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Old
10-14-2009, 01:59 PM
  #26
macleod50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hlundqvist30 View Post
I might be in the minority but I think it was an absolutely horrendous idea to have him play the full season in the NHL last year. He was obviously not ready. and nothing good could have possibly come out of it. I'm all for giving the youth a chance to succeed, and we all know the Islanders need the youth to get opportunities, but if you're just going to hand the jobs to them without even demanding NHL caliber play then what motivation are you giving them? To compare, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Mike Del Zotto is not playing nearly as well as he has been if the Rangers just gave him the spot.
You're definitely not. We had this discussion practically the entire past season. It was a pretty heated subject. I was in the camp that he was most certainly rushed and should have been sent back to juniors after his 9 game stint.

He's been pretty inconsistent so far, a couple gorgeous passes and then a few bonehead rookie mistakes as expected. As others have stated it's only 4 games in. If he's looking like this in another 30-40 games then some time in BP might not be such a bad thing.

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10-14-2009, 02:11 PM
  #27
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I think it is a combination of just being in a slump, not having any linemates worth a damn (I remember the Pitt game, he set up Sim for 2-3 real good chances, but it was Sim), and the fact that he still has a ways to go as a player.

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10-14-2009, 02:51 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by OlTimeHockey View Post
We have to keep him up or he has to go down for confitioning but either way, his confidence may take a hit. Juniors last year would have prevented this contingency.

I hope we remain patient with DeHaan and others from now on.
Agreed. It was a mistake to take him out of junior last year. That said- IMHO it would be a mistake to now COMPOUND that mistake by damaging his confidence and giving him a humiliating ferry ride to Bridgeport... especially when he showed "NHL-ready" skills as recently as last April. He's got to work his issues out HERE. I just distrust the AHL for a guy like Bailey... Time at AAA (completely different animal than winning a Memorial Cup at Windsor and a gold at the WJC's etc.) with a bunch of 3rd and 4th line wannabe's is not what he needs IMHO. It's a different game- one where a guy like Comeau can slip through the cracks and look like he won't amount to much. Much higher probability of skewing JB's development in that environment IMHO- and God forbid he get sent down to the AHL and spiral further down. Much rather he learn from Gordon, Weight and Park and take his lumps with Tavares on LI...

COMPLETELY AGREED about de Haan and the other young prospects to come though (aside from bona-fide ELITE studs like Tavares). Let them develop in junior or in the European Leagues until they're verifiably ready. Would be a refreshing change....

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10-14-2009, 05:36 PM
  #29
John TavArt Ross
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The fact he's playing on the third line and without KO would set most anyone back. That's like Sneezing without someone saying God Bless You.

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10-14-2009, 07:18 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by BOSSY1126 View Post
having him up last year has nothing to do with his play this year guy's he's had all summer and training camp to get ready for this year that excuse is not relavant maybe an undisclosed injury or perhaps just needs more time he's young so be PATIENT
Look at Latendresse when he came up in 2006, look at the numbers then and look at the subsequent numbers after. 19 is too young to focus on what you need to improve on if you've got a million or 2 to spend outside of the rink. Happens to alot of kids that get paid big but fall off after their first year. Carey Price has had his problems in Mtl with late nights and the wrong work ethic.

As a veteran you can bounce back from a dry spell, as a youngster you start to question every thing you are doing.

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10-14-2009, 10:10 PM
  #31
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Phoenix just sent Boedker down to the AHL.

GMG needs to take a queue, tuck his sack back, and do the same.

The kid needs more time to develop, learn, and gain confidence. He's not NHL ready and hasn't been with the exception of a shift here and there.

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10-15-2009, 12:11 AM
  #32
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Always the possibility of the Soph. slump. I know, how can someone have a slump after only a 25-point campaign, well, we may even see lower totals this year.

Before sending JB down or any radical decision like that, I'd give him some more time. He had a very good camp/pre-season, a strong rookie camp, and by all accounts has improved in every facet he needed to over the summer.

In 20 more games, assess from there.

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Old
10-15-2009, 12:16 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by cjdv16 View Post
Phoenix just sent Boedker down to the AHL.

GMG needs to take a queue, tuck his sack back, and do the same.

The kid needs more time to develop, learn, and gain confidence. He's not NHL ready and hasn't been with the exception of a shift here and there.
Turris and Tikhonov are in the minors as well, I believe. They both played in the NHL last season.

Not that Phoenix is a model franchise by any stretch.

Gotta do what's best to maximize success, short term and long term.

I think Bailey will be fine this year and long term. I won't judge him based on offensive output. Given the team, his linemates - I'm just looking for more confidence and better all-around play.

it's very clear the isles have no intention to compete this year, not for a playoff spot anyway.

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10-15-2009, 12:29 AM
  #34
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Last year Bailey was the golden child #1 draft pick, played alongside Okposo, and got plenty of pp time..

This year Tavares has taken Bailey's linemates, pp time, and golden boy label...

Hece, with less offensively gifted linemates to work with and less pp time, what should we expect.....

You want to get the kids confidence back, put him on the first pp unit with Tavares.... Okposo plays the point on the pp, so there is room for Bailey... Since Tavares and Okposo love to shoot, and Bailey loves to pass, it might work out nicely.

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10-15-2009, 12:58 AM
  #35
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He just simply needs more time... LOTS more time.

You think Bailey is struggling... Bertuzzi would sleepwalk through 25 games at a time.

Welcome to the frustrating unsexy part of any "rebuild".

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Old
10-15-2009, 06:20 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by petrocelli View Post
Last year Bailey was the golden child #1 draft pick, played alongside Okposo, and got plenty of pp time..

This year Tavares has taken Bailey's linemates, pp time, and golden boy label...

Hece, with less offensively gifted linemates to work with and less pp time, what should we expect.....

You want to get the kids confidence back, put him on the first pp unit with Tavares.... Okposo plays the point on the pp, so there is room for Bailey... Since Tavares and Okposo love to shoot, and Bailey loves to pass, it might work out nicely.
during the dog days of summer I automatically etched Bailey on our first PP unit with him working the side boards passing to Tavares on the post, KO on the off wing, Streit at the point and weight at the other point. that's alot of skill, eventually someone has to get a hairy sack to screen the goalie and the kid from Bowmanville can do it, in fact he has to do it if he wants PP time.

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10-15-2009, 09:54 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by hlundqvist30 View Post
I might be in the minority but I think it was an absolutely horrendous idea to have him play the full season in the NHL last year. He was obviously not ready. and nothing good could have possibly come out of it. I'm all for giving the youth a chance to succeed, and we all know the Islanders need the youth to get opportunities, but if you're just going to hand the jobs to them without even demanding NHL caliber play then what motivation are you giving them? To compare, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Mike Del Zotto is not playing nearly as well as he has been if the Rangers just gave him the spot.
Even though your a ranger fan i will agree with you. bad idea to bring him up and not send him to the ohl last year and the ahl this year.

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Old
10-15-2009, 10:03 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by petrocelli View Post
You want to get the kids confidence back, put him on the first pp unit...
Problem is, that would be rewarding play that you currently deem insufficient.

That is not how you build a successful NHLer and team, IMO.

You continue to give him ample icetime, 5 on 5. He has to show that he will help his team and compete at an acceptable level in THAT ASPECT of the game before anything else. He is yet to cross that basic, first threshold.

And, as Beloved suggests, you give him a long leash, at least 20+ games, before you even begin to assess.

I have slight long-term concerns about the limitations of this kid's style of play, but nineteen year olds are mysteries, so it's unwise to form any hard opinions.

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10-15-2009, 10:30 PM
  #39
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Problem is, that would be rewarding play that you currently deem insufficient.

That is not how you build a successful NHLer and team, IMO.
I think it's even more than that, than simply getting PP time and/or playing with Okposo.

We CANNOT think that putting a player in a position for HIM to GET POINTS is necessarily good for the player NOR good for the team.

For example: Add Schremp on the PP with Tavares, Okposo, Streit, Weight and guess what - he'll get points. Just being on the ice in an odd-man situation will DEFINITELY result in an even moderately skilled player getting points. That doesn't make him a better player.
Bernie Nicholls was a very good hockey player and a very consistent scorer. The ONE year he played with Gretzky he scored 70 goals and 150pts. Rob Brown was in the minors before Mario. Even Brent Sutter - a heck of a hockey player - amassed over 100 pts the one year Bryan |Trottier decided to miss some games because of injury and Arbour had this dumb idea to play Bossy with Tonelli and Sutter.

Points in isolation tells a VERY misleading story about the ability and value of a hockey player.

Players in certain situations can score points.

Dominic Moore had a solid year for Toronto last year. He had chemistry with puck-hog Jason Blake (not sure HOW) but he scored a lot of points. Points (unfortunately) dictate salary and expectations but Burke made it very clear that Moore was given the opportunity he wouldn't normally have if the Leafs were a better team - THAT"s why he got points. He did NOT overpay for Moore who went on to Buffalo and didn't score anything. Then remained unsigned until recently.

There are dozens of other examples but my point is that goals and assists are WAY too often very misleading.

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Old
10-15-2009, 10:52 PM
  #40
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Points are very misleading and that was an excellent post redbull.

BTW, Andy Hilbert was a point a game player playing with Sidney Crosby.

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10-16-2009, 12:33 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redbull View Post
I think it's even more than that, than simply getting PP time and/or playing with Okposo.

We CANNOT think that putting a player in a position for HIM to GET POINTS is necessarily good for the player NOR good for the team.

For example: Add Schremp on the PP with Tavares, Okposo, Streit, Weight and guess what - he'll get points. Just being on the ice in an odd-man situation will DEFINITELY result in an even moderately skilled player getting points. That doesn't make him a better player.
Bernie Nicholls was a very good hockey player and a very consistent scorer. The ONE year he played with Gretzky he scored 70 goals and 150pts. Rob Brown was in the minors before Mario. Even Brent Sutter - a heck of a hockey player - amassed over 100 pts the one year Bryan |Trottier decided to miss some games because of injury and Arbour had this dumb idea to play Bossy with Tonelli and Sutter.

Points in isolation tells a VERY misleading story about the ability and value of a hockey player.

Players in certain situations can score points.

Dominic Moore had a solid year for Toronto last year. He had chemistry with puck-hog Jason Blake (not sure HOW) but he scored a lot of points. Points (unfortunately) dictate salary and expectations but Burke made it very clear that Moore was given the opportunity he wouldn't normally have if the Leafs were a better team - THAT"s why he got points. He did NOT overpay for Moore who went on to Buffalo and didn't score anything. Then remained unsigned until recently.

There are dozens of other examples but my point is that goals and assists are WAY too often very misleading.
This is a great post! I love your point about Moore you are 100% right.

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10-16-2009, 04:11 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redbull View Post
I think it's even more than that...Just being on the ice in an odd-man situation will DEFINITELY result in an even moderately skilled player getting points. That doesn't make him a better player.
You know, of course, that I agree with every single word you typed in this post.

I could think of a couple of folks who might contest your "radical" concept, however.

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10-16-2009, 11:02 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
I think it's even more than that, than simply getting PP time and/or playing with Okposo.

We CANNOT think that putting a player in a position for HIM to GET POINTS is necessarily good for the player NOR good for the team.

For example: Add Schremp on the PP with Tavares, Okposo, Streit, Weight and guess what - he'll get points. Just being on the ice in an odd-man situation will DEFINITELY result in an even moderately skilled player getting points. That doesn't make him a better player.
Bernie Nicholls was a very good hockey player and a very consistent scorer. The ONE year he played with Gretzky he scored 70 goals and 150pts. Rob Brown was in the minors before Mario. Even Brent Sutter - a heck of a hockey player - amassed over 100 pts the one year Bryan |Trottier decided to miss some games because of injury and Arbour had this dumb idea to play Bossy with Tonelli and Sutter.

Points in isolation tells a VERY misleading story about the ability and value of a hockey player.

Players in certain situations can score points.

Dominic Moore had a solid year for Toronto last year. He had chemistry with puck-hog Jason Blake (not sure HOW) but he scored a lot of points. Points (unfortunately) dictate salary and expectations but Burke made it very clear that Moore was given the opportunity he wouldn't normally have if the Leafs were a better team - THAT"s why he got points. He did NOT overpay for Moore who went on to Buffalo and didn't score anything. Then remained unsigned until recently.

There are dozens of other examples but my point is that goals and assists are WAY too often very misleading.
Fantastic post. Not much to add really except for your posts are usually my favorite to read. They're usually logical and based on observation and not traditional dogma. Great stuff.

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Old
10-16-2009, 02:34 PM
  #44
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I think my issue with Bailey's game, this year and in the 1st 4 games this year, is he doesn't often look to be the aggressor, in my opinion. I think he has very good natural talent, but I often get the feeling that he lacks a little something inside...passion, fire, killer instinct, etc. I know it's very early in their careers, but when I watch a player like Okposo and Bailey throughout a game, it just seems to me that Okposo wants the puck on his stick and wants to be "the guy." I don't get that same impression from Bailey, but obviously he's played less than a full season, so it's not as if he's maxed out now on his potential.

I'm just hoping that Bailey can become a player who elevates his linemates' game, and doesn't need a top flight sniper to help him reach his potential. To me, much more than points, will be to watch for that--even if he's "stuck" playing with Bergenheim, Schremp, Hunter, etc, and not Tavares/Okposo, can Bailey make those guys better players. If he does that, the points will come in bunches and will hopefully lead to more wins.

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10-17-2009, 10:32 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by mikepac23 View Post
I think my issue with Bailey's game, this year and in the 1st 4 games this year, is he doesn't often look to be the aggressor, in my opinion. I think he has very good natural talent, but I often get the feeling that he lacks a little something inside...passion, fire, killer instinct, etc. I know it's very early in their careers, but when I watch a player like Okposo and Bailey throughout a game, it just seems to me that Okposo wants the puck on his stick and wants to be "the guy." I don't get that same impression from Bailey, but obviously he's played less than a full season, so it's not as if he's maxed out now on his potential.

I'm just hoping that Bailey can become a player who elevates his linemates' game, and doesn't need a top flight sniper to help him reach his potential. To me, much more than points, will be to watch for that--even if he's "stuck" playing with Bergenheim, Schremp, Hunter, etc, and not Tavares/Okposo, can Bailey make those guys better players. If he does that, the points will come in bunches and will hopefully lead to more wins.
He looked real good last night I thought. In fact, I thought the offense looked real good last night. The defense and goaltending on the other hand were brutal.

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10-17-2009, 11:29 AM
  #46
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He looked real good last night I thought. In fact, I thought the offense looked real good last night. The defense and goaltending on the other hand were brutal.
I agree 100%. I thought it was his best game this season by far. He looked to be very decisive in his decision making. If he can play with a similar confidence level for the long haul, he'll be fine.

And yes, the goaltending and defense was bad last night. But that seems to be the thing with this team...when they get good goaltending, they can;t score. When they score, they can't keep the puck out of their net.

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10-17-2009, 02:45 PM
  #47
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Put him with KO!!!

I'm sure they will find chemistry and light it up. Getting Moulson-Tavares and Okposo-Bailey fired up could really get the offense up.

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10-17-2009, 08:25 PM
  #48
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Living in NJ, I don't get to see the Islanders live very much. You can tell so much more in person than you can on TV. I went on opening night and saw Bailey (and Tavares) for the first time. I didn't go to a game last year. My impression of Bailey is that he simply needs to get stronger. I'm not sure he is physically ready for the grind of the NHL just yet. He gets banged around quite a bit and quite easily.

As for Tavares, after watching the Pens game live and seeing what he has done afterwards, I came away extremely impressed. He has tremendous hands, great hockey sense, the ability to create shots and get open, and he is a pure scorer. He is also more of a complete player than I exptected.

Bottom line - the Bailey pick may have been a mistake (with Hitchcock burying Filatov it is hard to judge him, but I still think I would rather have him than Bailey by a long shot).

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10-18-2009, 11:55 AM
  #49
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Bottom line - the Bailey pick may have been a mistake (with Hitchcock burying Filatov it is hard to judge him, but I still think I would rather have him than Bailey by a long shot).
I'm going to have to agree on that one. I feel Bailey was the "safe" pick for Garth. I feel Filatov would fit in much better for this rebuild. I was really disappointed when Garth dropped down to take Bailey. I know its early in the season and early in his career but I don't see the potential I see in guys like Okposo and Tavares

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10-18-2009, 12:20 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by cjdv16 View Post
Phoenix just sent Boedker down to the AHL.

GMG needs to take a queue, tuck his sack back, and do the same.

The kid needs more time to develop, learn, and gain confidence. He's not NHL ready and hasn't been with the exception of a shift here and there.
Yup. 100% agree. Bailey should have gone back to juniors and played the WJC last year. We do not need him to compete for a playoff spot.
He should be sent to the Port. If he excels in AHL, then he is brought back up to see if he can cut it here.

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