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Is failure the key to success?

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Old
10-08-2009, 03:41 PM
  #51
Rysto
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Originally Posted by Fire Therrien View Post
You explain the Sens through their mid 90s records. From 1992 on, they draft 2nd, 1st, 3rd, 1st, and 1st. That's actually 'worse' then the Penguins.
Yeah, and they picked Yashin, Daigle, Bonk, Berard and Phillips.

They did trade Berard and Martin Straka for Redden(among others; it was a complicated three-way deal), so that's one star player for Ottawa, and Phillips is solid but not a star(best player in a poor draft, though). Ottawa's success came from very good drafting later in the draft: Alfredsson in the sixth round, Hossa 12th overall, Havlat 29th overall, along with a couple of very shrewd trades like Yashin for Spezza and Chara.

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Old
10-08-2009, 03:42 PM
  #52
johnny_rudeboy
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No its not...

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Old
10-08-2009, 03:47 PM
  #53
Frozen Fiend
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We're not discussing whether or not Pittsburg (no h because i'm feeling mean) tanked or not, we're discussing if "sucking" is the way to go.

There are many ways to build a team, and I don't think forumula X will always be better than formula Y, or vice versa. Just do the best you can with what you have... that is the best formula.

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10-08-2009, 03:53 PM
  #54
expatriated_texan
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I would feel absolutely silly if I was a GM and tanked the season to draft Daigle.

Failure can key success but it does not assure you of it...look at the Islanders. Buying vets doesn't assure you of success either, look at the Rangers.

Yoda would have said it best if he had said, "**** tanking and signing high profile free agents...through smart management, championships come."

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Old
10-08-2009, 04:02 PM
  #55
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It is one of the more traditional ways to build a team. Lots of luck is involved, making the right choices, happening to suck at the right time, but you do see that story repeated a lot. You also see teams maintain excellence over long periods without the benefit of high picks often, and teams that suck for literally decades and squander those high picks. But is it a way to build a competitive and even championship team? Sure, most likely it is the model most often used.

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Old
10-08-2009, 04:04 PM
  #56
invictus
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Originally Posted by goooal View Post
No more tanking threads...please...

The Pens really did tank, though.
Hmm, it might be easier for reference if we could get a list of years the Pens did NOT tank.

Should be much easier to slap together.

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Old
10-08-2009, 04:06 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by odds View Post
Take a look at 1989 and who they took in that year in all the rounds, just because they are not picking at #1 and picking at 11 does not mean they were not low enough to pick generational stars. Not every #1 is going to be a Crosby, Ovechkin or Malkin but you can find a few strung out thru the draft over the years hiding like they did in 1989.


1st Mike Sillinger
2nd Bob Boughner
3rd Nicklas Lidstrom
4th Sergei Fedorov
5th Shawn McCosh
6th Dallas Drake
7th Scott Zygulski
they skip to 12th from there. Vladimir Konstantinov
Best draft ever. And Neil Smith wanted to draft Pavel Bure as well, but was shot down by other scouts.

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Old
10-08-2009, 04:09 PM
  #58
Randall Ritchey
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg Zeppelin View Post
You don't have to draft high to "build through the draft"
Berglund - 24th overall
Oshie - 25th overall
Perron - 26th overall.

Just for the Blues.

We know that Zetterberg, Ericsson and Datsyuk should have been first round picks...If only we knew.

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10-08-2009, 04:10 PM
  #59
Michael Scofield
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Can we just make it clear, every team plays to win. Every player plays to win. If they were told to lose/cheat/whatever, they wouldn't play.

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10-08-2009, 04:12 PM
  #60
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Yes. Failure is the key to success. That's how the cycle rolls.

Tank, get #1 pick, succeed. Penguins and Hawks did it. So did the Caps. Used #1 pick on Ovi...of course shrewd general managing also has to play a part too

It works for some teams, but then you look at the Leafs who have failed for years and haven't had a sniff of success since they fired Pat Quinn lol, where's their Penguins moment? LOL

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Old
10-08-2009, 05:20 PM
  #61
Luigi Lemieux
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Originally Posted by Rysto View Post
Yeah, and they picked Yashin, Daigle, Bonk, Berard and Phillips.

They did trade Berard and Martin Straka for Redden(among others; it was a complicated three-way deal), so that's one star player for Ottawa, and Phillips is solid but not a star(best player in a poor draft, though). Ottawa's success came from very good drafting later in the draft: Alfredsson in the sixth round, Hossa 12th overall, Havlat 29th overall, along with a couple of very shrewd trades like Yashin for Spezza and Chara.
you can't just ignore redden, spezza, and chara though. they would not have been an elite team without them, and directly or indirectly, they were on the team due to their mid nineties suckage.

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Old
10-08-2009, 05:42 PM
  #62
The Fear Boners
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Good management turns teams around, not just failing miserably.

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Old
10-08-2009, 06:01 PM
  #63
Nicklas Lidstrom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oshniak View Post
Berglund - 24th overall
Oshie - 25th overall
Perron - 26th overall.

Just for the Blues.

We know that Zetterberg, Ericsson and Datsyuk should have been first round picks...If only we knew.
Exactly. Teams do not "tank." That's retarded.

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Old
10-08-2009, 06:04 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by ixcuincle View Post
Yes. Failure is the key to success. That's how the cycle rolls.

Tank, get #1 pick, succeed. Penguins and Hawks did it. So did the Caps. Used #1 pick on Ovi...of course shrewd general managing also has to play a part too
...
This is completely wrong.

-The Pens never tanked. They were just a horrible business and on-ice model for four years, and they racked up top picks in exactly the right years.

-The Caps didn't get the number one pick by being the worst team. They weren't the lottery favorites, but they got the pick anyway. They aren't a good example for this.

-Same deal with the Hawks, who would be a good team even without Kane.

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Old
10-08-2009, 07:45 PM
  #65
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Obviously no teams mean to lose, maybe it's happened once or twice but not a full season, if they're a losing team maybe their coach will purposely play younger players to give them experience since they're going to lose anyway.

This isn't supposed to be about tanking, but determining how important the draft really is... Look how excited the the NYI, Lightning, Atlanta, Colorado, Toronto etc. were when they drafted their players, we look at these young guys as the future of the franchise, as people who can hopefully carry their team to victory... Obviously they're not all OV's and Crosbys but a couple young guys make a big difference for a team, meaning that getting a good position to the draft a couple years in a row could make an enormous difference for a team, getting those picks doesn't necessarily mean tanking, but trading also

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Old
10-08-2009, 09:06 PM
  #66
KH1
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Originally Posted by Stjonnypopo View Post
Obviously no teams mean to lose, maybe it's happened once or twice but not a full season, if they're a losing team maybe their coach will purposely play younger players to give them experience since they're going to lose anyway.

This isn't supposed to be about tanking, but determining how important the draft really is... Look how excited the the NYI, Lightning, Atlanta, Colorado, Toronto etc. were when they drafted their players, we look at these young guys as the future of the franchise, as people who can hopefully carry their team to victory... Obviously they're not all OV's and Crosbys but a couple young guys make a big difference for a team, meaning that getting a good position to the draft a couple years in a row could make an enormous difference for a team, getting those picks doesn't necessarily mean tanking, but trading also
You know what would excite this Islanders fan more? A playoff game.

I've had this debate on the Isles board more times than I care to recall, so I'm just gonna leave it at this: the notion that professional athletes should intentionally lose games so that an 18 year old can come take their job is insane. The notion that a young player will learn how to be a winner in an environment that condones or even encourages failure is even more ludicrous. This is the real world.

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Old
10-08-2009, 09:19 PM
  #67
nik jr
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Originally Posted by Adama0905 View Post
How is Detroit an obviously no? They didn't get good at all until they drafted Yzerman.
they didn't get good until '92, 9 seasons after yzerman was drafted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Best draft ever. And Neil Smith wanted to draft Pavel Bure as well, but was shot down by other scouts.
i think they were told bure was not eligible b/c of age.

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Old
10-08-2009, 09:23 PM
  #68
mm6492
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Originally Posted by Stjonnypopo View Post
Obviously no teams mean to lose, maybe it's happened once or twice but not a full season, if they're a losing team maybe their coach will purposely play younger players to give them experience since they're going to lose anyway.

This isn't supposed to be about tanking, but determining how important the draft really is... Look how excited the the NYI, Lightning, Atlanta, Colorado, Toronto etc. were when they drafted their players, we look at these young guys as the future of the franchise, as people who can hopefully carry their team to victory... Obviously they're not all OV's and Crosbys but a couple young guys make a big difference for a team, meaning that getting a good position to the draft a couple years in a row could make an enormous difference for a team, getting those picks doesn't necessarily mean tanking, but trading also
If only this was true...

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Old
10-09-2009, 06:43 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stjonnypopo View Post
Obviously no teams mean to lose, maybe it's happened once or twice but not a full season, if they're a losing team maybe their coach will purposely play younger players to give them experience since they're going to lose anyway.

This isn't supposed to be about tanking, but determining how important the draft really is... Look how excited the the NYI, Lightning, Atlanta, Colorado, Toronto etc. were when they drafted their players, we look at these young guys as the future of the franchise, as people who can hopefully carry their team to victory... Obviously they're not all OV's and Crosbys but a couple young guys make a big difference for a team, meaning that getting a good position to the draft a couple years in a row could make an enormous difference for a team, getting those picks doesn't necessarily mean tanking, but trading also
Eddie Johnston's smile says HI.

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Old
10-09-2009, 07:23 AM
  #70
Nazem Gretzky
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Originally Posted by danishh View Post
how do you explain a team like the 2005-2007 sens then? the 2000-2009 DRW? the late 90's stars?
Well Mad Mike Milbury sure helped your cause.

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Old
10-12-2009, 08:35 AM
  #71
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It has been in the past for other teams. Now we will have to wait and see with the NYI.

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Old
10-12-2009, 12:20 PM
  #72
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If only this was true...

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Old
10-12-2009, 12:39 PM
  #73
Tumsh
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I would say that the only team that "really" succeeded was Pittsburgh. Then again they lucked out in the lockout year lottery, and in the fact that 2 superstars were in the draft the year they drafted 2nd. We still have to see if the other teams that could do the same (Chicago, Columbus, Atlanta, LA, etc) will actually go all the way. These are teams that rely heavily on players on Entry level deals to pull a lot of their weight. So you have a limited window before you have to start paying them like everyone else. Malkin on an entry level deal is worth more than, say, Kane or Teows...

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Old
10-12-2009, 01:02 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by dawkins121 View Post
The Red Wings would tend to disagree
Yep.

In fact losing I strongly feel begets losing. While you have teams like the Caps & Pens, there are many others that never get to that spot ... Florida and Phoenix have been losing for years and have nothing to show for it.

It's all about how teams develop players. Doesn't matter where you take them in the draft.

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Old
10-12-2009, 01:06 PM
  #75
BrindamoursNose
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It can be. Pit, LA and Chi lost a lot to get good, but teams like Detroit and Philly just keep it going without lots of high picks.

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