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Peter Bondra, hockey hall of fame?

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Old
05-16-2013, 04:53 AM
  #226
Theokritos
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Originally Posted by I Am Score* View Post
Bondra is absolutely huge around here. Even as it stands, I would argue he was a better player than Ovechkin at this point.
Here is the post that I missed. So someone really claimed Bondra was better than Ovechkin. Just wow.

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05-16-2013, 05:10 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Good point. I think they should have not gotten in either. But the thing is, all of these guys have top-10 point finishes.

They are all also 1000+ point players, well Gartner has 1300+ and Ciccarelli has 1200. Bondra has less than 900. I know the era means a lot, but HoF induction is often based on raw totals.

Maybe the inflated 80's numbers helped too. But even if there has been weak inductions does not mean Bondra will get in. I actually think all those guys were better than Bondra. You are not going to win a lot scoring titles playing against Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, Kurri, Hull, Bossy,...
Ciccarelli and Gartner have compiled great totals, and that's why they're in. I would however not consider Gartner a better player than Bondra (Ciccarelli is debatable).

Mullen is IMHO the most interesting case - he got in mostly because he was the first American to top 500 goals/1000 pts.

Not saying that Bondra should be in just because there's inferior guys in already, though.

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05-16-2013, 05:23 AM
  #228
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We are talking about a HoF where only 12 players are euros... Bondra will never get in, thats it

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05-16-2013, 05:39 AM
  #229
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Ciccarelli and Gartner have compiled great totals, and that's why they're in. I would however not consider Gartner a better player than Bondra (Ciccarelli is debatable).

Mullen is IMHO the most interesting case - he got in mostly because he was the first American to top 500 goals/1000 pts.

Not saying that Bondra should be in just because there's inferior guys in already, though.
I think Gartner get too much bad rap about being compiler. Well, he was a compiler for sure. But you don't get 5 top-10 goal finishes without being great scorer. Bondra does have a lot more impressive goal finishes. But I believe that Gartner faced tougher goal-scoring competition than Bondra.

But you are probably right, Gartner was not as good as Bondra as a goal scorer.

Bondra is an interesting case and it is rare when 2x goal-scoring champion and 6x in Top-10 is ranked this low. Maybe we tend to forget what kind of player he was and give him too much bad rap due to his low numbers. It is largely affected by the overall scoring, but Bondra was indeed a very limited offensive player.

The thing is that most of us would have left Selanne out of the Hall if he would have not redeemed himself after the lockout-05.
879 Games
452 Goals
499 Assists
951 Points
2x 1st Team All-Star
2x 2nd Team All-Star
3x Goal Scoring Leader
6 Top-10 Point Finishes with twice second behind Lemieux and Jagr
4x 100+ point seasons

If we are seriously on fence about that resume, then how does Bondra compare to this?

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05-16-2013, 07:39 AM
  #230
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Well, sounds reasonable. But I don't think there should be some certain amount of games required for eligibility.

Hypothetical: Player comes to league with Gretzky-like performance. Basically re-writing record books. The player is forced to retire due to career ending injury after playing 6 seasons and under 500 games played. Winning two Cups and being the undisputed best player every single year.

The guy belongs in the hall. If there is a strict rule for certain amount of games then there is not equal chance for everyone. Some player might have to hang them up for a reasons not for their own.
Ovechkin was a HHOF lock at five years. So your scenario happened in real life.

Also: No player has ever won the Hart AND the Ross and NOT been inducted.

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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
I think Gartner get too much bad rap about being compiler. Well, he was a compiler for sure. But you don't get 5 top-10 goal finishes without being great scorer. Bondra does have a lot more impressive goal finishes. But I believe that Gartner faced tougher goal-scoring competition than Bondra.

But you are probably right, Gartner was not as good as Bondra as a goal scorer.

Bondra is an interesting case and it is rare when 2x goal-scoring champion and 6x in Top-10 is ranked this low. Maybe we tend to forget what kind of player he was and give him too much bad rap due to his low numbers. It is largely affected by the overall scoring, but Bondra was indeed a very limited offensive player.

The thing is that most of us would have left Selanne out of the Hall if he would have not redeemed himself after the lockout-05.
879 Games
452 Goals
499 Assists
951 Points
2x 1st Team All-Star
2x 2nd Team All-Star
3x Goal Scoring Leader
6 Top-10 Point Finishes with twice second behind Lemieux and Jagr
4x 100+ point seasons

If we are seriously on fence about that resume, then how does Bondra compare to this?
Selanne's resume circa 2004 is still better than Bondra's. Especially with the several high point seasons, the Calder, multiple AS team selections, and the 76-56-132 year. It's like comparing Nicholls to Messier offensively from the time Nicholls entered the league through the end of the 1990-91 season (they were traded for each other at the start of 1991-92). Nicholls is only 70 points behind, and is ahead in goals. With the better peak offensive season.

Now... what are we missing from both of these comparisons?

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05-16-2013, 08:03 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Ovechkin was a HHOF lock at five years. So your scenario happened in real life.

Also: No player has ever won the Hart AND the Ross and NOT been inducted.
Actually, Ovechkin was the player on my mind when I made the "Gretzky" comparison. No, I obviously don't think Gretzky is the same as Ovechkin, but the poster specifically said that he thinks Ovechkin should not get in yet due to the lack of games played. I really couldn't use Ovechkin as an example of why Ovechkin should get in before 650 games?

Quote:
Selanne's resume circa 2004 is still better than Bondra's. Especially with the several high point seasons, the Calder, multiple AS team selections, and the 76-56-132 year. It's like comparing Nicholls to Messier offensively from the time Nicholls entered the league through the end of the 1990-91 season (they were traded for each other at the start of 1991-92). Nicholls is only 70 points behind, and is ahead in goals. With the better peak offensive season.

Now... what are we missing from both of these comparisons?

I now it is more impressive than Bondras whole body of work. That is why I took it as an example.
If Selanne would have decided to quit playing after lockout-05, as he almost did, that would have been his resume. I remember people talking that he was a borderline HoF inductee and the most common opinion was that he should not get in.

If that resume is not going to get people to think player is HoF worthy then how on earth should Bondra be?

I don't know what we are missing. Could you enlighten me?

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05-16-2013, 08:23 AM
  #232
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Actually, Ovechkin was the player on my mind when I made the "Gretzky" comparison. No, I obviously don't think Gretzky is the same as Ovechkin, but the poster specifically said that he thinks Ovechkin should not get in yet due to the lack of games played. I really couldn't use Ovechkin as an example of why Ovechkin should get in before 650 games?
He was first-team every year his first five years, and won a bunch of Ross/Hart/Lindsay awards. If he had retired before year six, he's in.

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I now it is more impressive than Bondras whole body of work. That is why I took it as an example.
If Selanne would have decided to quit playing after lockout-05, as he almost did, that would have been his resume. I remember people talking that he was a borderline HoF inductee and the most common opinion was that he should not get in.

If that resume is not going to get people to think player is HoF worthy then how on earth should Bondra be?

I don't know what we are missing. Could you enlighten me?
Pre-lockout Selanne has comparable playoff numbers despite rarely playing on a team good enough to actually make the playoffs - and only doing so twice during his prime (for 14 points in 15 games). In Bondra's prime (playing in front of Kolzig) he scored 29 in 41 in the playoffs - with only one PPG playoff in five appearances. In those same playoff games, Bondra had 18 goals, and Selanne had 9.

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05-16-2013, 08:30 AM
  #233
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
He was first-team every year his first five years, and won a bunch of Ross/Hart/Lindsay awards. If he had retired before year six, he's in.
Agreed, 100%.

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Pre-lockout Selanne has comparable playoff numbers despite rarely playing on a team good enough to actually make the playoffs - and only doing so twice during his prime (for 14 points in 15 games). In Bondra's prime (playing in front of Kolzig) he scored 29 in 41 in the playoffs - with only one PPG playoff in five appearances. In those same playoff games, Bondra had 18 goals, and Selanne had 9.

Fair enough. But I don't think playoff resume is something that has been brought up as a positive when discussing either of these two players. I can't really see why we would be comparing the playoff performances by these two.

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05-16-2013, 12:24 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
The thing is that most of us would have left Selanne out of the Hall if he would have not redeemed himself after the lockout-05.
I wouldn't have, and I'm not even a fan. What he did post lockout is overrated and his rookie season is a bit overrated too. 19961999 though, that's a pretty good player.

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05-16-2013, 12:53 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by the edler View Post
I wouldn't have, and I'm not even a fan. What he did post lockout is overrated and his rookie season is a bit overrated too. 19961999 though, that's a pretty good player.
I probably would have put him in after that, but there was a lot of guys who were saying that he would have not gotten in.

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05-16-2013, 03:59 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
We are talking about a HoF where only 12 players are euros... Bondra will never get in, thats it
Eh, I don't really see this being a factor. The first generation of NHLers to be heavily filled with Euros just retired

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05-16-2013, 07:01 PM
  #237
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Eh, I don't really see this being a factor. The first generation of NHLers to be heavily filled with Euros just retired
Which makes you wonder; will they expand/eliminate the "4 players" limit, or will we see much more waiting?

If the same number of players every year get inducted going forward, with a considerable increase in European inductees, it's basically saying that the level of North American players have declined considerably since Europeans joined the league.

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05-16-2013, 07:44 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Which makes you wonder; will they expand/eliminate the "4 players" limit, or will we see much more waiting?

If the same number of players every year get inducted going forward, with a considerable increase in European inductees, it's basically saying that the level of North American players have declined considerably since Europeans joined the league.
Given some of the comments about players over time in this section some seem to hold that view.

the old the "NHL top players have always been the best players available so it's very much the same over time..." argument doesn't really stand up very well.

Heck Bondra looks to be a better bet for the HHOF than Steve Shutt and it's not even really close but one guy played in a more favorable era.

If the HHOF sticks to their 4 player rule more and more very deserving guys will be left out, making the questionable guys in the HHOF look even more questionable.

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05-16-2013, 07:47 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Which makes you wonder; will they expand/eliminate the "4 players" limit, or will we see much more waiting?

If the same number of players every year get inducted going forward, with a considerable increase in European inductees, it's basically saying that the level of North American players have declined considerably since Europeans joined the league.
It's not saying that at all. It just means that it will become more common for them to induct four players in a year. More available elite players in the talent pool equals more inductions.

They're already headed in that direction. They've inducted four players in four of the last six years. That only happened once in the thirteen years prior to that.

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05-16-2013, 10:23 PM
  #240
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It's not saying that at all. It just means that it will become more common for them to induct four players in a year. More available elite players in the talent pool equals more inductions.

They're already headed in that direction. They've inducted four players in four of the last six years. That only happened once in the thirteen years prior to that.
Exactly. Excluding older (European and American) players who will prob never get in, Lindros is the only major leftover so it won't even be harder to get in.

One poster said it's possible to play less than 500 games and break Gretzky's career scoring records. 2857 points \ 499 games = 5.75 PPG! I don't think so.

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05-16-2013, 11:00 PM
  #241
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Exactly. Excluding older (European and American) players who will prob never get in, Lindros is the only major leftover so it won't even be harder to get in.
Excluding retirees who are not eligible until this summer or later (Hasek, Lidstrom, Chelios, Niedermayer, Blake, etc.), the following are players who played a significant portion of their career since 1980 and are (at least arguably) HHOF-worthy:

Makarov, Kariya, Larmer, Fleury, Nicholls, Shanahan, Recchi, Wilson, Zubov, Ramsey

After that list, there are a bunch of goaltenders to consider.

Tom Barrasso and Curtis Joseph are total locks IMHO. There's no way they should be kept out. After that, there are Olaf Kolzig, John Vanbiesbrouck, Mike Vernon, Mike Liut, Ron Hextall, and Mike Richter who all have solid cases. And then there are guys like Sean Burke, Andy Moog, and Kelly Hrudey sort of floating in the space between "strong case to be a HHOFer" and "not a chance".

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05-16-2013, 11:05 PM
  #242
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Exactly. Excluding older (European and American) players who will prob never get in, Lindros is the only major leftover so it won't even be harder to get in.

One poster said it's possible to play less than 500 games and break Gretzky's career scoring records. 2857 points \ 499 games = 5.75 PPG! I don't think so.
Yeah, I never said that. You should probably answer my post before you take it out of context and twist it to mean something it wasn't supposed to.

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05-16-2013, 11:09 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Excluding retirees who are not eligible until this summer or later (Hasek, Lidstrom, Chelios, Niedermayer, Blake, etc.), the following are players who played a significant portion of their career since 1980 and are (at least arguably) HHOF-worthy: Makarov, Kariya, Larmer, Fleury, Nicholls, Shanahan, Recchi, Wilson, Zubov, Ramsey...
Thanks for proving us right.

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05-16-2013, 11:10 PM
  #244
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Yeah, I never said that. You should probably answer my post before you take it out of context and twist it to mean something it wasn't supposed to.
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
...Hypothetical: Player comes to league with Gretzky-like performance. Basically re-writing record books. The player is forced to retire due to career ending injury after playing 6 seasons and under 500 games played...
Yes, you did.

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05-16-2013, 11:14 PM
  #245
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Yes, you did.
He didn't say anything about Gretzky's career scoring record. Your quote proves that.

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05-16-2013, 11:15 PM
  #246
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Yes, you did.
Gretzky-like performance. You really thought that I meant that this guy breaks the career records of Gretzky?
Are you being intentionally dense?

I meant that some player has first five years of his career where he is on the same level as Gretzky was. Being the undisputed best player in the world for 5 straight season's. Putting up few NHL records and winning few cups. Are you really going to keep that guy out of the Hall just cause he played under 500 games?

Or in your claim, under 650. What if Orr played 550 games instead of 657?

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05-17-2013, 12:26 AM
  #247
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Locks:
Chris Chelios
Scott Niedermayer
Guy Carbonneau
Brendan Shanahan

Solid Case:
Claude Lemieux
Tommy Barasso
Sergei Makarov

On the Bubble:
Eric Lindros
Pavel Bure
Mats Sundin

A Tier Below:
Curtis Joseph
Rob Blake
Brind' Amour
Paul Kariya
Phil Housley

Probably Too Little:
Keith Tkachuk
John Leclair
Jeremy Roenick
Theo Fleury
Gary Roberts
Kevin Lowe

Good Players
Peter Bondra
Markus Naslund
Dave Andreychuk
Bill Guerin


Each year, we will be adding many more and more players into those categories above 'Good Players'. Sometimes we will add more than 4 players to those list.


Last edited by Perfect_Drug: 05-17-2013 at 12:32 AM.
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05-17-2013, 12:48 AM
  #248
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Claude Lemieux is too high.

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05-17-2013, 12:58 AM
  #249
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Originally Posted by Perfect_Drug View Post
Locks:
Chris Chelios
Scott Niedermayer
Guy Carbonneau
Brendan Shanahan

Solid Case:
Claude Lemieux
Tommy Barasso
Sergei Makarov

On the Bubble:
Eric Lindros
Pavel Bure
Mats Sundin

A Tier Below:
Curtis Joseph
Rob Blake
Brind' Amour
Paul Kariya
Phil Housley

Probably Too Little:
Keith Tkachuk
John Leclair
Jeremy Roenick
Theo Fleury
Gary Roberts
Kevin Lowe

Good Players
Peter Bondra
Markus Naslund
Dave Andreychuk
Bill Guerin


Each year, we will be adding many more and more players into those categories above 'Good Players'. Sometimes we will add more than 4 players to those list.
Bure and Sundin are already in the HOF. Carbonneau is far from a lock. Blake should be higher, maybe even a lock. Andreychuk should be a lot of higher.

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05-17-2013, 03:52 AM
  #250
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Eh, I don't really see this being a factor. The first generation of NHLers to be heavily filled with Euros just retired
The first slovakian who scored 500 goals in nhl has no chance of getting in, the first american to do it is in. Im questioning HoF integrity not HFboard members.

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