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Peter Bondra, hockey hall of fame?

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Old
05-14-2013, 09:12 PM
  #201
Theokritos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
It was kind of implied.
Where exactly? If you are thinking of the following remarks...

Quote:
Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
Bondra was Washington's Ovechkin before Ovechkin. He was a franchise player along with Kolzig.
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
I mean why they ment to their respective teams. I'm not comparing Bondra to OVechkin
...then I think it's obvious that nothing of that kind was really implied here.

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05-14-2013, 09:13 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Dissonance View Post
Yeah, that's not a bad metric at all. At minimum, I think, you want the dozen or so superstars who defined an era in the HHOF. So if we took the top 15 scorers from the dead-puck decade (1994-95 to 2003-04), we'd have:

Jagr
Sakic
Selanne
Sundin
Forsberg
Francis
Kariya
Modano
Recchi
Tkachuk
Hull
Weight
Shanahan
Palffy
Oates

Weight and Palffy look a little funny on that list, so swap them out for Lindros and Bure, who ought to be gimmes--both jaw-dropping players who'll be talked about decades from now. Put in Fedorov instead of Tkachuk, especially since Tkachuk vanished when it mattered. That leaves Bondra, Fleury, LeClair, and Roenick all on the cusp (I could honestly go either way on those players). That's a fine batch of HOF forwards, and in line with the number of inductees from other eras...
Francis makes the list from 84-85 through 93-94; Oates barely misses.

So there's two spots already opened up. Leclair belongs; after Kariya he was the dominant LW of the late 90s. And both Fleury and Roenick have good arguments, and some of their best years came before 1994-95.

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Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
Bondra was always a threat to score. If you put players like him in though then you might as well consider Ray Sheppard also.

Not HHOF worthy IMO.
Ray Sheppard's display would have to be placed immediately to the right of Steve Yzerman's for any legitimacy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by I Am Score* View Post
Why this guy isn't considered a shoe-in to the Hall of Fame is beyond me. Let's look at his resume:

Played 1000 Games
One of The Fastest To 500 goals
Nearly 1000 points (892)
One Of The Best Slovakian Players Ever


Reached 500 goals faster than:

(Bold are Hall of Famers)

Jean Beliveau
Brendan Shanahan
Mike Modano
Mats Sundin
Jarome Iginla

And was less than 10 games within these players when he reached 500:

Gordie Howe
Mark Messier

Joe Sakic


What do you guys think about this travesty?
Hmm. Let's start by comparing him to the right wingers on the list.

Bondra vs. Howe:
Gordie Howe was a six time Art Ross winner and six-time Hart winner who was top-five in points twenty consecutive seasons. He was also excellent defensively and considered by many to be "the most feared man in hockey".

Here's what Lou Fontinato, the league's then-heavyweight champ, looked like after a fight with Howe:



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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
I don't deny Bure was scorer on his own, but again - he scored comparable amount of points during his second prime in DPE like Bondra. There was no 100 point season with Kozlov or Niedermayer, barely 90. Unlike Selanne, he had no Kariya on his wing who scores 40+ with or without Selanne and was probably the TOP3 player on the world at the moment.
To who should Bondra pass his passes? To the great Keith Jones? Or magnificent scorers Adam Oates and Richard Zednik?
Adam Oates scored 45 goals in 1992-93, and 32 the next year. Do you know what the only difference is (statistically) in his goal scoring between those years and others? He had a high number of PPG (24 and 16), compared to very few in other seasons (7 in 95-96 is his third-highest). So I would imagine if Bondra had passed the puck to Oates on the PP, then yes, Bondra would have gotten assists. But then, would he have scored as many goals? Uh oh. Hm. Likely not. So he would have had a more balanced offensive line, but still no HHOF chances. Because he's not good enough. And for reference: Oates was near PPG while with Washington, and had 68 points in 66 games the season he was traded away. So don't both working up a "Oates wasn't good anymore" argument. Because it's wrong.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Palffy was much better than Bondra at creating offense for his NHL teams. Bondra has better longevity though.

I value peak/prime most of all, so I would definitely induct Palffy over Bondra.
The bolded is absolutely false. Palffy chose to retire, while still playing at a high level.

Here are the numbers for both players through the age Palffy retired at:

Bondra 821GP, 421-313-734
Palffy 689GP, 329-384-713

Comparable in total points, Bondra has the advantage in goals and GPG, Palffy has the advantage everywhere else. And that's not even considering that Bondra started his career in 90-91 and most of his prime actually occurred before the DPE (97-98 through 03-04) including a career-high 48 assists and 85 points in 1992-93.

Palffy, meanwhile, played his first full season in 1994-95, and that was one of only three years in his career that he was below PPG; 1993-94 (5 games, no points); 1994-95 (33 games, 17 points); and 2001-02 (59 points in 63 games). He scored 42 in 42 in 2005-06, his last season.

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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
On a per game basis he was. Palffy just didn't/couldn't last as long as Bondra for some reason
Palffy was a better player when he retired than Bondra was at the same age, and he was a better player overall than Bondra too. Palffy has a comparable GPG (slightly behind if you don't include Bondra's "longevity" years, and ahead if you do) and is way ahead in APG and PPG. Bondra had four seasons in his career that were PPG+ (only one in the DPE); Palffy had nine (seven in the DPE).

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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
I would put him in. Sort of a simple game...skate fast, shoot hard, but he skated awful fast and shot awful hard.

Late bloomer still scores 500 in that era, I'd give him a look.
Bondra scored half of his goals pre-DPE. Look it up.

Quote:
If trashy motorcycle sidecar like Glenn Anderson is in the hall, there's no good reason to keep a sports car like Bondra out.
Anderson was a key player on several Cup teams, an excellent postseason player, and was capable of finishing top three at his position in all-star voting. And he's still considered borderline.

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05-14-2013, 10:11 PM
  #203
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I'm all for elevating a guy when he is the face of a franchise. However, the Washington Capitals of that era? I think there were 20 players who could have been a better face for the franchise for that team. Take away Ovy, and the Caps have a very small pool of all-time great players to choose from so even lumping him in there doesn't make it any more special to me especially when the team wasn't succesful during his time.

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05-14-2013, 10:16 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I understand what you mean but generally people tend to value goals more than assists.

How is that going to affect Henrik Sedin's case?
I fell that Sedin is going to the Hall based on the trivial fact that he and his twin brother won back-2-back Art Ross Trophies. He might have some ground to stand on anyway, but I don't see either of them getting in without the twin-factor.

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05-14-2013, 11:36 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
Where exactly? If you are thinking of the following remarks...
I quoted Hobnobs and even highlighted where he makes the assertion, didn't you see it?

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05-14-2013, 11:42 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
I fell that Sedin is going to the Hall based on the trivial fact that he and his twin brother won back-2-back Art Ross Trophies. He might have some ground to stand on anyway, but I don't see either of them getting in without the twin-factor.
I would agree although I wonder how the HHOF will view them if they go to Sweden after the 14 season and their contracts are up.

They have slipped in production 3 years straight and don't offer all that much except their production, and that's with a close to 70% offensive zone start rate in those 3 declining years to boot, the real decline is greater than the numbers IMO.

Some to watch and see how it develops for sure.

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05-15-2013, 03:12 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I quoted Hobnobs and even highlighted where he makes the assertion, didn't you see it?
The sentence you have highlighted is: "Bondra was better than Tkachuk unless we really want to overvalue physical play".

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05-15-2013, 03:25 AM
  #208
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Noone ever have said that Bondra is better than Ovechkin. My replies were meant in this sense (as counter argument against TDMM I think):
We can't hold against Bondra the fact there was not a demand of him in contenders. We really don't know, because Bondra had in Capitals franchise the same value at the time as has Ovechkin to them now. Ovechkin was not sold yet to contender, is this point used against him too?

The comparision against Tkachuk and LeClair is bit weird, because they were power-forward who scored a lot of garbage goals from crease and brought a physicality on the ice. On the other hand Bondra brought pure sniping and speed. I do believe Bondra was clearly a better goalscorer than these two. Clearly.

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05-15-2013, 08:12 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
Noone ever have said that Bondra is better than Ovechkin. My replies were meant in this sense (as counter argument against TDMM I think):
We can't hold against Bondra the fact there was not a demand of him in contenders. We really don't know, because Bondra had in Capitals franchise the same value at the time as has Ovechkin to them now. Ovechkin was not sold yet to contender, is this point used against him too?

The comparision against Tkachuk and LeClair is bit weird, because they were power-forward who scored a lot of garbage goals from crease and brought a physicality on the ice. On the other hand Bondra brought pure sniping and speed. I do believe Bondra was clearly a better goalscorer than these two. Clearly.
A goal is a goal is a goal. As far as Bondra's value to the team compared to Ovechkin's value; Bondra wasn't worth nearly as much to the Caps as Ovechkin has been. Using adjusted points, Ovechkin's worst season is the only one that is worse than Bondra's BEST season. Bondra played with plenty of skilled players, such as Kevin Hatcher, Al Iafrate, Mike Ridley, Adam Oates, Joe Juneau, Calle Johansson, Michal Pivonka, and Sergei Gonchar, Olaf Kolzig. Yes, Ovechkin has played with skilled players, but he has led the team in scoring every season, generally by a wide margin. Bondra either barely led or didn't lead in most years.

But looking at stats, it's pretty clear that Bondra was NOT a better goal scorer than those two. And both of those players also brought a significant physical presence and defensive play.


Last edited by pdd: 05-15-2013 at 09:56 PM.
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05-15-2013, 10:41 AM
  #210
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
How so? I think their stats were very similar, and while I realize physical play is sometimes overrated, it does bring something.
Both of them were basically goal scorers and while Tkachuk added physical play to his goal scoring, Bondra were a much better scorer and skater. Tkachuk won the scoring title once and never again was a top-5 scorer in the league (Bondra won twice and had two 4th places).

Bondra was a slightly better playoff performer and drew penalties instead of taking them.

Tkachuk was the better player in his twillight than Bondra was in his tho.

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05-15-2013, 10:44 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
A goal is a goal is a goal. As far as Bondra's value to the team compared to Ovechkin's value; Bondra wasn't worth nearly as much to the Caps as Ovechkin has been. Using adjusted points, Ovechkin's worst season is the only one that is worse than Bondra's BEST season. Bondra played with plenty of skilled players, such as Kevin Hatcher, Al Iafrate, Mike Ridley, Adam Oates, Joe Juneau, Calle Johansson, Michal Pivonka, and Sergei Gonchar, Olaf Kolzig. Yes, Ovechkin has played with skilled players, but he has led the team in scoring every season, generally by a wide margin. Bondra either barely led or didn't lead in most years.

From 1994-95 through 99-00, Leclair was second in goals, Bondra fourth, and Tkachuk fifth. For the DPE (which encompasses the most of the primes of all three players), Tkachuk was 4th, Bondra was 21st, and Leclair was 23rd (4 behind Bondra). Leclair obviously had his injury problems around 2000.

It's pretty clear that Bondra was NOT a better goal scorer than those two. And both of those players also brought a significant physical presence and defensive play.
The DPE era is usually counted from the '97 season until the lockout in which Bondra was second in overall scoring. On a per game basis Tkachuk was better than both Bondra and LeClair.

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05-15-2013, 12:29 PM
  #212
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Er.....John LeClair had three 50 goal seasons in a row followed by a 43/40 goal season followed by a career ruining injury. Maybe you can turn two of his 50 goal seasons into 40s because they started in '95 but that's still pretty damn impressive all things considered. He was also heeluva impressive in their 97 playoff run to the final. He was a huge difference maker along with CAPTAIN Tkachuk in comparison.

If you wanna argue for a Slovakian player then you can argue for Hossa maybe because he'll likely reach 1000 pts, has performed well in the playoffs, and actually has a semblance of an all-round game but he likely won't get in either.

If you're gonna make an argument for pts and goals then Phil Housley had 1200+ pts....AS A DMAN. But like Bondra, he doesn't have post-season accomplishments and other dmen outweigh him in terms of an all-round game so he has not gotten in either.

It'll be Lindros/Kariya and then maybe a Makarov or Fleury before Bondra even gets considered not to mention the backlog of 90s dmen that are being added to the nominee list.

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05-15-2013, 12:55 PM
  #213
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Bondra will get in....he was one of the best at his job and that was to score goals.

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05-15-2013, 09:54 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
The DPE era is usually counted from the '97 season until the lockout in which Bondra was second in overall scoring. On a per game basis Tkachuk was better than both Bondra and LeClair.
I apparently had an age filter attached when I searched the years (which obviously affected the results). Still, Tkachuk comes out with better GPG and Leclair is nearly identical, despite the severe injury.

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05-15-2013, 10:00 PM
  #215
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Surprised this thread has gone on for this long. I really loved Bondra, even though he was a Rangers killer, but I feel like he's the perfect example of a great player who is not quite a HOFer. I would be astounded if he got in.

And that's no knock on him, he was an amazing goal scorer.

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05-15-2013, 10:04 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by I Am Score* View Post
You don't live in Washington do you lol.

Bondra is absolutely huge around here. Even as it stands, I would argue he was a better player than Ovechkin at this point.

And what time did Bondra play in? That's what I thought.
...what on earth?

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05-15-2013, 10:10 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
Bondra will get in....he was one of the best at his job and that was to score goals.
He will not get in. He was never considered as a top-3 in his position. Doesn't that sound weird to you? A guy who is best in the world at doing what he is supposed to do is not considered even third best player on his own position. Why would that be?

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05-15-2013, 10:23 PM
  #218
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Peter Bondra, hockey hall of fame?

No.

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05-15-2013, 11:04 PM
  #219
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Absolutely not. No all star selections. Never top 10 in points scoring. 2 goal scoring titles and a few other top 10 finishes are not impressive in the grand scheme. Even in his best seasons, he was 4th among RW's, which puts him in the vicinity of just on or outside the top 10 players in his best years. The hall of fame is for guys who were the best. Not very good.
Agreed. Also my philosophy on all the current skaters is I think you should play 650 RS games to be eligible as a skater. Some players I would not vote for right now include Crosby, Spezza, Getzlaf, OV, and Malkin. I'm not trolling or saying they will not be worthy someday, they just have not played enough hockey.

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05-15-2013, 11:22 PM
  #220
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Agreed. Also my philosophy on all the current skaters is I think you should play 650 RS games to be eligible as a skater. Some players I would not vote for right now include Crosby, Spezza, Getzlaf, OV, and Malkin. I'm not trolling or saying they will not be worthy someday, they just have not played enough hockey.
Well, sounds reasonable. But I don't think there should be some certain amount of games required for eligibility.

Hypothetical: Player comes to league with Gretzky-like performance. Basically re-writing record books. The player is forced to retire due to career ending injury after playing 6 seasons and under 500 games played. Winning two Cups and being the undisputed best player every single year.

The guy belongs in the hall. If there is a strict rule for certain amount of games then there is not equal chance for everyone. Some player might have to hang them up for a reasons not for their own.

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05-15-2013, 11:25 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Well, sounds reasonable. But I don't think there should be some certain amount of games required for eligibility. Hypothetical: Player comes to league with Gretzky-like performance. Basically re-writing record books. The player is forced to retire due to career ending injury after playing 6 seasons and under 500 games played. Winning two Cups and being the undisputed best player every single year. The guy belongs in the hall. If there is a strict rule for certain amount of games then there is not equal chance for everyone. Some player might have to hang them up for a reasons not for their own.
If you have to create an impossible scenario...

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05-15-2013, 11:37 PM
  #222
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If you have to create an impossible scenario...
I know, it is pretty far fetched. But there once was a guy who played 657 games and he is pretty slam dunk Hall of Famer. What if Orr would have hanged the skates 50 games earlier?

By putting up a strict game limit for induction we are basically removing a problem that really doesn't exist but creating a possibility for another problem.

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05-16-2013, 02:00 AM
  #223
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
He will not get in. He was never considered as a top-3 in his position. Doesn't that sound weird to you? A guy who is best in the world at doing what he is supposed to do is not considered even third best player on his own position. Why would that be?
Well, a whole bunch of guys who were really never truly top-3 at RW are already in - Mike Gartner, Dino Ciccarelli and Joe Mullen.

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05-16-2013, 02:11 AM
  #224
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Agreed. Also my philosophy on all the current skaters is I think you should play 650 RS games to be eligible as a skater. Some players I would not vote for right now include Crosby, Spezza, Getzlaf, OV, and Malkin. I'm not trolling or saying they will not be worthy someday, they just have not played enough hockey.
What? Why 650? Because Bobby Orr has to be in? What if he played 557? Then it would be 550 minimum? No. This is perfect example that Bobby Orr was extraordinary player no matter how many games he played.
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Well, a whole bunch of guys who were really never truly top-3 at RW are already in - Mike Gartner, Dino Ciccarelli and Joe Mullen.
Very good point, altough the answer will be in a sense we should not lower the bar with another screwed nominations.


Last edited by begbeee: 05-16-2013 at 04:25 AM. Reason: grammar editing
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05-16-2013, 03:56 AM
  #225
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Well, a whole bunch of guys who were really never truly top-3 at RW are already in - Mike Gartner, Dino Ciccarelli and Joe Mullen.
Good point. I think they should have not gotten in either. But the thing is, all of these guys have top-10 point finishes.

They are all also 1000+ point players, well Gartner has 1300+ and Ciccarelli has 1200. Bondra has less than 900. I know the era means a lot, but HoF induction is often based on raw totals.

Maybe the inflated 80's numbers helped too. But even if there has been weak inductions does not mean Bondra will get in. I actually think all those guys were better than Bondra. You are not going to win a lot scoring titles playing against Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, Kurri, Hull, Bossy,...

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