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Peter Bondra, hockey hall of fame?

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Old
05-17-2013, 12:07 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Tom Barrasso and Curtis Joseph are total locks IMHO. There's no way they should be kept out. After that, there are Olaf Kolzig, John Vanbiesbrouck, Mike Vernon, Mike Liut, Ron Hextall, and Mike Richter who all have solid cases. And then there are guys like Sean Burke, Andy Moog, and Kelly Hrudey sort of floating in the space between "strong case to be a HHOFer" and "not a chance".
None of those goalies should get in. Liut is who I'd say is closest though.

Barrasso was a dickwad who was injured or under-performing more often than he was excelling. Over the course of his career, if you had Barrasso on your roster coming out of training camp, you were more likely to receive crap goaltending over the course of that season than quality goaltending.

Joseph never won a Cup, never won a Vezina, never a post-season All-Star. He's more of a pure compiler than Mike Gartner.

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05-17-2013, 12:12 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by MS View Post
None of those goalies should get in. Liut is who I'd say is closest though.

Barrasso was a dickwad who was injured or under-performing more often than he was excelling. Over the course of his career, if you had Barrasso on your roster coming out of training camp, you were more likely to receive crap goaltending over the course of that season than quality goaltending.

Joseph never won a Cup, never won a Vezina, never a post-season All-Star. He's more of a pure compiler than Mike Gartner.
Yea the compilling Joseph did for edmonton was really something

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05-17-2013, 12:25 PM
  #253
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Why is Rogy Vachon not in hull?

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05-17-2013, 12:27 PM
  #254
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
The first slovakian who scored 500 goals in nhl has no chance of getting in, the first american to do it is in. Im questioning HoF integrity not HFboard members.
that assumes that bondra and mullen had equal careers, which isn't true. i'm not saying mullen is a slam dunk hall of famer (i think he's a bubble guy but have no problem with him being in), and i'm not saying mullen didn't get a boost from being american (him being first ballot and bumping hawerchuk to his second year of eligibility is indefensible).

but mullen has:

1. led the league in playoff goal scoring twice (read: playoff ability and raising his game when it matters)
2. was a post-season all-star and led a stacked stanley cup winner in regular season goals, assists, and points, as well as of course playoff goals (read: high peak)

and re: comparison with bondra:

3. an underrated and much much much better defensive game than bondra (read: all-round ability)
4. didn't record 25-30 assists in his best years (read: not a one-trick pony offensively)

copied and pasted from a previous mullen HHOf thread:


Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
no, mullen shouldn't have been first ballot over hawerchuk. that's crazy. but i don't think he was as "hall of very good" as his resume looks in retrospect. compared to other 1,000 point scorers of his generation like federko, andreychuk, ciccarelli, gartner, nieuwendyk, he was definitely a cut above. his offensive peak was higher than all those guys, defensively he's definitely the best of that group, and how often did any of those guys even sniff a first team all-star appearance? mullen has a first place finish at RW, along with a 3rd, 4th, and 5th. his direct competitors at RW, gartner and dino, only finished higher than mullen four times between them, all in career years. for his era, mullen was probably behind only bossy, kurri, and anderson as the fourth best RW of the 80s. (fwiw, either gartner, dino, or tim kerr would likely be fifth.)

mullen was also an excellent playoff performer. in his first two trips to the finals, he finished third and second third in playoff scoring. he also led the league in playoff goals both times.

i think the best comparison to mullen career-wise is brian propp. a borderline HHOF guy at best, admittedly. but mullen is basically propp with an elite offensive peak and three cups, two as a key contributor. a clear low-rung hall of famer in my books.

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05-17-2013, 01:05 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
The first slovakian who scored 500 goals in nhl has no chance of getting in, the first american to do it is in. Im questioning HoF integrity not HFboard members.
Mullen's a special case, and I do think there was a little bit of pandering to Americans there. But he was still a better player than Bondra. Better regular season peak point producer, 1st Team All Star once, much better playoff performer.

Edit: Beaten (much more thoroughly) by vadim.

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05-17-2013, 03:10 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
that assumes that bondra and mullen had equal careers, which isn't true. i'm not saying mullen is a slam dunk hall of famer (i think he's a bubble guy but have no problem with him being in), and i'm not saying mullen didn't get a boost from being american (him being first ballot and bumping hawerchuk to his second year of eligibility is indefensible).

but mullen has:

1. led the league in playoff goal scoring twice (read: playoff ability and raising his game when it matters)
2. was a post-season all-star and led a stacked stanley cup winner in regular season goals, assists, and points, as well as of course playoff goals (read: high peak)

and re: comparison with bondra:

3. an underrated and much much much better defensive game than bondra (read: all-round ability)
4. didn't record 25-30 assists in his best years (read: not a one-trick pony offensively)

copied and pasted from a previous mullen HHOf thread:
1. Impressive, yet he only managed to have a .74 PPG in the playoffs during a highscoring era compared to Bondras .7.

2. He did have a great 89 season, true.

3. Cant argue with that

4. Mullens playmaking is only marginally better than Bondras.

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05-17-2013, 03:23 PM
  #257
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Solid Case:
Claude Lemieux
Tommy Barasso
Sergei Makarov

On the Bubble:
Eric Lindros
Pavel Bure
Mats Sundin
You think complimentary player Claude Lemieux has a better case for the HOF than Lindros, Bure and Sundin? OK....

In Montreal Roy and Chelios was obviously better than Lemieux, he also had decent teammates in Larry Robinson, Guy Carbonneau, Mats Näslund, Bobby Smith, Bob Gainey

In New Jersey he played with Brodeur, Stevens and Niedermayer and got outscored in the 95 playoffs by three of his forward teammates

In Colorado he played with Roy again, those guys Sakic and Forsberg, and got outscored in the playoffs by Kamensky, Ozolinsh, Deadmarsh, Young, Ricci and Uwe Krupp, sounds a bit Tomas Holmström-ish to me

Lemieux was a very good player and perfect to have on your team in the playoffs if you already had a star team. He could agitate like few and scored big goals. Like Brad Marchand. You think Marchand is projected for the HOF?

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05-17-2013, 04:48 PM
  #258
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
1. Impressive, yet he only managed to have a .74 PPG in the playoffs during a highscoring era compared to Bondras .7.

2. He did have a great 89 season, true.

3. Cant argue with that

4. Mullens playmaking is only marginally better than Bondras.
1. mullen played an exceptional number of playoff games after his prime, almost a third of the all the total playoff games he played were post-prime. that skews his career per game average. if you look just at his prime (everything up to 1991, when he was 33), he has 92 points in 102 games, or 0.90 PPG.

- 11th in total playoff points over that span

- 36th in PPG

- minimum 50 games, 27th in PPG

- minimum 75 games, 17th in PPG

- minimum 100 games, 9th in PPG

as we all know, it's harder to score the farther you go into the playoffs, so the more games you play over a concentrated period, the lower your PPG usually becomes.


i'd like to extend bondra the same courtesy of cutting off post-prime years, but it doesn't really make sense to. but here goes anyway:

'92-'98 (cutting off his first playoff year and all the ones after he turned 30), bondra is 47th in PPG with 45 points in 52 games. mullen was 36th during his cherry-picked prime years, even though it was a significantly longer span and we didn't take out any substandard pre-prime years (mullen doesn't have any).

restrict it to 50 games played and bondra is 23rd (vs. mullen's 27th). obviously we can't restrict it any further because bondra would no longer be on the list. which means that it makes no sense to make this comparison because bondra only got out of the first round twice in that span, as opposed to mullen, who made it out of the first round four times, including three runs to the finals.


4. well that's just plain not true. joe mullen wasn't martin st. louis or mark recchi, but:

mullen's top 100 assist finishes: 50, 27, 45, 53, 45, 12, x, x, 37 ('84-'92)

bondra's top 100 assist finishes: 56, x, x, x, 81, x, x, 74, 89 ('93-'01)

neither placed in the top 100 outside of those stretches. x marks years outside of top 100. bondra's best assist placement would be mullen's 8th best.

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05-17-2013, 04:53 PM
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
1. Impressive, yet he only managed to have a .74 PPG in the playoffs during a highscoring era compared to Bondras .7.

2. He did have a great 89 season, true.

3. Cant argue with that

4. Mullens playmaking is only marginally better than Bondras.
But you also have to look at peak playoff performances. Mullen has 3 nice runs. Bondra not one. Mullen was integral to Calgary in 1989. Had a nice run with Calgary in 1986 as well. Also, contributed nicely to the Pens in 1991. Overall three Cups and 4 Cup finals. That'll get your mug out there a lot more and have folks remember you.

Plus the best season Mullen had (1989) clearly trumps anything Bondra did. You could argue that Mullen is one of many HHOF players that has that one season that gets him over the hump for the HHOF. 1989 is that year. 110 points. 51 goals. First team all-star. Lady Byng. Led the NHL in plus minus. Won the Cup. Had a Smythe-worthy run. That's a heck of a season.

I wouldn't call Mullen the full package of a player by any means, but he clearly brought more to the table all around than Bondra, which tells you how little Bondra actually did it.

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05-17-2013, 05:02 PM
  #260
vadim sharifijanov
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to say one more thing about this mullen / bondra comparison, i'm curious how we collectively would rank the best of the borderline HHOF wingers of the 80s, 90s, 00s.

off the top of my head, that list would be: mullen, middleton, propp, gartner, ciccarelli, glenn anderson, larmer, claude lemieux, rick tocchet, fleury, bondra, kevin stevens, tkachuk, leclair, kariya, alfredsson, elias, hossa. arguably bure, i guess, and maybe arguably heatley too. i'm sure there are a few more i'm forgetting.

from my perspective, mullen's best comparables are middleton and propp, except he has the cups and the crazy peak year. in that other mullen thread, people had asked what separates mullen from guys like propp, middleton, bobby smith, bernie nicholls, and a few others. i think bobby smith and mullen are very very similar players. but one is in the HHOF and the other doesn't get brought up much because mullen is much higher in the rankings of best RW of his era than smith was to the C rankings. but by that token, i don't think you could make an argument for bondra being a top five RW of his era (jagr, bure, selanne obviously not; but then fleury, mogilny, palffy are almost certainly better players, to say nothing of legit arguments for nolan, lehtinen's a curveball, maybe even amonte).

whereas, the only RWs i'd even consider putting ahead of mullen in the 80s are bossy, kurri, and anderson, and anderson is debatable (but i guess then so are gartner, dino, and kerr from the other side). which is all to say, it's very hard to me to accept bondra as a HHOFer.

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05-17-2013, 05:36 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
to say one more thing about this mullen / bondra comparison, i'm curious how we collectively would rank the best of the borderline HHOF wingers of the 80s, 90s, 00s.

off the top of my head, that list would be: mullen, middleton, propp, gartner, ciccarelli, glenn anderson, larmer, claude lemieux, rick tocchet, fleury, bondra, kevin stevens, tkachuk, leclair, kariya, alfredsson, elias, hossa. arguably bure, i guess, and maybe arguably heatley too. i'm sure there are a few more i'm forgetting.

from my perspective, mullen's best comparables are middleton and propp, except he has the cups and the crazy peak year. in that other mullen thread, people had asked what separates mullen from guys like propp, middleton, bobby smith, bernie nicholls, and a few others. i think bobby smith and mullen are very very similar players. but one is in the HHOF and the other doesn't get brought up much because mullen is much higher in the rankings of best RW of his era than smith was to the C rankings. but by that token, i don't think you could make an argument for bondra being a top five RW of his era (jagr, bure, selanne obviously not; but then fleury, mogilny, palffy are almost certainly better players, to say nothing of legit arguments for nolan, lehtinen's a curveball, maybe even amonte).

whereas, the only RWs i'd even consider putting ahead of mullen in the 80s are bossy, kurri, and anderson, and anderson is debatable (but i guess then so are gartner, dino, and kerr from the other side). which is all to say, it's very hard to me to accept bondra as a HHOFer.
I'd say Brian Propp was generally a better player than Joe Mullen.

He didn't have a 110 point season (although his 1985-86 year, with 97 points in 72 games, would have been close if not for injury) but was better than Mullen offensively otherwise for the most part, while also being a better defensive and more physical player.

Both guys were great in the playoffs, but Mullen was lucky and Propp was unlucky on their long playoff runs. Propp actually scored 42 more playoff points than Mullen but Mullen won 3 cups to Propp's 0.

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05-17-2013, 07:47 PM
  #262
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I've made some changes, as noted in bold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfect_Drug View Post
Locks:
Chris Chelios
Scott Niedermayer
Guy Carbonneau On the Bubble. Excellent defensively, but his offense left something to be desired.
Brendan Shanahan

Solid Case:
Claude Lemieux
Tommy Barasso
Sergei Makarov Lock. Most deserving eligible player who has not been inducted

On the Bubble:
Eric Lindros Solid case. Great player but injuries really cut him short. Could even be upgraded to "lock".
Pavel Bure In the HHOF
Mats Sundin In the HHOF

A Tier Below:
Curtis Joseph Lock. No retired goalie not in the Hall has won more games; won games despite playing for bad teams.
Rob Blake Lock. Was better than Scott Niedermayer for most of their concurrent careers, and had a better NHL career
Brind' Amour On the bubble. Good career and two Selkes, but he was probably a second-tier player for too much of his career
Paul Kariya Solid case. Comparable NHL career to Pavel Bure, who was just inducted
Phil Housley Solid case. One of the better defensemen of his era overall, due primarily to his offensive numbers.

Probably Too Little:
Keith Tkachuk Solid case. Dominant power forward who could play all three positions and was responsible defensively.
John Leclair Solid case. Was the second-best LW and a top-five winger during the back half of the 90s. Was a key player in a Cup win. Good internationally and good defensively.
Jeremy Roenick Solid case. Elite player during the early 90s and had some excellent seasons around 2000.
Theo Fleury Solid case. Elite winger during the early 90s, one of the best offensive players
Gary Roberts
Kevin Lowe Why is Lowe ranked higher than Bondra? I'd induct Brad McCrimmon before Lowe.

Good Players
Peter Bondra
Markus Naslund Has a Pearson award and multiple first-team selections.
Dave Andreychuk A Tier Below. Did enough offensive to warrant consideration, even though he's likely not worthy of induction. Captained a Cup team.
Bill Guerin No.

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05-17-2013, 07:50 PM
  #263
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The first slovakian who scored 500 goals in nhl has no chance of getting in, the first american to do it is in. Im questioning HoF integrity not HFboard members.
Mullen's playoff resume is quite a bit better than Bondra's.

Scoring 16 playoff goals in his 1st of 3 SC's and leading the playoffs in goal scoring 2 times are all things that separate him from Bondra and it's something the HHOF people tend to favor over time.

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05-17-2013, 07:55 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
1. Impressive, yet he only managed to have a .74 PPG in the playoffs during a highscoring era compared to Bondras .7.
Bondra's last playoff season was at age 35, Mullen has 3 seasons at a ages 36,37 and 39 going 16-1-3-4 in those 3 years which makes it look closer than it really was.

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05-17-2013, 08:15 PM
  #265
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None of those goalies should get in. Liut is who I'd say is closest though.

Barrasso was a dickwad who was injured or under-performing more often than he was excelling. Over the course of his career, if you had Barrasso on your roster coming out of training camp, you were more likely to receive crap goaltending over the course of that season than quality goaltending.

Joseph never won a Cup, never won a Vezina, never a post-season All-Star. He's more of a pure compiler than Mike Gartner.
Outside of the Liut statement, which may or may not be accurate (winning the Pearson over Gretzky holds significant weight) everything in this post is wrong.

Barrasso has a Vezina win and several high finishes, and was the netminder for two Cup wins.

Joseph's top-five Vezina finishes: 2, 3, 3, 4, 5
While he may not have won the Vezina, he clearly was considered pretty damn good. By comparison, here are Peter Bondra's top-five All-Star finishes: 4, 4, 5, 5, 6
And here are Mike Gartner's: 4, 4, 5, 6, 7

So the compiler who has a career similar to Gartner's is not Joseph. It is, in fact, Bondra. Except Gartner scored 205 more goals and 443 more points in 351 more games, which is a near-50 goal pace and a 100+ point pace. Granted, there is the difference of era, but Gartner was clearly the better overall offensive player.

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05-18-2013, 02:59 AM
  #266
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
So the compiler who has a career similar to Gartner's is not Joseph. It is, in fact, Bondra. Except Gartner scored 205 more goals and 443 more points in 351 more games, which is a near-50 goal pace and a 100+ point pace. Granted, there is the difference of era, but Gartner was clearly the better overall offensive player.
Except that Bondra was no compiler. You don't compile goals by being the league leader in goalscoring for several years.

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05-18-2013, 09:47 AM
  #267
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Except that Bondra was no compiler. You don't compile goals by being the league leader in goalscoring for several years.
He did it twice. Ron Francis is called a compiler and led the league in assists twice, and was top-ten TWELVE times.

He also scored 46 more career goals than Bondra.

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05-18-2013, 11:04 AM
  #268
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He did it twice. Ron Francis is called a compiler and led the league in assists twice, and was top-ten TWELVE times.

He also scored 46 more career goals than Bondra.
If Bondra and Francis are compilers then Joseph is too

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05-18-2013, 11:11 AM
  #269
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If Bondra and Francis are compilers then Joseph is too
Joseph was considered a top player at his position on multiple occasions, something the other two can't claim. Either Bondra and Francis are both compilers, or neither are.

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05-18-2013, 11:25 AM
  #270
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Bondra might be a better player than Steve Shutt but its not due to era.The 1970'-s may have been the most violent era in modern hockey.The hooking slashing cross checking bench clearing brawls would have led to year long bans in today'-s ***** hockey.

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05-18-2013, 12:11 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Outside of the Liut statement, which may or may not be accurate (winning the Pearson over Gretzky holds significant weight) everything in this post is wrong.

Barrasso has a Vezina win and several high finishes, and was the netminder for two Cup wins.

Joseph's top-five Vezina finishes: 2, 3, 3, 4, 5
While he may not have won the Vezina, he clearly was considered pretty damn good. By comparison, here are Peter Bondra's top-five All-Star finishes: 4, 4, 5, 5, 6
And here are Mike Gartner's: 4, 4, 5, 6, 7

So the compiler who has a career similar to Gartner's is not Joseph. It is, in fact, Bondra. Except Gartner scored 205 more goals and 443 more points in 351 more games, which is a near-50 goal pace and a 100+ point pace. Granted, there is the difference of era, but Gartner was clearly the better overall offensive player.
Barrasso had some high peaks, but more of his career was low valleys. He had more seasons where he was an injured or below-average goaltender than he did where he was an above-average goaltender. He had a two-season blip to start his career, and for the remaining nearly 20 years had 2 legitimately excellent regular seasons (both of which were followed up by poor playoffs) and two excellent playoffs (both of which followed mediocre regular seasons).

Barrasso was also a first-class jackass who earned the 'Tom Bara$$hole' nickname for a reason. One of the surliest players in NHL history, and how you carry yourself is something that matters as well.

Joseph neither won a Vezina, nor a Cup, nor was named a post-season All-Star. There isn't a goalie inducted into the HHOF in the modern era that you can say that about, so he's hardly a lock. Rogie Vachon was also 5th in all-time wins when he retired, and has two Cups, two post-season All-Star selections, and a dominant Canada Cup on his resume. He isn't in. Joseph is behind Vachon, at the very least. And I'd have him behind Liut, as well.

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05-18-2013, 12:43 PM
  #272
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Barrasso had some high peaks, but more of his career was low valleys. He had more seasons where he was an injured or below-average goaltender than he did where he was an above-average goaltender. He had a two-season blip to start his career, and for the remaining nearly 20 years had 2 legitimately excellent regular seasons (both of which were followed up by poor playoffs) and two excellent playoffs (both of which followed mediocre regular seasons).

Barrasso was also a first-class jackass who earned the 'Tom Bara$$hole' nickname for a reason. One of the surliest players in NHL history, and how you carry yourself is something that matters as well.

Joseph neither won a Vezina, nor a Cup, nor was named a post-season All-Star. There isn't a goalie inducted into the HHOF in the modern era that you can say that about, so he's hardly a lock. Rogie Vachon was also 5th in all-time wins when he retired, and has two Cups, two post-season All-Star selections, and a dominant Canada Cup on his resume. He isn't in. Joseph is behind Vachon, at the very least. And I'd have him behind Liut, as well.
Joseph is definitly not a lock, quite true that he misses some intangibles in the most likely strongest goalie era.

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05-18-2013, 01:03 PM
  #273
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Barrasso was also a first-class jackass who earned the 'Tom Bara$$hole' nickname for a reason. One of the surliest players in NHL history, and how you carry yourself is something that matters as well.
In that case The Rocket might be in some trouble by that standard. I'm sorry but you can't let your personal feeling for a player whether good or bad color your assessment of their playing careers. There's certainly plenty of players I have a keen dislike of but I'd never dream of allowing that to influence my views of them as a player.

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05-18-2013, 01:18 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
In that case The Rocket might be in some trouble by that standard. I'm sorry but you can't let your personal feeling for a player whether good or bad color your assessment of their playing careers. There's certainly plenty of players I have a keen dislike of but I'd never dream of allowing that to influence my views of them as a player.
Criteria for induction into the Hockey Hall of Fame :

"Playing ability, sportsmanship, character and their contribution to the team or teams and to the game of hockey in general.

If you're an all-time great like Eddie Shore, this isn't going to matter too much.

If you're an extremely marginal guy like Barrasso in terms of what you did on the ice, the fact that you were notorious for treating fans, media, and your backup goalies like garbage absolutely matters.

This is one of the reasons I don't have a problem with Lanny McDonald's induction and do have a problem with Dino Ciccarelli's. There's more to being a 'legend' than just how many goals you scored or how many saves you made.

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05-18-2013, 01:51 PM
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sillygoose
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
1. mullen played an exceptional number of playoff games after his prime, almost a third of the all the total playoff games he played were post-prime. that skews his career per game average. if you look just at his prime (everything up to 1991, when he was 33), he has 92 points in 102 games, or 0.90 PPG.

- 11th in total playoff points over that span

- 36th in PPG

- minimum 50 games, 27th in PPG

- minimum 75 games, 17th in PPG

- minimum 100 games, 9th in PPG

as we all know, it's harder to score the farther you go into the playoffs, so the more games you play over a concentrated period, the lower your PPG usually becomes.


i'd like to extend bondra the same courtesy of cutting off post-prime years, but it doesn't really make sense to. but here goes anyway:

'92-'98 (cutting off his first playoff year and all the ones after he turned 30), bondra is 47th in PPG with 45 points in 52 games. mullen was 36th during his cherry-picked prime years, even though it was a significantly longer span and we didn't take out any substandard pre-prime years (mullen doesn't have any).

restrict it to 50 games played and bondra is 23rd (vs. mullen's 27th). obviously we can't restrict it any further because bondra would no longer be on the list. which means that it makes no sense to make this comparison because bondra only got out of the first round twice in that span, as opposed to mullen, who made it out of the first round four times, including three runs to the finals.


4. well that's just plain not true. joe mullen wasn't martin st. louis or mark recchi, but:

mullen's top 100 assist finishes: 50, 27, 45, 53, 45, 12, x, x, 37 ('84-'92)

bondra's top 100 assist finishes: 56, x, x, x, 81, x, x, 74, 89 ('93-'01)

neither placed in the top 100 outside of those stretches. x marks years outside of top 100. bondra's best assist placement would be mullen's 8th best.
Do you completely ignore goal scoring averages in the years you're bringing up league wide, or are you just assuming they scored equal amounts of goals each game. I don't know for sure, but I'd bet in the SC finals goal scoring was as high if not higher then the first round in some of Bondra's first round years. And yea Bondra's team didn't win the Cup, it wasn't because Bondra sucked.

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