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AO power forward or not?

View Poll Results: AO power forward or not?
AO is a power forward 120 63.49%
AO is not a power forward 69 36.51%
Voters: 189. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-11-2009, 01:12 PM
  #51
shortshorts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor D View Post
He's the best sniper in the league who throws hits to supplement his game. He doesn't bowl over defenders in front of the net to get goals, that's not his game. And he doesn't fight.
right here is your winner.

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Old
10-11-2009, 01:17 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
I think that you need to watch him more. Yes, he does have other skills such as speed and great stick handling abilities, but to say that it doesn't revolve around the physical aspect is just plain wrong.
I have watched him plenty enough thank you. I'm not saying AO is soft because he most certainly isn't. But like I said, he simply doesn't have the mean streak. He's kinda like Forsberg who was great in the corners, was one of the best protecting the puck with his body but lacked the mean streak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
While some power forwards did/do use the intimidation aspect, not all did/do. That's where your definition is misconceived.
Which powerforwards didn't have fighting in their game? And I mean universally acknowledged powerforwards.

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Old
10-11-2009, 01:36 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
I have watched him plenty enough thank you. I'm not saying AO is soft because he most certainly isn't. But like I said, he simply doesn't have the mean streak. He's kinda like Forsberg who was great in the corners, was one of the best protecting the puck with his body but lacked the mean streak.
It's better to agree to disagree as fundamentally, your definition is different than the majority (according to this poll anyway), and that's the base of the debate.

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Old
10-11-2009, 01:39 PM
  #54
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He's not a power forward, or any stereotypical hockey player. He's Ovechkin.

That's honestly the best way to describe him, I don't think anyone plays like Ovechkin.

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10-11-2009, 01:49 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Which powerforwards didn't have fighting in their game? And I mean universally acknowledged powerforwards.
Mark Messier averaged about 1 fight per season from 1983 to the end of his career - not exactly a fighting machine... must not be a power forward.

Gary Roberts averaged 1-2 fights per season starting 2001 season - must not be a power forward after 2001...

Tim Kerr averaged 1-2 fights per season - is that enough to be considered a power forward?

I guess John Leclair wasn't a power forward... almost never fought in his career.

Pepper, I get your meaning... OV doesn't intimidate after the whistle is blown but he does intimidate ( physically ) during play - he's finished in the top 10 in hits the last two seasons.


Last edited by Le CH: 10-11-2009 at 02:22 PM.
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Old
10-11-2009, 04:12 PM
  #56
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Ovechkin is too good to be lumped in as a power forward. He's much more then that.

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Old
10-11-2009, 05:45 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
It's better to agree to disagree as fundamentally, your definition is different than the majority (according to this poll anyway), and that's the base of the debate.
I'm perfectly happy with my definition and the fact that every universally accepted powerforward have had fighting in their game supports my claim just fine.

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Old
10-11-2009, 05:52 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Habstastic View Post
Mark Messier averaged about 1 fight per season from 1983 to the end of his career - not exactly a fighting machine... must not be a power forward.
Where did you get your stats? Messier had 49 fights in the NHL and 26 from 84-85 to 00-01 (16 seasons) so the average is higher than 1.

Messier didn't fight that much in his later days, just like Tkachuk doesn't fight anymore. In their primes both were nasty, intidimating players however.

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Old
10-11-2009, 08:15 PM
  #59
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well with mess

with mark mess i feel like his later teams needed him on the ice to much to allow him to fight

when it comes to ovy could he be a power foward yes but his other skills outweigh that so what would be the point of him driving hard to the net and getting gritty on the boards when you really want him in the open about to rip a one timer

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Old
10-11-2009, 08:47 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Where did you get your stats? Messier had 49 fights in the NHL and 26 from 84-85 to 00-01 (16 seasons) so the average is higher than 1.

Messier didn't fight that much in his later days, just like Tkachuk doesn't fight anymore. In their primes both were nasty, intidimating players however.
26 fights in 16 seasons is indeed more than 1 but not much... so averaging 1.6 fights/season makes him a power forward? Can you provide the "universal" agreed upon threshold for fights per season to become a power forward since you seem to know.


Last edited by Le CH: 10-11-2009 at 09:06 PM.
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Old
10-11-2009, 10:47 PM
  #61
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In todays game he obviously is

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Old
10-12-2009, 12:08 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habstastic View Post
26 fights in 16 seasons is indeed more than 1 but not much... so averaging 1.6 fights/season makes him a power forward? Can you provide the "universal" agreed upon threshold for fights per season to become a power forward since you seem to know.
Well he had 10 and 7 fight seasons and I don't quite understand why you ignore his early seasons when he fought more.

And no, I don't have an exact number of fights required, atleast 1 per season would be a start though. After that it's debatable.

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Old
10-12-2009, 12:15 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habstastic View Post
26 fights in 16 seasons is indeed more than 1 but not much... so averaging 1.6 fights/season makes him a power forward? Can you provide the "universal" agreed upon threshold for fights per season to become a power forward since you seem to know.
Of course not, as it would mean having set rules to back-up his definition... just like he thinks that fighting is a must to be considered a power forward.

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Old
10-12-2009, 01:41 AM
  #64
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If you can remember the hey days of Cam Neely, Eric Lindros, Rick Tocchet, Brendan Shanahan, Kevin Stevens and Keith Tkachuk, you probably wouldn't consider Ovie a power forward. That's when the term came into existence for hockey players and I see no reason to change it.

He's a guy who's not afraid to check, but if you can really remember the players above - the ones for whom the term was invented - then you should know that Ovie is absolutely not a power forward.

Power forwards get lots of PIM's, they get in some fights, and most importantly, they're mean. Ovechkin's as much a power forward as Mario Lemieux.

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Old
10-12-2009, 02:13 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
Of course not, as it would mean having set rules to back-up his definition... just like he thinks that fighting is a must to be considered a power forward.
Don't be an idiot, there's no numbers to define playmakers, snipers or shutdown d-men either.

You have your definition, I have mine. Like I said before, all the prototypical powerforwards of the past had fighting in their game, atleast on some level.

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Old
10-12-2009, 02:22 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonAJ View Post
If you can remember the hey days of Cam Neely, Eric Lindros, Rick Tocchet, Brendan Shanahan, Kevin Stevens and Keith Tkachuk, you probably wouldn't consider Ovie a power forward. That's when the term came into existence for hockey players and I see no reason to change it.
Damn right. Those players defined the term but so many posters here want to change the definition so that they can include their favorite players in the category.

AO clearly lacks some of the qualities that those players had. It doesn't make him any worse as a player, just different. It's like some people here think that not being a powerforward, a player can't be elite even when none of the top 3 forwards in the league aren't powerforwards.

Not being a powerforward didn't make Gretzky or Lemieux any worse.

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Old
10-12-2009, 10:26 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Don't be an idiot, there's no numbers to define playmakers, snipers or shutdown d-men either.

You have your definition, I have mine. Like I said before, all the prototypical powerforwards of the past had fighting in their game, atleast on some level.
Far from being an idiot, I can at least recognize that not all power forwards fight and that in this new NHL, because a player doesn't fight doesn't take away the FACT that he does use power and strength in his game. I am however not narrow minded enough to refuse to acknowledge the fact that just because he uses other attributes, that he has other skills, it doesn't take away the power forward aspect though. Why is he a power forward? Because he CAN do it!

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Old
10-12-2009, 11:00 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
I am however not narrow minded enough to refuse to acknowledge the fact that just because he uses other attributes, that he has other skills, it doesn't take away the power forward aspect though. Why is he a power forward? Because he CAN do it!
But thats why we use definitions of power forward, sniper etc. so that people know how a player plays the game and what is his biggest strenght. You cant call someone a power forward just because he can (but wont all the time) play the game like a power forward if his biggest strenght is getting to the open areas and shoot the puck like its fired from a cannon and THAT is what ovechkin tries to do 100% of the time when he is on the ice. For Ovechkin its shoot first, pass or the drive the net second, that makes him a sniper.

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Old
10-12-2009, 12:02 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
Far from being an idiot, I can at least recognize that not all power forwards fight and that in this new NHL, because a player doesn't fight doesn't take away the FACT that he does use power and strength in his game.
There you go again, you're basicly saying that you can recognize the same claim you have been making over and over again with the only argument you have is your opinion what a powerforward is.

Newsflash, EVERY player in the league uses power and strength in their game to some extent. If we use your VERY loose definition of a powerforward, there's atleast 50 players who qualify.

Like I said, the players who defined the term powerforward all fought atleast somewhat regularly. You can keep throwing your opinions all you want but you can't change that fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
I am however not narrow minded enough to refuse to acknowledge the fact that just because he uses other attributes, that he has other skills, it doesn't take away the power forward aspect though. Why is he a power forward? Because he CAN do it!
And there we disagree. He doesn't have some of the qualities that the players who originally defined the term powerforward had.

There are several players in the league who COULD play powerforward game but don't. That's why they are not powerforwards.

You claim not to be narrowminded yet the only argument you have here is your opinion of a powerforward and you hold that as fact. Try to come up with more substance.

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10-12-2009, 06:52 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
There you go again, you're basicly saying that you can recognize the same claim you have been making over and over again with the only argument you have is your opinion what a powerforward is.

Newsflash, EVERY player in the league uses power and strength in their game to some extent. If we use your VERY loose definition of a powerforward, there's atleast 50 players who qualify.

Like I said, the players who defined the term powerforward all fought atleast somewhat regularly. You can keep throwing your opinions all you want but you can't change that fact.



And there we disagree. He doesn't have some of the qualities that the players who originally defined the term powerforward had.

There are several players in the league who COULD play powerforward game but don't. That's why they are not powerforwards.

You claim not to be narrowminded yet the only argument you have here is your opinion of a powerforward and you hold that as fact. Try to come up with more substance.
There you go again, you're basicly saying that you can recognize the same claim you have been making over and over again with the only argument you have is your opinion what a powerforward is.

Newsflash, it's your opinion and it's kind of odd that a vast majority here doesn't seem to agree with you, according to this poll.

You know what I think of your "substance", right? I think that you're listening to the little voices in your head a bit too much.

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Old
10-12-2009, 07:28 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonAJ View Post
If you can remember the hey days of Cam Neely, Eric Lindros, Rick Tocchet, Brendan Shanahan, Kevin Stevens and Keith Tkachuk, you probably wouldn't consider Ovie a power forward. That's when the term came into existence for hockey players and I see no reason to change it.

He's a guy who's not afraid to check, but if you can really remember the players above - the ones for whom the term was invented - then you should know that Ovie is absolutely not a power forward.

Power forwards get lots of PIM's, they get in some fights, and most importantly, they're mean. Ovechkin's as much a power forward as Mario Lemieux.
This. And like it has already been said, it certainly doesn't make him any worse as a player.

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Old
10-12-2009, 07:37 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
There you go again, you're basicly saying that you can recognize the same claim you have been making over and over again with the only argument you have is your opinion what a powerforward is.

Newsflash, it's your opinion and it's kind of odd that a vast majority here doesn't seem to agree with you, according to this poll.

You know what I think of your "substance", right? I think that you're listening to the little voices in your head a bit too much.
It's interesting to see people constantly criticizing the intellect of the average hf board poster. At least that is, until a poll supports their position. Then all of a sudden the opinion of the masses means the world.

To address the topic at hand, AO is a hard hitting physical sniper. He's not a power forward. Power forwards power through people instead of skating around them. They go into the corners to dig out the puck for their centers. That's not really AO's game. He's got a brilliant mind for knowing where the empty spaces are going to be, he's got the speed to get himself there and the talent to bury his chances. AO is arguably the best player in the league, but if we're going to start calling AO a power forward, we've got to call Crosby a power forward too (which is ridiculous). AO does not rely on his physicality in order to create scoring chances...Crosby does.

Fighting, agitating, and sacrificing the body in order to make the play are other attributes sometimes used to describe power forwards. None of these are particularly big parts of AO's game either. Sure the guy is willing to take a hit to score a goal, but he doesn't intentionally put himself in harmful situations to make the play like some of the famous power forwards.

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Old
10-13-2009, 01:13 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
You know what I think of your "substance", right? I think that you're listening to the little voices in your head a bit too much.
So which players defined the term powerforward then?

So far you have ZERO substance to back up your claims. The term of powerforward was defined by players who all fought yet in your opinion a player whose biggest strength is not the power game nor by your own admission play the power game constantly, is a true power forward.

Seems like you're out of your league here.

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Old
10-13-2009, 12:36 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
So which players defined the term powerforward then?

So far you have ZERO substance to back up your claims. The term of powerforward was defined by players who happened to fight as well yet in your opinion a player whose biggest strength is not the power game nor by your own admission play the power game constantly, is a true power forward.

Seems like you're out of your league here.
Mean skilled players fought, they don't anymore, they're too valuable to risk unnecessary injury and to sit in the box for 5 minutes. The players, and sport has evolved. Definitions change over the years.

Why would Iginla fight Perros, to risk injury and do Anaheim a favour by taking himself off the ice, and an even bigger favour by getting Parros off the ice?

Why would Ovechkin fight Lucic, to risk injury and do Boston a huge favour by taking himself off the ice for 5min?

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Old
10-13-2009, 12:38 PM
  #75
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He's a power forward. He destroys people.

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