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The problem of Kotalik/Avery/Lisin

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Old
10-15-2009, 09:05 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by squishy View Post
To be fair, all but one of his points has come on the power play. He's got a single point at even strength, a goal which came off the hard work of Lisin along the boards. His impact at even strength has been virtually non-existent, regardless of what linemates he's played with.

I get that this whole Kotalik vs. Lisin debate has become completely polarized because of a certain overzealous poster, but the fact remains that Lisin's a 23-year old kid with significant potential who needs to play in order for the coaching staff to determine if they can turn that potential into something more. Kotalik is leading the team in power play time on ice/game and piling up points. Lisin has shown improvement in his play away from the puck. The team is winning. Maybe Torts deserves the benefit of the doubt on this one?
Great post.

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10-15-2009, 09:12 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by squishy View Post
To be fair, all but one of his points has come on the power play. He's got a single point at even strength, a goal which came off the hard work of Lisin along the boards. His impact at even strength has been virtually non-existent, regardless of what linemates he's played with.

I get that this whole Kotalik vs. Lisin debate has become completely polarized because of a certain overzealous poster, but the fact remains that Lisin's a 23-year old kid with significant potential who needs to play in order for the coaching staff to determine if they can turn that potential into something more. Kotalik is leading the team in power play time on ice/game and piling up points. Lisin has shown improvement in his play away from the puck. The team is winning. Maybe Torts deserves the benefit of the doubt on this one?
I don't really disagree with your post but at what point do the Rangers feel compelled to reward Kotalik for his power play production?

It seems to me that Kotalik is EARNING more ice time while Lisin is earning less. Is Lisin doing anything positive or consistent?

I think its fair to start cutting time for guys and rewarding others and I think after the next loss we will probably see Torts making some adjustments.
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10-15-2009, 09:15 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
I don't really disagree with your post but at what point do the Rangers feel compelled to reward Kotalik for his power play production?

It seems to me that Kotalik is EARNING more ice time while Lisin is earning less. Is Lisin doing anything positive or consistent?

I think its fair to start cutting time for guys and rewarding others and I think after the next loss we will probably see Torts making some adjustments.
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Precisely. Not to mention Kotalik is beginning to become a bigger factor at even strength on both sides of the puck.

If Lisin needs to play, its time to stick him on the 4th line. They scored a goal tonight...its not like you'd be exiling him to the land of stone hands like it would have been with last season's 4th line. Kotalik is the one that deserves a regular turn on the 3rd line. Its also unfair to Avery and Anisimov to be consistently switching their winger on a shift to shift basis.

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10-15-2009, 10:01 AM
  #54
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Avery and Kotalik need to be in the top 9. Period. Time to put Lisin on the 4th line and rotate him in and out with Voros. Lisin has a ton of skill, but almost zero hockey sense or intensity. You can't teach those. I can't get the image out of my head from preseason when Lisin skated in a circle around Semin, pathetically waiving his stick at him, while Semin sniped it. Lisin is a clown. Get him out of the top 9.

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10-15-2009, 10:05 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squishy View Post
To be fair, all but one of his points has come on the power play. He's got a single point at even strength, a goal which came off the hard work of Lisin along the boards. His impact at even strength has been virtually non-existent, regardless of what linemates he's played with.

I get that this whole Kotalik vs. Lisin debate has become completely polarized because of a certain overzealous poster, but the fact remains that Lisin's a 23-year old kid with significant potential who needs to play in order for the coaching staff to determine if they can turn that potential into something more. Kotalik is leading the team in power play time on ice/game and piling up points. Lisin has shown improvement in his play away from the puck. The team is winning. Maybe Torts deserves the benefit of the doubt on this one?
Exactly. Especially since my take is that the third line has been showing much better chemistry/effectiveness with the current Avery-Anisimov-Lisin grouping. (As to players being flipped on that line, I don't think Torts has been adjusting the third line in game so much as he's simply rested guys who just got off a PP or PK by subbing in someone on the 3rd line for a shift.) People love to credit players like Callahan and Dubinsky for the "other things" they do when they're not scoring goals, but simply ignore the improvements Lisin has shown in these areas when he doesn't (e.g. he set up the play that led to Avery's goal against Toronto, last night he made the play that drew the second penalty causing the 5-on-3). I get that this has to do with the hyping that he's received on the offensive end, but he's doing an ever increasing amount of the non-scoresheet things and I think that's why Torts is keeping him where he is for now.

Having said that, if the team does go in a mini slump, I would have no problem with Torts shuffling the lines and perhaps sending him to the fourth. If the team has a player that's a work in progress and starts losing, you have to sacrifice working on that progress in favor of simply getting wins. But the thing is, right now the team IS getting wins. And he is contributing, albeit not in the goals column. So why mess with it? (Especially since it might mean that Kotalik gets LESS powerplay time due to the fact that he's playing more at ES.)

Another point: Lisin has become such a polarizing issue that we spend all our time discussing him. At this point, Higgins is getting a lot more time and doing a lot less with it. Let me stress - I am also a Higgins supporter (actually I was in favor of everyone the team brought on board in the offseason other than Brashear and Kotalik, who so far is making me eat my words) and I wanted him to get Kotalik's contract. But he's done absolutely nothing. If you start losing and need to mix up the lines, shouldn't the guy on the second line getting double the ice time be the #1 candidate for demotion...?

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10-15-2009, 11:00 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooter17 View Post
Avery and Kotalik need to be in the top 9. Period. Time to put Lisin on the 4th line and rotate him in and out with Voros. Lisin has a ton of skill, but almost zero hockey sense or intensity. You can't teach those. I can't get the image out of my head from preseason when Lisin skated in a circle around Semin, pathetically waiving his stick at him, while Semin sniped it. Lisin is a clown. Get him out of the top 9.
2nd or 3rd, cant remember, time youve referred to lisin as a clown.

the only clown on our current roster is voros the clown.

please get it right will ya.

oh and i would say that the hit he layed on the leaf the other night was pretty um..... intense. no ?

dude, you are blind if you cannot see that lisin is being coached and told to pick up his 2 way play. im sure torts is telling him to focus on team play and that means play away from the puck, finishing checks and getting back on defense. he hasnt lost his offensive abilities- last night showed what he could do, hes being asked to do things hes never done and hes doing them.

you guys make it sound like hes single handedly losing games for us.

heres something for you to chew on

hits thru 7 games

lisin 7
rozy 7
prospal 6
boyle 5
drury 4
arty 3

looks to me like hes involved as much or more than some of the others. no?

why dont you replay your tivo and watch that filthy move and shot he pulled off last night and tell me again he has no hockey sense.

as long as torts is happy with his play and the team keeps winning, hell play. deal with it.

the longer he goes without a goal though, the more newbs like you will pop off and call him a clown which is completely unwarranted.

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10-15-2009, 11:24 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
I don't really disagree with your post but at what point do the Rangers feel compelled to reward Kotalik for his power play production?

It seems to me that Kotalik is EARNING more ice time while Lisin is earning less. Is Lisin doing anything positive or consistent?

I think its fair to start cutting time for guys and rewarding others and I think after the next loss we will probably see Torts making some adjustments.
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your logic is difficult to follow. really.

how can kotalik be rewarded with more pp ice time? hes getting all of it now.

or are you simplistically saying that his pp production should earn him more 5on5 time where hes shown pretty much nuthin ? again.

and your comment highlighted above mean in your eyes lisin is doing everything... negative and inconsistent. wow.

please reread squish again. she pretty much nails it.

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10-15-2009, 11:33 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
your logic is difficult to follow. really.

how can kotalik be rewarded with more pp ice time? hes getting all of it now.

or are you simplistically saying that his pp production should earn him more 5on5 time where hes shown pretty much nuthin ? again.

and your comment highlighted above mean in your eyes lisin is doing everything... negative and inconsistent. wow.

please reread squish again. she pretty much nails it.
I'm not sure what's hard to follow...

I don't care to get into another lisin debate. Think what you want, you see something with lisin and good for you.

I'd rather debate posters I respect..
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10-15-2009, 11:36 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
I'm not sure what's hard to follow...

I don't care to get into another lisin debate. Think what you want, you see something with lisin and good for you.

I'd rather debate posters I respect..
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no problem, put me on ignore.

i respect all posters here, even ones i happen to disagree with

then again, my maturity level allows me to be that way....

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10-15-2009, 11:44 AM
  #60
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Rozy up there with hits, and blocked shots(leading with 16, nexty is girardi witth 12), even though hes got a more diminished role this season.


Anyways. Id still like to get a chance to see Lisin on Gaborik's LW. My idea is

Lisin-Prospal-Gaborik
Drury-Dubinsky-Callahan
Avery-Anisimov-Kotalik
Brash-Boyle-Higgins

I think Higgins fits as a 4th line player better than Enver, Ales, or Avery. Obviously this wouldnt get tried but just an idea.

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10-15-2009, 11:49 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
Rozy up there with hits, and blocked shots(leading with 16, nexty is girardi witth 12), even though hes got a more diminished role this season.


Anyways. Id still like to get a chance to see Lisin on Gaborik's LW. My idea is

Lisin-Prospal-Gaborik
Drury-Dubinsky-Callahan
Avery-Anisimov-Kotalik
Brash-Boyle-Higgins

I think Higgins fits as a 4th line player better than Enver, Ales, or Avery. Obviously this wouldnt get tried but just an idea.

dude, RUN !!. run now ! before they see you....... you can still get away.... they'll come for you....... run now and dont look back.........

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10-15-2009, 11:51 AM
  #62
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Just quickly perusing the thread, there several of you bemoaning that Kotalik has done nothing 5v5. I disagree wholeheartedly. He's been great with the puck in the corners, laid several hits, hit the post (though several times this was on the PP) all with about 4-5 minutes of 5v5 ice time. Same with Lisin. I see a forward with flashy skills, above average speed, and most of all, a player who gives a s**t, unlike his Russian predecessor. I think if Higgins continues to struggle in potting goals, even though I think he's playing quite well, despite the dearth of goals, I think Avery or Kotalik should get a shot at the second line.

By all accounts, having a overload of wingers is a good problem that any team would love to have.

Honestly, if I were coach, Voros would never don a Rangers jersey again. He could be a good fit for another team, but, alas, it would never happen. Not with that bloated salary.

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10-15-2009, 11:52 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
your logic is difficult to follow. really.

how can kotalik be rewarded with more pp ice time? hes getting all of it now.

or are you simplistically saying that his pp production should earn him more 5on5 time where hes shown pretty much nuthin ? again.

and your comment highlighted above mean in your eyes lisin is doing everything... negative and inconsistent. wow.

please reread squish again. she pretty much nails it.
S.O.S. said to reward Kotalik FOR his success on the Power Play, not WITH Power Play time.

Quote:
I don't really disagree with your post but at what point do the Rangers feel compelled to reward Kotalik for his power play production?

It seems to me that Kotalik is EARNING more ice time while Lisin is earning less.
So yes, he is saying that he has earned more time at ES. Honestly Kotaliks 1 ES goal is more impressive than the 3 secondary assists Lisen has.

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10-15-2009, 12:41 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by McRanger View Post
S.O.S. said to reward Kotalik FOR his success on the Power Play, not WITH Power Play time.



So yes, he is saying that he has earned more time at ES. Honestly Kotaliks 1 ES goal is more impressive than the 3 secondary assists Lisen has.
That's exactly what I meant. I hope lisin proves me wrong but he looks lost on most shifts.

I think Kotalik has EARNED more time at even strength...If he doesn't produce then give Lisin or Grachev his minutes. I personally think that Lisin would be better served watching some games and getting a better feel for this system.
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10-15-2009, 01:04 PM
  #65
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If Kotalik is thriving in the role he's in now, why change it?

Answer: You don't.

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10-15-2009, 01:09 PM
  #66
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BTW, in his limited time in the 2nd period last night Lisin was involved in the best shift the team had that whole period; not to mention he drew the tripping penalty in the 1st that lead to Prospal's 2nd goal.

I'm not a Lisin fanboy but he isn't garbage and all things being equal he doesn't deserve to be sat over Voros and, at this point in time, the team doesn't need to call up Grachev.

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10-15-2009, 01:54 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
Rozy up there with hits, and blocked shots(leading with 16, nexty is girardi witth 12), even though hes got a more diminished role this season.


Anyways. Id still like to get a chance to see Lisin on Gaborik's LW. My idea is

Lisin-Prospal-Gaborik
Drury-Dubinsky-Callahan
Avery-Anisimov-Kotalik
Brash-Boyle-Higgins

I think Higgins fits as a 4th line player better than Enver, Ales, or Avery. Obviously this wouldnt get tried but just an idea.
I'm not so sure about this.

The 1st line regularly logs about 20 minutes of ice time per night, while Lisin averages around 10 minutes. So far, Lisin hasn't demonstrated that he should receive such a drastic increase in playing time.

If Torts wants to throw Lisin on the 1st line for a shift or two just for the hell of it, I'm all for it. But he's going to have to do more to earn that 20 minutes of playing time.

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10-15-2009, 02:00 PM
  #68
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Lisin needs to worry about just staying in the lineup at this point. First line duties and 20 minute per night are a pipedream right now.

The team has been pretty successful, so Im not overly concerned about giving unwarranted minutes and powerplay time to a project like Lisin. But once this gravy train hits some turbulence (and it certainly will over the course of 82 games), things will change. And Lisin's role will be one of the first on the chopping block.

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10-15-2009, 02:19 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
2nd or 3rd, cant remember, time youve referred to lisin as a clown.

the only clown on our current roster is voros the clown.

please get it right will ya.

oh and i would say that the hit he layed on the leaf the other night was pretty um..... intense. no ?

dude, you are blind if you cannot see that lisin is being coached and told to pick up his 2 way play. im sure torts is telling him to focus on team play and that means play away from the puck, finishing checks and getting back on defense. he hasnt lost his offensive abilities- last night showed what he could do, hes being asked to do things hes never done and hes doing them.

you guys make it sound like hes single handedly losing games for us.

heres something for you to chew on

hits thru 7 games

lisin 7
rozy 7
prospal 6
boyle 5
drury 4
arty 3

looks to me like hes involved as much or more than some of the others. no?

why dont you replay your tivo and watch that filthy move and shot he pulled off last night and tell me again he has no hockey sense.

as long as torts is happy with his play and the team keeps winning, hell play. deal with it.

the longer he goes without a goal though, the more newbs like you will pop off and call him a clown which is completely unwarranted.
Sorry buddy but im not a "newb" to the game of hockey. Kotalik is a better player than Lisin. Period. Lisin has talent like I already said, but he has very little hockey sense. That play you are referring to is skill, not hockey sense. Hockey sense is knowing how to get open to receive a pass for a shot and knowing where your teammates are on the ice. Kotalik has that. Lisin does not.


Last edited by Scooter17: 10-15-2009 at 02:35 PM.
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10-15-2009, 04:39 PM
  #70
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this move is just sweet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy72z2ZV_yw

the funniest part is listen to the crowd...... its like....... OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO....

soon people. soon, lisin will go off and once he gets that first one hell be off and runnin.


Last edited by offdacrossbar: 10-15-2009 at 04:52 PM.
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10-15-2009, 05:25 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
Rozy up there with hits, and blocked shots(leading with 16, nexty is girardi witth 12), even though hes got a more diminished role this season.


Anyways. Id still like to get a chance to see Lisin on Gaborik's LW. My idea is

Lisin-Prospal-Gaborik
Drury-Dubinsky-Callahan
Avery-Anisimov-Kotalik
Brash-Boyle-Higgins

I think Higgins fits as a 4th line player better than Enver, Ales, or Avery. Obviously this wouldnt get tried but just an idea.
Dude what are you thinking? You usually are right on with your comments but this is pretty out there.

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10-15-2009, 05:26 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
this move is just sweet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy72z2ZV_yw

the funniest part is listen to the crowd...... its like....... OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO....

soon people. soon, lisin will go off and once he gets that first one hell be off and runnin.
I hope you're right, but I doubt it.

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10-15-2009, 05:46 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
this move is just sweet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy72z2ZV_yw

the funniest part is listen to the crowd...... its like....... OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO....

soon people. soon, lisin will go off and once he gets that first one hell be off and runnin.
Wonderful. He made a nice move and then sort of panicked and took a relatively low percentage shot.

What I find extremely funny is how, up until the season started, you never mentioned how Lisin would need some time to go through growing pains...which seems to be the "flying by the seat of your pants" defense on Enver Lisin you've latched onto now.

Nope, back in August and September, you couldnt stop talking about how Lisin was the second most talented player on this team. I think it that were the case, he would have scored at least 1 goal by now.

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10-15-2009, 06:15 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Wonderful. He made a nice move and then sort of panicked and took a relatively low percentage shot.

What I find extremely funny is how, up until the season started, you never mentioned how Lisin would need some time to go through growing pains...which seems to be the "flying by the seat of your pants" defense on Enver Lisin you've latched onto now.

Nope, back in August and September, you couldnt stop talking about how Lisin was the second most talented player on this team. I think it that were the case, he would have scored at least 1 goal by now.
only you brb.

sorry, for that i have to give you a


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10-16-2009, 12:08 AM
  #75
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You guys worry too much about this Kotalik, Lisin thing. The Rangers are playing as a team. I can see it as a problem if someone was complaining, but everyone is getting their minutes. As the season progresses, it will work itself out, as to who sees more icetime, and in what situations. Of more importance is the chemistry building between Avery n Anisimov. Who ever else plays with them is basically a third wheel. An extra bonus.

A & A had a problem getting the forecheck going vs the Kings, but so did the entire team. I think these 2 have some really good chemistry and will continue to improve in becoming a formidable checking line that can score.

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