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Old
10-15-2009, 05:11 PM
  #26
WJF
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
Just try and find a harsher critic of Mueller than me. Well, find one that's not on the ignore list of two thirds of the regular posters on this board. There is only one way this kid is ever going to figure it out. He needs to play with talented linemates or he's doomed. Simple as that.
I think Lombardi and Upshall fit the bill. If he can't succeed on that line than he's gonna need to play either with the sedin's or backstrom and crosby. What mueller needs is to watch tapes of Zach Parise - a kid who's smaller than him but plays 10 times as hard. It's all a question of effort with mueller - and the only way to ingrain that in him is to put him in the press box (somehting he hasn't seen in a very long time - correct me if i'm wrong). Everyone knows he has skills and everyone knows that's not enough on it's own.

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10-15-2009, 05:11 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by JT Yote View Post
Next, for the fans of this team, the 7-4 loss is more entertaining (I'm talking the casual fan here, who make up the majority of the attendance - they want to get off their ass and scream when we score a goal). Hence, we will attract more fans, and give ourselves a better chance of staying in phoenix.
No. Winning earns fans. Winning is our only hope of keeping our team. On that, my mind is made up. So, I guess we don't have a whole lot left to argue about.

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10-15-2009, 05:12 PM
  #28
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No. Winning earns fans. Winning is our only hope of keeping our team. On that, my mind is made up. So, I guess we don't have a whole lot left to argue about.
Well, we're winning right now and we just beat the formidable sharks on the road. Lets wait and see what the attendance is at the game tonight.

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Old
10-15-2009, 05:15 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by JT Yote View Post
I think Lombardi and Upshall fit the bill. If he can't succeed on that line than he's gonna need to play either with the sedin's or backstrom and crosby. What mueller needs is to watch tapes of Zach Parise - a kid who's smaller than him but plays 10 times as hard. It's all a question of effort with mueller - and the only way to ingrain that in him is to put him in the press box (somehting he hasn't seen in a very long time - correct me if i'm wrong). Everyone knows he has skills and everyone knows that's not enough on it's own.
We have played games one through five of this season. What makes you so sure that if Mueller continues to struggle we won't see healthy scratches, and the like? I think Upshall and Lombardi are very talented players, but poor matches for Mueller as linemates. Hanzal or Lang and Doan would be the best options available to us.

Look, you need to realize that the season is five games old, and stop overreacting. Seriously, your overreaction is bordering on absurdity. I'm as knee-jerky and hotheaded as they come, and even I can see that.

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Old
10-15-2009, 05:16 PM
  #30
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Well, we're winning right now and we just beat the formidable sharks on the road. Lets wait and see what the attendance is at the game tonight.
Do you honestly believe that there are a large group of people that had planned on atttending tonight's game, but decided otherwise as a result of the team's performance so far this season? Lunacy.

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10-15-2009, 05:18 PM
  #31
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Right now, the Coyotes can't score, and that doesn't mean they are struggling to score, they don't score very much, or are not an offensive-minded team. It means they cannot score even one goal in a game.
The team is drawing tons of penalties and out-shooting opponents. Assuming the PP isn't going to get better, 5 games into the season, is completely absurd.

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I don't believe this is an upgrade over Gretzky, even if we do manage to keep a .500 record for the whole season.
Are you trying to tell us a playoff spot would not be an upgrade over the past 7 years of unwatchable debacle-on-ice?

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Players like Mueller, Turris, Tikhonov and Boedker will never excel under this philosophy. ... Hence why he plays players like Boedker and Brunnstrom 6 minutes a game and puts Vernon Fiddler on the 2nd line.
Neither of those players can score right now. Doesn't matter if you multiply ice time by 2 - you still won't get any points out of it. We saw it last year. It hasn't looked much better this season. Why not let those guys learn how to put a puck in the net in the AHL?

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Five games nowadays is the difference between making the playoffs or not, of finishing 8th or finishing 2nd.
Correct. And if we played an offensive game while giving our youngsters 15 minutes of ice time per game, we'd be 0-5 right now. As you mentioned, these games matter. Why give them away?

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10-15-2009, 05:23 PM
  #32
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I'm not as concerned about the lack of offense just yet.

What I was looking for in Tippett coming in as late as he did was to install a system of play for this team. Successful teams are built from the goal out. You start with a goalie who can make the big save at the right time and have a solid defense that can shut down the opposition when required and have forward lines with different roles (2 scoring, 1 checking, 1 energy).

Thus far, our goaltending has been very good. Both goalies sport sparkling save percentages and our goals against has dropped dramatically from last season. With the exception of the 3 power play goals against in the first game, this team has stuck with an effective defensive system. It won't last forever and I don't expect Bryzgalov to finish the season with a 95% save percentage. We've tightened up dramatically, stopped the soft goals (thus far), brought in a strong defensive pairing in Vandameer and Aucoin who eat 20 mins per game, Yandle and Lepisto look very strong, and Jovo hasn't embarrassed himself this year. Case and point, last year when Sauer went down, it was a disaster. This year, it hasn't hurt us at all.

The kids themselves all growing together on the farm. Reminds me of the old Oiler days (which ironically is something that the previous administration was trying to duplicate at the NHL level). I recall campaigning years ago for this franchise to fix their development program. To get a farm team and to be patient with their prospects and bring them up properly. I guess I should be careful what I wished for but it's happened. This is the right way to go.

My point in all this. The team game and pieces are falling into place. This team will score more goals this year than they did last year.

Edit: Just a point on Mueller. I'm fairly certain we can't send him down because of waiver eligibility but there's a spot in the press box waiting for him if he doesn't bring his game to a higher level. If I'm Tippett, I give Mueller a shot but I don't hesitate to sit him if he doesn't perform. In order to motivate him, he may have to suffer some embarrassment.


Last edited by hbk: 10-15-2009 at 05:30 PM.
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Old
10-15-2009, 05:28 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by JT Yote View Post
You still haven't answered my original question:
What is the yotes record for consecutive scoreless minutes?
I don't know and I don't care.

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This is a relevant question right now. I don't think it's out of context. So why do you criticize my question? Is it because you don't like the answer or because you don't know the answer? Either way, my question stands, and i'm looking for a knowledgable fan/poster to answer it for me.
I don't care what happened in the past. I care about what is happening right now. Instead of trying to compare five games of scoring to the droughts of history, I have actually bothered to post what issues I see with the team and try to analyze them for the sake of a useful discussion. You just keep finding new ways to complain with nothing constructive to go with it and no other posts about anything else.

Are you going to answer my question, or should I just assume I already know the answer?

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But thanks for your great contribution to the discussion
I feel I have contributed to discussions about the Coyotes offensive play thus far. You should try it some time.

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Old
10-15-2009, 05:32 PM
  #34
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However, for the development of our younger, offensive minded players (Yandle, Boedker, Mueller, Turris, Tikhonov, Upshall, Lepisto and all of the blue-chips we have down in the AHL), i think the 7-4 drubbing is better.
Please explain that to me. How does regulary losing games make you a better player?

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Hence, we will attract more fans, and give ourselves a better chance of staying in phoenix.
I don't think you've attended a whole lot of games with what you call 'casual fans'. 'Casual fans' do not consider it entertaining to be scored on 7 times during the course of a game. Casual fans will measure their level of satisfaction by whether the team won or lost. It really is that simple. During the opener, I didn't see one person leave until that second goal in the last minute of play. Not one. I am absolutely sure that had the yotes scored that lone goal and taken the game to a shootout, every single person in attendance would have considered it an amazing game and would have been thoroughly satisfied.

How do I know that? Every season I bring about 10 new fans to the arena. None of them hockey experts. People from here, Alaska, Hawaii, France... you name it. Friends and family. the pattern is always the same - if we get beat easily and were outplayed, whether 3-0 or 7-3, everyone's bored. If we kick another team's ass (like we did against the Sharks if I remember correctly, the night Roenick scored his hat trick), everyone's bored. If the game goes into overtime, everyone goes crazy. If the home team wins after a tight game, they all ask me if can do it again the following year.

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Old
10-15-2009, 05:33 PM
  #35
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Thus far, our goaltending has been very good. Both goalies sport sparkling save percentages and our goals against has dropped dramatically from last season.
I hope that keeps up. I'm really rooting for the goalies, but especially for Burke. I have wanted to see Burke be the Coyotes goalie coach for a long time.

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Case and point, last year when Sauer went down, it was a disaster. This year, it hasn't hurt us at all.
I was thinking about that before the Sharks game and begining to wonder if Sauer's impact on the team was bigger than what you see on the ice. Last year Sauer went down and the team went into a nose dive. This year the Coyotes won two games, Sauer goes down and they lose two in a row. It was nice to see the team rebound confidently against the Sharks.

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I recall campaigning years ago for this franchise to fix their development program. To get a farm team and to be patient with their prospects and bring them up properly. I guess I should be careful what I wished for but it's happened. This is the right way to go.
You are right, but it does hurt. I was really hoping to see Upshall - Lombardi - Boedker get together and form an exciting line, but the current situation may be the best for the overall health of the franchise.

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10-15-2009, 05:39 PM
  #36
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Please explain that to me. How does regulary losing games make you a better player?



I don't think you've attended a whole lot of games with what you call 'casual fans'. 'Casual fans' do not consider it entertaining to be scored on 7 times during the course of a game. Casual fans will measure their level of satisfaction by whether the team won or lost. It really is that simple. During the opener, I didn't see one person leave until that second goal in the last minute of play. Not one. I am absolutely sure that had the yotes scored that lone goal and taken the game to a shootout, every single person in attendance would have considered it an amazing game and would have been thoroughly satisfied.

How do I know that? Every season I bring about 10 new fans to the arena. None of them hockey experts. People from here, Alaska, Hawaii, France... you name it. Friends and family. the pattern is always the same - if we get beat easily and were outplayed, whether 3-0 or 7-3, everyone's bored. If we kick another team's ass (like we did against the Sharks if I remember correctly, the night Roenick scored his hat trick), everyone's bored. If the game goes into overtime, everyone goes crazy. If the home team wins after a tight game, they all ask me if can do it again the following year.
In Toronto, the team has 1 point and sits in dead last in the NHL right now getting blown out each and every game.

The commentary from the "experts" is all doom and gloom not just because they are losing but because of the way they are losing.

We are not going to be successful with a run and gun offense. We aren't structured (yet) to be successful playing that type of system. We have some individual pieces that could play that game but overall, we still need a talent upgrade on some of our lines before we could even contemplate playing that style.

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Old
10-15-2009, 05:48 PM
  #37
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Next, for the fans of this team, the 7-4 loss is more entertaining (I'm talking the casual fan here, who make up the majority of the attendance - they want to get off their ass and scream when we score a goal). Hence, we will attract more fans, and give ourselves a better chance of staying in phoenix.
Do you think the stands would have been as pact and the crowd as loud a the White Out if we were handed a 7-4 loss then the 2-0 loss with a empty netter in the closing seconds? I have been to the 7-1 drubbing with the Blackhawks last year. I don't remember the one goal we had, but I do remember most of the fans that were left were wearing Blackhawks jerseys. No one likes a loss but they do happen. When your team is close and outplaying the opposition but still can't win, it is much better then scoring a couple of goals in a game where you are dominated. I had some friends at the White Out game that had never seen a NHL game before, and they complained more about the size of the seats then the on ice product. If you win and play hard and competitive in the losses the fans will come. They don't come for the goals, they come for hockey.

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10-15-2009, 05:57 PM
  #38
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This is going to be a good game, which will be nice for the home crowd.

I'm thinking it's going to be a 4-3 win for the Coyotes, closely played, maybe even a comeback from being down a goal (i.e. down 3-2 to win 4-3).

Hopefully Lombardi & Sauer are ready to play and Pyatt is refreshed after his injury.

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10-15-2009, 06:01 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by yakko View Post
I hope that keeps up. I'm really rooting for the goalies, but especially for Burke. I have wanted to see Burke be the Coyotes goalie coach for a long time.


I was thinking about that before the Sharks game and begining to wonder if Sauer's impact on the team was bigger than what you see on the ice. Last year Sauer went down and the team went into a nose dive. This year the Coyotes won two games, Sauer goes down and they lose two in a row. It was nice to see the team rebound confidently against the Sharks.


You are right, but it does hurt. I was really hoping to see Upshall - Lombardi - Boedker get together and form an exciting line, but the current situation may be the best for the overall health of the franchise.

I agree with you on Burke, I'm a huge fan of his and have been calling for him to be the goalie coach ever since he came on board to the front office! Bryz actually looks happy, confident, and completely in the zone (first time since the first 6 months he played for us)

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10-15-2009, 06:12 PM
  #40
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I think one of the things you'll find is that a team's particular struggles or weak area becomes a recurring topic of discussion (i.e. Gretzky was a poor coach in many people's estimation and thus it was an oft-discussed topic around here). Right now, the Coyotes can't score, and that doesn't mean they are struggling to score, they don't score very much, or are not an offensive-minded team. It means they cannot score even one goal in a game. In case you're new to watching the NHL, a team cannot win very much without scoring at least one goal (last game being the rare exception). Over the course of a full season's worth of games, how many end up 0-0 going into the shootout?

My problem is that Tippet is being hailed as a savior because we're miraculously playing .500 hockey without the ability to score goals. And that's all well and great, and I applaud Tippet for bringing this team to .500 without scoring goals, but this is not entertaining hockey, it does not draw fans, and it's not going to keep the coyotes in phoenix. My wish this past offseason was not for the coyotes to suddenly turn into the (former, Lemaire-coached) Minnesota Wild. I don't believe this is an upgrade over Gretzky, even if we do manage to keep a .500 record for the whole season. What we're seeing evolve here over the first 5 games (and with recent roster moves and treatment of players, i.e. Boedker), is that this is going to be one boring hockey season where we miss the playoffs (but by less points than last year), score less, and play more boring hockey. I know people get excited by wins around here (becuase they are a rarity for us), but I don't think anyone wants to watch Lemaire-like, Minnesota Wild hockey. This will not help us develop our offensive-minded players in the long run and is not a sustainable strategy for success (hence, why Lemaire was fired). This is why Tippet was fired from Dallas, it wasn't because he had one off year during an injury-plagued season - it was because of his philosophy and treatment of young players (go talk to the Dallas people if you don't believe me). Players like Mueller, Turris, Tikhonov and Boedker will never excel under this philosophy. Tippet is out to get as many points as possible, he's not willing to go through growing pains to develop younger players and ensure the long-term success of the team. Hence why he plays players like Boedker and Brunnstrom 6 minutes a game and puts Vernon Fiddler on the 2nd line.

And in case you think 5 games isn't important and not large enough to constitute a meaningful sample, think again. Five games nowadays is the difference between making the playoffs or not, of finishing 8th or finishing 2nd.
Are you WJF? If not, please don't ruin GDTs like he did last year. Most of your posts in this thread are repetitive, negative and have nothing to do with this game.

That being said, I hope we get some revenge on the Blues this year. I'm pretty excited about the game, it's the first regular season game I've gotten to see so far this year.

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Old
10-15-2009, 06:17 PM
  #41
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I'm not as concerned about the lack of offense just yet.

What I was looking for in Tippett coming in as late as he did was to install a system of play for this team. Successful teams are built from the goal out. You start with a goalie who can make the big save at the right time and have a solid defense that can shut down the opposition when required and have forward lines with different roles (2 scoring, 1 checking, 1 energy).

Thus far, our goaltending has been very good. Both goalies sport sparkling save percentages and our goals against has dropped dramatically from last season. With the exception of the 3 power play goals against in the first game, this team has stuck with an effective defensive system. It won't last forever and I don't expect Bryzgalov to finish the season with a 95% save percentage. We've tightened up dramatically, stopped the soft goals (thus far), brought in a strong defensive pairing in Vandameer and Aucoin who eat 20 mins per game, Yandle and Lepisto look very strong, and Jovo hasn't embarrassed himself this year. Case and point, last year when Sauer went down, it was a disaster. This year, it hasn't hurt us at all.

The kids themselves all growing together on the farm. Reminds me of the old Oiler days (which ironically is something that the previous administration was trying to duplicate at the NHL level). I recall campaigning years ago for this franchise to fix their development program. To get a farm team and to be patient with their prospects and bring them up properly. I guess I should be careful what I wished for but it's happened. This is the right way to go.

My point in all this. The team game and pieces are falling into place. This team will score more goals this year than they did last year.

Edit: Just a point on Mueller. I'm fairly certain we can't send him down because of waiver eligibility but there's a spot in the press box waiting for him if he doesn't bring his game to a higher level. If I'm Tippett, I give Mueller a shot but I don't hesitate to sit him if he doesn't perform. In order to motivate him, he may have to suffer some embarrassment.
The way this has all come down is not normal but it may work to the Coyotes advantage. Normally the players start in the AHL build confidence over a couple of years and then move up to the big club. When players move backwards it can sometimes be difficult on their egos or self esteem but the way this has worked out, they can support each other as a group and this may turn out to be a huge benefit.

My take on Bryz is that Sean Burke has played a huge roll in teaching him how to be prepared every game.

The offense will come but I still think we are lacking. I have a feeling that Doan had that idea that he had to put the team on his back last year which helped with his great start. This year he was listening to the whole "we gotta score as a group", so I think he is trying to play more of a supporting role. I don't know if I'm right or not but that's my feeling.

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10-15-2009, 06:33 PM
  #42
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Please explain that to me. How does regulary losing games make you a better player?
It worked for Kane/Toews, Crosby, Ovechkin, Kopitar, Richards/Carter, Zetterberg - talent aside, none of these players were stifled by low minutes and trap hockey. They all went though losing streaks and drubbings, but were given room to grow.

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10-15-2009, 06:36 PM
  #43
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Anything less than 4 goals tonight is a crying shame. We need to bounce back from these shutouts. Its ****ing embarrasing to have to watch highlights and hear commentators talk about how much we suck and that's it's probably all because of "off-ice distractions"

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10-15-2009, 06:37 PM
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Must get a home win under the belt tonight. Someone will have to let us know what attendance is like for this one.

GO YOTES GO


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10-15-2009, 06:51 PM
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Just try and find a harsher critic of Mueller than me. Well, find one that's not on the ignore list of two thirds of the regular posters on this board.
I didn't realize I was on so many ignore lists....

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10-15-2009, 06:56 PM
  #46
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Anyone else thinking about watching the St. Louis feed, just to see if Panger has any inside info. that he's willing to drop?

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10-15-2009, 07:04 PM
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Anyone else thinking about watching the St. Louis feed, just to see if Panger has any inside info. that he's willing to drop?
I can only hope mr. Pang doesn't drink any tainted kool-aid with regards to the Coyotes problems!

Stick to your guns Darren.
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10-15-2009, 07:23 PM
  #48
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Hopefully Lombardi & Sauer are ready to play and Pyatt is refreshed after his injury.
Who sits if Sauer is ready to go? Lepisto IMO has been fantastic and deserves to stay in the lineup. He can also play both sides very well.

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10-15-2009, 07:45 PM
  #49
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The coyotes are quickly turning into the most boring team in the league to watch, I am really hoping tonight we can put on a little more offensive pressure

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10-15-2009, 08:05 PM
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So with Boedker reassigned, when Lombardi comes back we should be looking at...

Doan-Lang-Pyatt
Upshall-Lombardi-Mueller
Prucha-Hanzal-Vrbata
Korpikoski-Fiddler-Winnik


or

Doan-Lang-Mueller
Upshall-Lombardi-Pyatt
Prucha-Hanzal-Vrbata
Korpikoski-Fiddler-Winnik


or

Doan-Lang-Mueller
Upshall-Lombardi-Korpikoski
Prucha-Hanzal-Vrbata
Pyatt-Fiddler-Winnik


or

Doan-Hanzal-Mueller
Upshall-Lombardi-Korpikoski
Prucha-Lang-Vrbata
Pyatt-Fiddler-Winnik


or

Doan-Hanzal-Pyatt
Upshall-Lombardi-Mueller
Prucha-Lang-Vrbata
Korpikoski-Fiddler-Winnik




I think I like the fourth set. The second to last one.

Doan-Hanzal-Mueller
Upshall-Lombardi-Pyatt
Prucha-Lang-Vrbata
Korpikoski-Fiddler-Winnik


wouldn't be too bad, either.
I like to see a line up with some combination of Doan Hanzal Mueller
and Prucha Lang Vrbata .

I think Lang has to be on a line with either Mueller or Vrbata ,and has shown chemistry with the above line . Lang is a great playmaker IMO and soon Vrbata is going to benefit from him (if they stay together )


I also know Fiddler is a center , but Upshall Lombardi and Fiddler would be a fast line as well


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