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Sharp Toungue MIght End Up Biting Vigneault

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Old
10-11-2009, 02:45 PM
  #51
Viktri
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
That is your interpretation. Mine differs.
Yes, I agree.

But I am trying to point out to you what Dana Murzyn was saying.

It is a false conclusion to say Mitchell did not play due to fear of increasing injury. You might say that could be one of the reasons (you might also be right but there is insufficient evidence) because every time there is an injury you fear hurting yourself more because you were trying something new to avoid pain. But the diagnosis by the doctors was right - whether the coach and the player reconcile their difference on pain thresholds is another matter.

I say if Willie says he was too hurt to play, I go with the player since he's the guy feeling the pain.

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10-11-2009, 02:47 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Viktri View Post
Yes, I agree.

But I am trying to point out to you what Dana Murzyn was saying.

It is a false conclusion to say Mitchell did not play due to fear of increasing injury. You might say that could be one of the reasons because every time there is an injury you fear hurting yourself more because you were trying something new to avoid pain.
No it is not a "false conclusion". It is an opinion.

Given Willie Mitchell's demonstrated high pain threshold over his career, I would go with that he was concerned about the injury not being fully healed.

YMMV.

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Old
10-11-2009, 02:52 PM
  #53
Viktri
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
No it is not a "false conclusion". It is an opinion.

Given Willie Mitchell's demonstrated high pain threshold over his career, I would go with that he was concerned about the injury not being fully healed.

YMMV.
Opinions are cool but you said this:

Mitchell did disagree - he did not play. (statement of fact)

to this:

At no point did "Dr. Vee", as you get so much pleasure from calling him, inaccurately diagnose anything. He was repeating the doctor's opinion -- which was accurate. Mitchell did have a stress fracture, and playing through it would not exacerbate the injury. Mitchell did not disagree with the diagnosis.

Which is a false conclusion draw.

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Old
10-11-2009, 03:22 PM
  #54
Biatcheslov
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
I doubt that very much. Ohlund was considered by many the best player not in the NHL.
Even if that is true, that does not make Ohlund more promising of a prospect than the Sedins were, nor does it say anything about his top-end potential. Based on your thoughts on the 1999 draft, you seem to think the Sedins were not thought of as players with top-end potential when drafted. That is simply ludicrous. The press were making these guys out as the next coming of Jesus:

Quote:
"Ten years from now, it will be remembered as the most significant deal in team history and the start of a new era for the NHL's most tortured franchise."
http://www.theprovince.com/sports/ba...202/story.html

Dig and you'll find more quotes like this.

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Old
10-11-2009, 03:47 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Biatcheslov View Post
Even if that is true, that does not make Ohlund more promising of a prospect than the Sedins were, nor does it say anything about his top-end potential. Based on your thoughts on the 1999 draft, you seem to think the Sedins were not thought of as players with top-end potential when drafted. That is simply ludicrous. The press were making these guys out as the next coming of Jesus:


http://www.theprovince.com/sports/ba...202/story.html

Dig and you'll find more quotes like this.
And you can find numerous quotes bemoaning how slowly the Sedins were developing, lack of speed, strength, etc.

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10-11-2009, 03:54 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biatcheslov View Post
as an aside:



Tony Gallagher FAIL

:cough: Sedins :cough:
You're forgetting Patrick White!

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Old
10-11-2009, 03:54 PM
  #57
Biatcheslov
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
And you can find numerous quotes bemoaning how slowly the Sedins were developing, lack of speed, strength, etc.
That does nothing to dispute that in this town they were almost universally thought of as elite prospects when drafted. Whether or not they were slow in developing later on is besides the point. Hell, many are now bemoaning Hodgson's skating and development yet he is apparently still as "promising as Ohlund."

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Old
10-11-2009, 03:59 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Biatcheslov View Post
That does nothing to dispute that in this town they were almost universally thought of as elite prospects when drafted. Whether or not they were slow in developing later on is besides the point. Hell, many are now bemoaning Hodgson's skating and development yet he is apparently still as "promising as Ohlund."
There were many who questioned how elite they were at the time they were drafted. And there were a number of pundits at the time who questioned if Burke gave up too much. The Canucks first traded up and coming defenseman Bryan McCabe and their first rounder in 2000 to Chicago for the fourth overall pick in the 1999 draft. Burke then swapped that pick and added two third round picks to Tampa Bay for the first overall pick. Finally, he traded the first overall pick as well as fourth round and ninth round picks in 1999 to Atlanta for the second overall pick and a third round pick in 2000.

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10-11-2009, 04:13 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
There were many who questioned how elite they were at the time they were drafted. And there were a number of pundits at the time who questioned if Burke gave up too much. The Canucks first traded up and coming defenseman Bryan McCabe and their first rounder in 2000 to Chicago for the fourth overall pick in the 1999 draft. Burke then swapped that pick and added two third round picks to Tampa Bay for the first overall pick. Finally, he traded the first overall pick as well as fourth round and ninth round picks in 1999 to Atlanta for the second overall pick and a third round pick in 2000.
And some questioned (and still do question) how elite Hodgson is. I hear all the time how he is more of a Daymond Langkow 2nd-line type. And I guarantee your claim that Ohlund was thought of as "the best player outside of the NHL" was not universally accepted. Anyone who lived in Vancouver in 1999 remembers the hysteria when the Sedins were drafted. The hype was there, and it was there because these guys were thought of as being the foundation of a new era of Canucks hockey.

Whether or not Burke was perceived as giving up too much is pretty much irrelevant. Four months ago, some people would say that Burrows, Bieksa and a 1st would be too much to give up for Hedman. Does that make Hedman a non-elite prospect?

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Old
10-11-2009, 05:11 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
There were many who questioned how elite they were at the time they were drafted. And there were a number of pundits at the time who questioned if Burke gave up too much. The Canucks first traded up and coming defenseman Bryan McCabe and their first rounder in 2000 to Chicago for the fourth overall pick in the 1999 draft. Burke then swapped that pick and added two third round picks to Tampa Bay for the first overall pick. Finally, he traded the first overall pick as well as fourth round and ninth round picks in 1999 to Atlanta for the second overall pick and a third round pick in 2000.
The hype/expectations/projections for the Sedins from the time they were drafted in 1999 until they made their debuts here 15 months later is the most anyone in the recent history of this franchise has received. Probably even moreso than Bure (primarily due to the era that Bure was coming through the system - no internet, few videos of him playing, etc.). It was huge. You could buy 'SEDIN 22' and 'SEDIN 33' jerseys in the team shop a year before their debuts in a Canuck jersey.

To claim that they were less hyped than Ohlund is ridiculous. It isn't even close.

The reason there were so many questions during their first couple years is because the expectations were so bloody high. They were expected to step in here as quality scoring-line forwards immediately.

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Old
10-11-2009, 05:16 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Biatcheslov View Post
And some questioned (and still do question) how elite Hodgson is. I hear all the time how he is more of a Daymond Langkow 2nd-line type. And I guarantee your claim that Ohlund was thought of as "the best player outside of the NHL" was not universally accepted. Anyone who lived in Vancouver in 1999 remembers the hysteria when the Sedins were drafted. The hype was there, and it was there because these guys were thought of as being the foundation of a new era of Canucks hockey.

Whether or not Burke was perceived as giving up too much is pretty much irrelevant. Four months ago, some people would say that Burrows, Bieksa and a 1st would be too much to give up for Hedman. Does that make Hedman a non-elite prospect?
I have been through the draft hype since Vancouver entered the NHL and selected Dale Tallon with their first pick.

The point was in answer to your claim that "they were almost universally thought of as elite prospects when drafted". That was not so. There were a number of cheerleaders but there were also a number of pundits who did not consider the Sedins elite prospects at the time of the draft.

Burke was criticized for giving up too much for the Sedins.

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Old
10-11-2009, 05:22 PM
  #62
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Enough with this crap. This has nothing to do with the thread topic.

Get back on topic or you'll get infracted and this thread will be locked. I'm not here to babysit a petty unrelated argument.

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Old
10-11-2009, 08:40 PM
  #63
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managing our most valuable asset

I think AV has proven on this occasion that he didn't manage CoHo well.

I think.... they (AV & MG) should have pulled the pin earlier and supported him getting healthy... and dominate the AHL - continue his leadership. Next year... he'll be bigger and stronger... and we'll be ready to fit him into our lineup better.... and also, he'll be able to be put into the AHL if and when needed. Instead, they put the weight of this decision entirely on his shoulders.... like he wasn't ready - whatever, he wasn't ready to play yes, cause he wasn't healthy. Poor decision.

For the fact is... he's still "YOUNG". Injuries happen... and he's got plenty of time. Backs aren't something to mess with. Especially in hockey.

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Old
10-12-2009, 01:37 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
The Canucks doctors are likely under a fair bit of pressure to declare a player healthy at the earliest opportunity.

But what they won't like is having another, more prestigious medical facility who don't have that pressure conflict with them.

So AV was probably doing some damage control.

Was Hodgson ready to come back? In the world of pro hockey, where players can and do play through injury, the answer would be yes. For the rest of the world, the answer would be to take it easy for a couple of weeks. The fact that there is a difference here should surprise nobody.

Even though he didn't make the camp, it was likely in Hodgson's best interest to return. He got into some games and will be more prepared for next season.
My sentiments exactly

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Old
10-12-2009, 03:20 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Biatcheslov View Post
Even if that is true, that does not make Ohlund more promising of a prospect than the Sedins were, nor does it say anything about his top-end potential. Based on your thoughts on the 1999 draft, you seem to think the Sedins were not thought of as players with top-end potential when drafted. That is simply ludicrous. The press were making these guys out as the next coming of Jesus:


http://www.theprovince.com/sports/ba...202/story.html

Dig and you'll find more quotes like this.

Dig deeper and you'll find a plethora of Willes comments that are idiotic.

In a weak, weak draft the Sedins might have been the most intriguing of the lot, but it wasn't anything close to JC coming back. If they werent twins it would have simply been two players we picked that had potential.

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Old
10-12-2009, 03:21 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by SharksDownUnder View Post
I think AV has proven on this occasion that he didn't manage CoHo well.

I think.... they (AV & MG) should have pulled the pin earlier and supported him getting healthy... and dominate the AHL - continue his leadership.

I assume you mean the OHL.

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Old
10-12-2009, 06:53 PM
  #67
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My apologies if someone already mentioned this, but I believe there are at least 3 guys that have been called out by AV for not fighting through their injuries...

Cody Hodgson
Willie Mitchell
Rick Rypien

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Old
10-12-2009, 08:09 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by peacemaker View Post
My apologies if someone already mentioned this, but I believe there are at least 3 guys that have been called out by AV for not fighting through their injuries...

Cody Hodgson
Willie Mitchell
Rick Rypien
Your point of Rypien doesn't mean much considering AV is the *MOST* ardent supporter of putting that guy into the lineup (not that I recall AV ever calling him out over that issue). Been the coach's favorite since their Moose days.

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Old
10-13-2009, 11:16 AM
  #69
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The most overused nauseating phrase of Canadian hockey fans is ... "called out."

Vigneault's the coach of a high profile team, he has to talk to the media a lot, he tries to be honest with them and really all of us. It's not calling people out, it's being truthful. He didn't have correct information in regards to Willie Mitchell's injury because he leaves it up to the medical staff. That also happened a long time ago.

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Old
10-13-2009, 11:27 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by VanEric View Post
The most overused nauseating phrase of Canadian hockey fans is ... "called out."

Vigneault's the coach of a high profile team, he has to talk to the media a lot, he tries to be honest with them and really all of us. It's not calling people out, it's being truthful. He didn't have correct information in regards to Willie Mitchell's injury because he leaves it up to the medical staff. That also happened a long time ago.
It is not overused in Toronto - what else can Ron Wilson do?

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