez is also a UFA. Biron (1.4) is cheap in NYI and could easily be had in a few months. Ellis (1.7) could be had at the midpoint as well - Nashville already gave away a goaltender to a division rival. Clemmenson could be a serviceable backup at 1.2M. And if the Wings scouts like what they see, the Wings can make a play for Harding (1.1), Halak (775k), or even Pavelec (1.4), depending on how their showing goes.

The Wings have options. Are any of them available immediately? Absolutely not, but the Wings aren't going to dump Howard after a week or two anyway, no matter how bad he does. If hes really giving up goals every game like he did on Sunday, then the Wings will ride Osgood as much as they can until a deal can be made, and even in that interim, they'll test out Larsson.

Just like I think Babcock is splitting up Hank and Datsyuk because he doesn't have faith in Filppula carrying an offensive line, I think Holland and co. are keeping Howard simply because hes an optimal stop-gap until the trade deadline, when higher salaries are pro-rated.
I think another reason why Howard is staying with the DRW is he maybe out of options and they will lose him if he gets sent down?

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10-05-2009, 04:13 PM
  #73
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You have to go with the kid sooner or later, though. Unfortunately we don't have the cushion we have at forward and defense where we can work a guy in around a bunch of other guys and sorta protect him. The goalie is left out there alone and it's just a chance the organization has to eventually take.

But I also think that if goalie appears to be a problem late in the season, again, the Wings will explore significant moves (such as moving Flip or Kronwall).

Agreed. Except for the part about trading Kronwall. I don't think the Wings will deal him. Rafalski and Lidstrom are getting older by the day...can't see them taking the risk. Yes they have Kindl and Smith coming through the ranks, with plenty of puck-moving blueliners but none are proven at the level Kronwall is. Filpulla on the other hand, I could see traded. In fact, I'd welcome it depending on the return. Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Helm, 4th liner would still be solid up the middle without him.

Harding doesn't sound bad for Flip.

As far as the thread goes on the goaltending, I'd give it 15 games no matter who gets the starts. If it's still a problem, make a move.

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10-05-2009, 04:24 PM
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I think another reason why Howard is staying with the DRW is he maybe out of options and they will lose him if he gets sent down?
Thats definitely part of it. Hes cheap, hes out of waiver options, and he still could prove to be something.

But what I mean to say is that I think Holland and co. are prepared for Howard not to work out. They know he was inconsistent in the AHL, and they know Osgood is troubled, to say the least. If anyone thinks they're betting the farm on a Howard/Osgood tandem, they're delusional.

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10-05-2009, 04:34 PM
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Agreed. Except for the part about trading Kronwall. I don't think the Wings will deal him. Rafalski and Lidstrom are getting older by the day...can't see them taking the risk. Yes they have Kindl and Smith coming through the ranks, with plenty of puck-moving blueliners but none are proven at the level Kronwall is. Filpulla on the other hand, I could see traded. In fact, I'd welcome it depending on the return. Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Helm, 4th liner would still be solid up the middle without him.

Harding doesn't sound bad for Flip.

As far as the thread goes on the goaltending, I'd give it 15 games no matter who gets the starts. If it's still a problem, make a move.
This exact idea has been floating around my head. I think it says a lot that Filppula, at 25 years of age and in his 4th full season, is still centering a third line and not getting regular PP time. (Throughout the first two games, he ranks 8th among forwards in PPTOI). The Wings also have Hank, Datsyuk, Franzen, Abdelkader, Williams, Draper, and Helm who have all played center.

If Harding looks good to the Wings scouts, I'd welcome a trade of that nature. That would also give the Wings the cap space to trade for a 6th Dman at the deadline if Lilja doesn't return.

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