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2009 NLCS: Philadelphia Phillies vs. Los Angeles Dodgers Redux

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Old
10-13-2009, 04:55 PM
  #76
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He'll be back. He came back strong this year, and someone out there will be willing to give him five or six million. He can still coax enough saves to hit 400.

The ideal side of me would love to see him retire though.
I'd rather see him back in a Mets uniform and blowing saves against the Phils...

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10-13-2009, 05:12 PM
  #77
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Times have been announced, all games will be at 8:07 ET except Game Two, which will be at 4:07 ET. And as mentioned before, they're all on TBS. That's awesome for me. I'll be able to watch all of the games, I thought I was going to miss Friday because I've got a game at 8:45.

http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com...x.jsp?c_id=phi

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10-13-2009, 06:11 PM
  #78
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Times have been announced, all games will be at 8:07 ET except Game Two, which will be at 4:07 ET. And as mentioned before, they're all on TBS. That's awesome for me. I'll be able to watch all of the games, I thought I was going to miss Friday because I've got a game at 8:45.

http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com...x.jsp?c_id=phi
I can't wait to tailgate all day before I go to game 3.

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Old
10-13-2009, 07:54 PM
  #79
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The solution is to not watch ESPN.
Kind of hard when you work at a restaurant with 12 TV's showing ESPN from open to close.

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10-13-2009, 08:10 PM
  #80
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Kind of hard when you work at a restaurant with 12 TV's showing ESPN from open to close.
Well then you have my pity.

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Old
10-13-2009, 11:38 PM
  #81
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This. This has nothing to do with being brutal honest with "bad" fans. He's a jerk for disrespecting an opponent, a former teammate, and a fellow player. Pat the Bat burned him, but he didn't need to say that. Jerk thing to say.
Dude, he was dead on in what he said about Burrell. Moreover, Burrell should have been publicly called out on that crap by the Phils years before. If he'd ever learned how to be a real hitter he would have been a perennial All-Star given his natural power.

As said, you can say PC things and no one cares...then there's the brutal honesty without a filter. No one that watched the course of Burrell's career wouldn't agree with Wagner about what he said.

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10-14-2009, 12:05 AM
  #82
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Dude, he was dead on in what he said about Burrell. Moreover, Burrell should have been publicly called out on that crap by the Phils years before. If he'd ever learned how to be a real hitter he would have been a perennial All-Star given his natural power.

As said, you can say PC things and no one cares...then there's the brutal honesty without a filter. No one that watched the course of Burrell's career wouldn't agree with Wagner about what he said.
Are you kidding? Fans LOVED Burrell because even when he was at his worst you could see that he was trying 100% and he always took responsibility for his shrotcomings. If Wagner (and you) are right the person who needed to be called out was Milt Thompson for being a crummy hitting coach. Which, by the way, he isn't.

And don't say that I'm basing this off 2008. I distinctly remember that it was in the middle of the 2006 season when fans came around to Pat the Bat.

Furthermore, the entire Burrell / "rat" incident was started when Wagner said we had no chance to make the playoffs. He probably would have said we had no chance to win last night either. We don't need a jerk with a negative attitude like that. BASEBALL doesn't need a jerk with a negative attitude like that.

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10-14-2009, 12:58 AM
  #83
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Billy Wagner is a borderline retard and a guy who crumbles under pressure. Not sure why you guys are even discussing him in this thread.

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10-14-2009, 01:14 AM
  #84
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Are you kidding? Fans LOVED Burrell because even when he was at his worst you could see that he was trying 100% and he always took responsibility for his shrotcomings. If Wagner (and you) are right the person who needed to be called out was Milt Thompson for being a crummy hitting coach. Which, by the way, he isn't.
Dude...you're living in a fantasy world. Until 2008 Burrell was blasted for his contract and the fact that he never achieved a level of play on par with that contract. Moreover, Burrell NEVER made a committed effort to adjusting to how pitchers threw to him -- thus the fact that the way to pitch Burrell never changed.

He had the breakout season in 2002, but then teams got the book on him and the fact that he never adjusted to the low and away slider relegated him to being a good, but not great hitter. He had a swing that could hammer fastballs and mistakes over the plate, but if you pitched him smartly he was an easy out.

As to the Milt Thompson comment...he was not the hitting coach for the majority of his tenure in Philadelphia. Additionally, I don't think it was any coach's fault...it was publicly reported that numerous coaches (including Charlie) tried to coach Burrell up on the holes in his swing, and he didn't change it.

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And don't say that I'm basing this off 2008. I distinctly remember that it was in the middle of the 2006 season when fans came around to Pat the Bat.
That's some serious revisionist history. The winter before 2008 people were trying to figure out if we could dump him.

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Furthermore, the entire Burrell / "rat" incident was started when Wagner said we had no chance to make the playoffs. He probably would have said we had no chance to win last night either. We don't need a jerk with a negative attitude like that. BASEBALL doesn't need a jerk with a negative attitude like that.
If you're referencing the year we made the comeback...our own GM didn't think we had a chance to make the playoffs. Really not such an awful thing to state. Not sure it's being a "jerk" to say you don't think a baseball team can win baseball games...

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10-14-2009, 09:15 AM
  #85
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That's some serious revisionist history. The winter before 2008 people were trying to figure out if we could dump him.
Nope. A 5 minute search failed me, but last year before we actually won there was an excellent retrospective in the Inquirer about how the fans came around to him. I distinctly remember being one of them. That doesn't mean we didn't want to dump his salary - it means we wouldn't and didn't **** on him like Wags did.

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If you're referencing the year we made the comeback...our own GM didn't think we had a chance to make the playoffs. Really not such an awful thing to state. Not sure it's being a "jerk" to say you don't think a baseball team can win baseball games...
Actually it was a year or two before that. My point is that Wagner isn't a team player the way Utley, Werth, and Howard were on Monday, or even the way Burrell was. He didn't say he didn't think a baseball team could win, he said HIS baseball team couldn't win. Think about what that does to your teammates.

I'm not at all sorry to see his career end.

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Old
10-14-2009, 09:24 AM
  #86
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Yeah Wagner had a good career, was really the first closer I got excited for. Always fun watcing him hit 100, but, as the rest of you said, won't be sad to see him go.

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Old
10-14-2009, 10:08 AM
  #87
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Burrell definetely got **** on in this town, but at the end he was appreciated.

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Old
10-14-2009, 10:17 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Unstable View Post
Nope. A 5 minute search failed me, but last year before we actually won there was an excellent retrospective in the Inquirer about how the fans came around to him. I distinctly remember being one of them. That doesn't mean we didn't want to dump his salary - it means we wouldn't and didn't **** on him like Wags did.
Did you come around on him in 2006? Sure, I don't know. However, the vast majority of the opinion about Burrell remained "bum" until 2008. And, yes, it was silly. He got lambasted for his struggles with the low and away slider...he got lambasted for his fielding...he got lambasted for partying too much...

Of course, Phillies fans as a majority have been absurd with regard to this club the last few years...which is why Rollins' front runner comment was dead on as well.

Quote:
Actually it was a year or two before that. My point is that Wagner isn't a team player the way Utley, Werth, and Howard were on Monday, or even the way Burrell was. He didn't say he didn't think a baseball team could win, he said HIS baseball team couldn't win. Think about what that does to your teammates.

I'm not at all sorry to see his career end.
That's all fine and good, but as said...speak your mind and you're an ass, don't speak your mind you're boring and forgettable. Did he put his foot in his mouth with regularity, absolutely.

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Burrell definetely got **** on in this town, but at the end he was appreciated.
Yeah, the renaissance that took place his final year and how it's washed away all memory of how he was viewed in the years prior to that is friggin amazing.

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Old
10-14-2009, 10:48 AM
  #89
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The funny thing is Burrell was never that bad, he put very solid power numbers for the most part. He got blasted for making the same mistakes over and over again year in and year out. He never learned to not swing at a slider or curveball low and away. A lot of it also had to do with the fact that people saw the potential in him to be something special, and he never realized his potential so people were always wanting more out of him.

I think the last year he was here the town saw him finally trying, finally busting his butt, and saw his enthusiasm and watched him improve somewhat, and that coupled with the fact that they won a championship and he always seemed like a pretty cool dude, and you get what happened. Everyone forgot and appreciated him.

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10-14-2009, 11:00 AM
  #90
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The funny thing is Burrell was never that bad, he put very solid power numbers for the most part. He got blasted for making the same mistakes over and over again year in and year out. He never learned to not swing at a slider or curveball low and away. A lot of it also had to do with the fact that people saw the potential in him to be something special, and he never realized his potential so people were always wanting more out of him.

I think the last year he was here the town saw him finally trying, finally busting his butt, and saw his enthusiasm and watched him improve somewhat, and that coupled with the fact that they won a championship and he always seemed like a pretty cool dude, and you get what happened. Everyone forgot and appreciated him.
He was a victim of that contract.

I will always be curious what might have happened with him if he hadn't had that huge year and then gotten that huge contract so early. Financially, he never had the incentive to figure out the low and away breaking pitch. And while I absolutely agree that it is unfair to reduce it to money like that, I do think it was a factor in the arc of his career.

Personally, I think his natural power wasn't far shy of Howard's, and both actually have similar faults to their approach at the plate. However, Howard is vastly more efficient than Burrell so it covers up a lot of his problems.

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Old
10-14-2009, 11:29 AM
  #91
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Burrell was supposed to be the franchise player. When he didn't have to be anymore (since they got better players), then people were fine with him.

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10-14-2009, 11:45 AM
  #92
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Burrell was supposed to be the franchise player. When he didn't have to be anymore (since they got better players), then people were fine with him.
I'd replace supposed to be with "should have been." He had years and years to learn to lay off that down and away slider and he never learned how, that was pretty much all that separated him from a much better career.

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Old
10-14-2009, 11:55 AM
  #93
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I'd replace supposed to be with "should have been." He had years and years to learn to lay off that down and away slider and he never learned how, that was pretty much all that separated him from a much better career.
Yeah, if he'd ever learned to force pitchers to throw it over the plate more he would have been a consistent 40 HR threat.

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10-14-2009, 11:59 AM
  #94
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Yeah, if he'd ever learned to force pitchers to throw it over the plate more he would have been a consistent 40 HR threat.
It's a pity, lost careers like that are so interesting. What you were saying earlier was the fascinating part of the whole thing. This city (probably myself included) was notoriously hard on Burrell for a number of years, yet in 2008 especially, he practically became a fan favorite with "Burrell's Girls" and all that.

How did this happen? Why did this happen? I'd love to read a long article/book about his relationship with Philly fans.

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10-14-2009, 12:54 PM
  #95
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It's a pity, lost careers like that are so interesting. What you were saying earlier was the fascinating part of the whole thing. This city (probably myself included) was notoriously hard on Burrell for a number of years, yet in 2008 especially, he practically became a fan favorite with "Burrell's Girls" and all that.

How did this happen? Why did this happen? I'd love to read a long article/book about his relationship with Philly fans.
I'll run more searches tonight. The article I referred to above was excellent.

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10-14-2009, 03:02 PM
  #96
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It's a pity, lost careers like that are so interesting. What you were saying earlier was the fascinating part of the whole thing. This city (probably myself included) was notoriously hard on Burrell for a number of years, yet in 2008 especially, he practically became a fan favorite with "Burrell's Girls" and all that.

How did this happen? Why did this happen? I'd love to read a long article/book about his relationship with Philly fans.
A lot of it had to do with his mentality toward us. Even during his biggest slumps and while the team was actively trying to trade him, he was on the record a number of times as saying he loved Philadelphia and we deserved the right to boo him when he sucked. He was one of the few guys who genuinely convinced me that he understood and respected the fact that we didn't boo just because we loved booing, but it was because we cared so much and hadn't seen a winner in so long. I remember starting to love him around 2006 after hearing him say that, despite the booing and hard times and trade rumors, he didn't want to leave. Even back then he seemed to know that winning in this town would be a hell of an experience, not in spite of all the booing and hard times, but specifically because of them. I still got frustrated with his approach, but any guy who can produce something and show me that he wants to be here is welcome to stay as far as I'm concerned.

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10-14-2009, 05:20 PM
  #97
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Wonderful. Wouldn't mind one of these games being played in weather, I'm sure the Dodgers aren't quite used to that.

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Old
10-14-2009, 05:21 PM
  #98
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Kershaw has been announced as the game #1 starter for the Dodgers.

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10-14-2009, 05:39 PM
  #99
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Kershaw has been announced as the game #1 starter for the Dodgers.
Kershaw is more talented but Randy Wolf absolutely mows down the Phillies.

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10-14-2009, 05:41 PM
  #100
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I wonder if they're going to get Padilla in for Game 2. If I was the Dodgers, I wouldn't want him pitching in Philly.

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