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Old
10-07-2009, 10:21 AM
  #101
HockeyinHD
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Originally Posted by yooper wings fan View Post
This funny! Everyone wants to give Howard a pass and blast Osgood after one game. We all must have short memories, wasn't this the same Osgood who took us to game 7 of SC finals. Osgood should be the one getting the pass he's already proven to be NHL goalie. IMO if the Wings won the cup last year Osgood would have been skating the Conn Smythe. Howard has had a mediocre AHL league career at best. There are at least 4 or 5 better options then Howard. Time to cut your loses with this guy.
I don't think you properly grasped the context of my comment.

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10-07-2009, 10:30 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
Dude, stop wasting your energy. These people dont get it and they will never get it. They think they can judge an NHLer based on previous (years of previous) starts and this one start. They all got crystal balls I guess.
I have said over and over again you cant base this **** on one game and why so many people fail to realize this its beyond me. Take away those two goals, where would these people be now? I understand they were two big goals but lets be honest here. Its a rookie in net, in sweden making his first offical start as the offical back-up after years in the AHL. The AHL argument that he never did **** is annoying because 90% of you never saw him in the AHL on a consistant basis. Just give it a rest, lighten up.

Listen, ill admit all of this ******** after 2-3 months, but after one game its just idiotic. Sorry, but it is.

...Now ill wait and see who spins what I said into 15 different things and tries to prove their case, but there is no need to prove anything. It was ONE game in a NEW SEASON. Just stop.
Look at these numbers:

200506
Grand Rapids Griffins AHL 2.58 .910
200607
Grand Rapids Griffins AHL 2.70 .911
200708
Grand Rapids Griffins AHL 2.83 .907
200809
Grand Rapids Griffins AHL 2.54 .916

Playoffs
200506 Grand Rapids Griffins AHL 3.46 .885
200607 Grand Rapids Griffins AHL 1.93

These are not great stats from AHL and now hes supposed to be great in the NHL. Best AHL GAA 2.54.

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10-07-2009, 10:59 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by yooper wings fan View Post
I'm not basing it on one game! It's based on his AHL/NHL career! Mediocre at best! If you're going to be a NHL goalie you have dominate in the AHL IMO. The only reason this guy is up with DRW is hes out of options.
Nah, I don't buy the AHL career carrying over. The make up of AHL teams can vary a heck of a lot more than the NHL team. Guys get moved around all the time, the coaching was an issue with the Griffs recently...

Is there really a problem with just letting the guy play some games, now that he's here? Let's sit back and see him in at least 5-10 games and then have some basis for judging.

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10-07-2009, 11:04 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by yooper wings fan View Post
Look at these numbers:

These are not great stats from AHL and now hes supposed to be great in the NHL. Best AHL GAA 2.54.
...And look at the team he had in front of him. Why dont you try looking at the entire situation regardless of what the stats show. Emery got lit up last night, as did Varlamov. Are they garbage? no.

Have you ever seen more then 1 griffin game? If you have, unless you got a hate for the guy, you would have seen how lowsy his defense was in front of him for majority of his starts. I went to one game where in the second period alone he saved three 2 on 1's. Does your stats tell you things like that?

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10-07-2009, 11:05 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Nah, I don't buy the AHL career carrying over. The make up of AHL teams can vary a heck of a lot more than the NHL team. Guys get moved around all the time, the coaching was an issue with the Griffs recently...

Is there really a problem with just letting the guy play some games, now that he's here? Let's sit back and see him in at least 5-10 games and then have some basis for judging.
When rookies are continuously your best defensemen, theres problems. No one fails to see the entire picture of the Griffins and when people comment and use that as an example and NEVER actually saw them play is just insane. Its a horrible argument.

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10-07-2009, 11:10 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Nah, I don't buy the AHL career carrying over. The make up of AHL teams can vary a heck of a lot more than the NHL team. Guys get moved around all the time, the coaching was an issue with the Griffs recently...

Is there really a problem with just letting the guy play some games, now that he's here? Let's sit back and see him in at least 5-10 games and then have some basis for judging.
well, we'd have far fewer posts...

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10-07-2009, 11:12 AM
  #107
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well, we'd have far fewer posts...

Nah, someone will gripe about Stuart, and I'd counter with Lilja, except he's on LTIR. [Edit: there's always a defenseman at fault, except Lids.] Then there's Meech. The new Sammy was supposed to be Williams, but maybe after being dismayed by Sammy for a couple of years, Williams looks better. Honestly, I was thinking after the first couple that he covers the ice really well.

Then, of course, there's always the Quincey thread.

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10-07-2009, 11:14 AM
  #108
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Hard to point to a guys AHL numbers and project that to the NHL. I mean you not only deal with your own injuries in the AHL, but your parent teams too. Look at the Griffins last season. They went from a pretty decent team to a shell pretty quickly when Ericsson, Helm, and Abdelkader were called up. Not to mention the Griffins haven't exactly been a powerhouse team lately.

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10-07-2009, 11:17 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by FissionFire View Post
Hard to point to a guys AHL numbers and project that to the NHL. I mean you not only deal with your own injuries in the AHL, but your parent teams too. Look at the Griffins last season. They went from a pretty decent team to a shell pretty quickly when Ericsson, Helm, and Abdelkader were called up. Not to mention the Griffins haven't exactly been a powerhouse team lately.
Is this what we have to look forward to?

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10-07-2009, 11:35 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
...And look at the team he had in front of him. Why dont you try looking at the entire situation regardless of what the stats show. Emery got lit up last night, as did Varlamov. Are they garbage? no.

Have you ever seen more then 1 griffin game? If you have, unless you got a hate for the guy, you would have seen how lowsy his defense was in front of him for majority of his starts. I went to one game where in the second period alone he saved three 2 on 1's. Does your stats tell you things like that?
Well I guess we (you to Fugu) will have to agree to disagree on this subject. I still think there were and are better options then Howard regardless of his performance last game.

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10-07-2009, 01:09 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Menace, it's not a semantic debate at all. For a number of valid reasons, much younger players are given more leeway than guys who are older. By calling Howard a 'kid', you are mislabeling him, and most likely giving him the benefit of the doubt that one normally extends to players who are actually kids, as opposed to 25 year old guys who've been knocking around the Wings system for 6 years.


"Seriously, give the kid a few months before you call for him to be stoned."



Of course I have. I just didn't know whether to not take your comment seriously because you're speaking in hyperbole, or to not take it seriously because it is wrong.



You mean, other than talking about giving Howard 'a few months'?
Jesus Christ on a stick, are you serious? How many games has he had in the NHL? This is his FIRST SEASON with the Red Wings. Yes, he's been in the organization, but wasting away in the AHL is NOT playing in the NHL.

At this point, if you could stop responding to my posts, that would be great.

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10-07-2009, 01:53 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
Dude, stop wasting your energy. These people dont get it and they will never get it. They think they can judge an NHLer based on previous (years of previous) starts and this one start. They all got crystal balls I guess.
And some people think that anything that happens anywhere but on NHL ice doesn't count. As though Jake McCracken could have been a legit NHL goalie, if only he had gotten 15-20 NHL starts.

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I have said over and over again you cant base this **** on one game and why so many people fail to realize this its beyond me.
I think your puzzlement nicely mirrors mine with people who don't grasp that after a guy has been in an organization for 6 years, he is what he is. There's not some sudden upside that magically appears just because he puts on a new jersey.

Oh, there's always a question with a lot of prospects when it comes to how their game will translate into the NHL... but with goalies it's a little different.

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10-07-2009, 01:58 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by RedMenace View Post
Jesus Christ on a stick, are you serious? How many games has he had in the NHL? This is his FIRST SEASON with the Red Wings. Yes, he's been in the organization, but wasting away in the AHL is NOT playing in the NHL.


Hey, let's bring up some random guy from the AHL every week, because since what happens in the AHL is in no way representative on what will happen in the NHL, hey, maybe Evan McGrath is the next Wayne Gretzky.

In other words, you don't just go from being a non-descript AHL player to suddenly becoming so much more at the next level. There is a correlation. There are always exceptions, of course, but they are called exceptions for a reason.

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At this point, if you could stop responding to my posts, that would be great.
Alternatively, you could just stop posting. Then I wouldn't be able to.

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10-07-2009, 02:24 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post


Hey, let's bring up some random guy from the AHL every week, because since what happens in the AHL is in no way representative on what will happen in the NHL, hey, maybe Evan McGrath is the next Wayne Gretzky.

In other words, you don't just go from being a non-descript AHL player to suddenly becoming so much more at the next level. There is a correlation. There are always exceptions, of course, but they are called exceptions for a reason.
Except, you know, random AHLers haven't been in the Wings system for half a decade. The AHL does not directly translate to the NHL, for better or worse. If you can't understand that, then I can't help you.

Besides, how do you know Howard isn't an exception? One game into his full-time NHL career is enough to base your judgment on?

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Alternatively, you could just stop posting. Then I wouldn't be able to.
Wow, really? That was pretty uncalled for. I ask you nicely to refrain from commenting on my posts, and this is what you come back with?


Last edited by RedMenace: 10-07-2009 at 02:37 PM.
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10-07-2009, 02:42 PM
  #115
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It's pretty easy to add a user to your ignore list. Just sayin'....

Now let's get back to the topic, which is not supposed to be your fellow posters.

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10-07-2009, 02:45 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by RedMenace View Post
Except, you know, random AHLers haven't been in the Wings system for half a decade. The AHL does not directly translate to the NHL, for better or worse. If you can't understand that, then I can't help you.

Besides, how do you know Howard isn't an exception? One game into his full-time NHL career is enough to base your judgment on?



Wow, really? That was pretty uncalled for. I ask you nicely to refrain from commenting on my posts, and this is what you come back with?
As much as HD and I usually disagree, I have to point out that HD is not saying that there is a direct translation. The point is that Howard's past game performance is much more likely to be a representation of his NHL capabilities based on his AHL performance than it is a fluke. There is nothing wrong with looking at 7 NHL starts, 9 NHL features, and 4 seasons in the AHL and saying "this guy isn't going to be an NHL calibre goalie".

If anything, basing you're opinion that Howard can be an NHL quality back-up or goaltender in general on, well, potentialities, is much more illogical.


With that said, Howard will get his chances, and he should. Whether we agree on how many chances he gets is another story.

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10-07-2009, 02:49 PM
  #117
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As much as HD and I usually disagree, I have to point out that HD is not saying that there is a direct translation. The point is that Howard's past game performance is much more likely to be a representation of his NHL capabilities based on his AHL performance than it is a fluke. There is nothing wrong with looking at 7 NHL starts, 9 NHL features, and 4 seasons in the AHL and saying "this guy isn't going to be an NHL calibre goalie".

If anything, basing you're opinion that Howard can be an NHL quality back-up or goaltender in general on, well, potentialities, is much more illogical.


With that said, Howard will get his chances, and he should. Whether we agree on how many chances he gets is another story.
I never said he WOULD be an NHL-quality netminder... why does everyone keep putting words into mouths? The only thing I said was give the kid/guy/scapegoat a chance before you throw him into the team's jet's engines.

There's a huge difference between opinion and fact, and the assertion that he's an automatic failure is OPINION -- unless someone has a crystal ball, incredible foresight, or other various fortune-telling abilities...

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10-07-2009, 03:09 PM
  #118
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There's a huge difference between opinion and fact, and the assertion that he's an automatic failure is OPINION -- unless someone has a crystal ball, incredible foresight, or other various fortune-telling abilities...
Come on Red Menace, you've been around long enough to know that that's what this place is for.

A bunch of fan talking about their team the sports like we actually know some stuffs. This isn't a science forum only accepting factual information.

It's all opinion and you shouldnt get too worked up over it.

Unless someone directly points a finger at you and say you are dumb. As you know, that happens quite frequently too.

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10-07-2009, 03:10 PM
  #119
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I'd say I'm surprised that people are writing Howard off already, only I'd be lying. Never mind that Holland thinks enough of him to trust him with the backup job (at least for now). Never mind that goalies, like defensemen, can sometimes take longer to develop. Never mind that Howard has shown some fairly consistent improvement over his four AHL seasons (his worst season, 2007-08 was a time GR had a young and inexperienced team, particularly on defense).

It's so obvious, as it has been since the day he was drafted. Howard just isn't an NHL goaltender

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10-07-2009, 03:15 PM
  #120
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Unless someone directly points a finger at you and say you are dumb. As you know, that happens quite frequently too.
And that's precisely the part that irritates me.

I don't mind people thinking they know everything, it's just the manner in which it's presented. If you *know* Howard will be a bust, fine. Just don't call people idiots and say other, more interesting yet subtle things to belittle them when they disagree with your *facts.*


Last edited by RedMenace: 10-07-2009 at 03:27 PM.
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10-07-2009, 05:02 PM
  #121
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Hopefully for the sake of the team, Howard won't have that long of a leash to show whether or not he can hack it as the backup. If it turns out that he can actually be a decent backup on this team, then I won't have anything further to say about him looking as bad as he did in that game. But if not, then I hope a move is made for Larsson or McCollum to play a few games and see if either of them are capable of holding the backup job here.

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10-07-2009, 05:30 PM
  #122
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Hopefully for the sake of the team, Howard won't have that long of a leash to show whether or not he can hack it as the backup. If it turns out that he can actually be a decent backup on this team, then I won't have anything further to say about him looking as bad as he did in that game. But if not, then I hope a move is made for Larsson or McCollum to play a few games and see if either of them are capable of holding the backup job here.
I'd like to see what Larsson can do, honestly.

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10-07-2009, 06:42 PM
  #123
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I'd like to see what Larsson can do, honestly.
Certainly wouldn't be any more of a risk than Howard playing at this point. Larsson should get a shot if Howard can't perform after however many games he has to prove himself. How did Larsson do in TC anyway?

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10-07-2009, 10:54 PM
  #124
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Well I guess we (you to Fugu) will have to agree to disagree on this subject. I still think there were and are better options then Howard regardless of his performance last game.
Honestly, why are you judging him based on one NHL game performance? How many AHLers have had average career down there and emerge? Did you ever stop to think that maybe, just maybe, the team down there SUCKED?

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10-07-2009, 10:55 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by RedMenace View Post
I'd like to see what Larsson can do, honestly.
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Originally Posted by DTownWingsfan View Post
Certainly wouldn't be any more of a risk than Howard playing at this point. Larsson should get a shot if Howard can't perform after however many games he has to prove himself. How did Larsson do in TC anyway?
I cant wait till he comes up and you are all in for a rude awakening. I saw my fair share of AHL games and his numbers are over-exaggerated.

No where in here will I say Howard > Larsson or Larrson> Howard but please for the love of god dont base your prognosis on numbers. That kid is extremely skilled but so, so, so raw its insane. He shows you brilliance one minute then the next he lets in something that makes you go "what happaned there?"...

Each goalie, Howard and Larsson, have their flaws.

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I never said he WOULD be an NHL-quality netminder... why does everyone keep putting words into mouths? The only thing I said was give the kid/guy/scapegoat a chance before you throw him into the team's jet's engines.

There's a huge difference between opinion and fact, and the assertion that he's an automatic failure is OPINION -- unless someone has a crystal ball, incredible foresight, or other various fortune-telling abilities...
Look at the board your on. Your talking to people who want Howard's arse on a platter for one game.

Mod: deleted.


Last edited by Fugu: 10-07-2009 at 11:57 PM. Reason: can't post that, sorry
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