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All-Time Draft #12, Part IV

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Old
10-19-2009, 08:29 PM
  #76
seventieslord
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Bun Cook - Dale Hawerchuk - Bill Cook
Dean Prentice - Stan Mikita - Steve Larmer
Jere Lehtinen - Vincent Damphousse - Dave Taylor
I'm a fan of spreading out the wealth by having Mikita separated from your top wingers. On the other hand, I'm not a fan of Mikita being on a second line. Not much you can do with that because the Cooks are a package deal.

Your 2nd line is your strongest defensive line. Did you plan it this way? If not, I might recommend Larmer moving down to the 3rd as he's a better defensive player than Taylor.

Ideally, I'd put Prentice at LW on the 3rd line and Lehtinen at RW. But then you'd have to put Larmer or Taylor on the 4th and grab whoever is left for a 2nd line LW. Not sure you'd want to do that.

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10-19-2009, 08:35 PM
  #77
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Here's my list, as requested. Not exactly the forum for this, but I guess in the ATD any discussion is good discussion. I can already see some placements that I may have flip-flopped on since then. For example, the goalies don't perfectly correspond to what I posted earlier today. But whatever, here it is, it's the most recent thing I've put together officially anyway.

I know this opens my list up to the "why is he above that guy? why is that guy not on your list? Why is this guy not?" comments, but I guess that was coming anyway when the HOH top-100 project completed. Plus I can't resist disching it out when I see other peoples' lists so I may as well take it. I don't mind. Have fun with it.

Wayne Gretzky
Gordie Howe
Bobby Orr
Mario Lemieux
Bobby Hull
Eddie Shore
Jean Beliveau
Doug Harvey
Ray Bourque
Patrick Roy

Jacques Plante
Dominik Hasek
Maurice Richard
Howie Morenz
Stan Mikita
Newsy Lalonde
Denis Potvin
Red Kelly
Fred Taylor
Guy Lafleur

Phil Esposito
Jaromir Jagr
Bobby Clarke
Nicklas Lidstrom
Ken Dryden
Ted Lindsay
Mike Bossy
Glenn Hall
Mark Messier
Slava Fetisov

Joe Sakic
Terry Sawchuk
Bryan Trottier
Valeri Kharlamov
Steve Yzerman
Larry Robinson
Martin Brodeur
Syl Apps
Milt Schmidt
Brad Park

Bill Cook
Chris Chelios
Marcel Dionne
Vladislav Tretiak
Charlie Conacher
Joe Malone
Paul Coffey
Clint Benedict
Bernie Geoffrion
Frank Mahovlich

Pierre Pilote
Andy Bathgate
Frank Nighbor
Cy Denneny
King Clancy
Max Bentley
Nels Stewart
Earl Seibert
Dit Clapper
Frank Boucher

Aurel Joliat
Tim Horton
Frank Brimsek
Boris Mikhailov
Sprague Cleghorn
Jari Kurri
Bill Cowley
Henri Richard
Borje Salming
Johnny Bower

Peter Stastny
Brett Hull
Doug Bentley
Turk Broda
Peter Forsberg
Bill Gadsby
Sergei Makarov
Elmer Lach
Norm Ullman
Dickie Moore

Al MacInnis
Bill Durnan
Sid Abel
Sergei Fedorov
Toe Blake
Ted Kennedy
Scott Stevens
Johnny Bucyk
Roy Worters
Doug Gilmour

Anatoli Firsov
Dave Keon
Brian Leetch
Syd Howe
Bernie Parent
Bill Quackenbush
Alex Delvecchio
Ebbie Goodfellow
Busher Jackson
Mark Howe

Tony Esposito
Ron Francis
Valeri Vasiliev
Moose Johnson
Serge Savard
Rod Langway
Chuck Gardiner
Gilbert Perreault
Jack Stewart
Eric Lindros

Tiny Thompson
Igor Larionov
Jarome Iginla
Chris Pronger
Jiri Holecek
Adam Oates
Guy Lapointe
Jean Ratelle
Marty Barry
Lionel Conacher

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Old
10-19-2009, 08:39 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 View Post
I have God bless canada's pick so as soon as Halifax makes there pick I'll have the next 2 selections ready
I'm around for the night to make our pick. Or at least for a couple more hours. If I don't make the pick within 15 minutes or so, go ahead and make it. Thanks man.

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Old
10-19-2009, 08:52 PM
  #79
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I have been wanting to see that list posted for a while; didn't really have much of a chance when you posted it on Leafschat, before it got deleted (grr...)

Interesting that you have Patrick Roy out in front for goalies..I thought you were a Plante guy. Not that there's anything wrong with having Roy in front. Unless you've changed that since making this list?

Let's see.. I believe I've got #19, #28, #85, and #98..pretty good, I suppose.

No Mackay sadens me; although I believe you alluded to fixing that one.

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Old
10-19-2009, 09:15 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Here's my list, as requested. Not exactly the forum for this, but I guess in the ATD any discussion is good discussion. I can already see some placements that I may have flip-flopped on since then. For example, the goalies don't perfectly correspond to what I posted earlier today. But whatever, here it is, it's the most recent thing I've put together officially anyway.

I know this opens my list up to the "why is he above that guy? why is that guy not on your list? Why is this guy not?" comments, but I guess that was coming anyway when the HOH top-100 project completed. Plus I can't resist disching it out when I see other peoples' lists so I may as well take it. I don't mind. Have fun with it.

Wayne Gretzky
Gordie Howe
Bobby Orr
Mario Lemieux
Bobby Hull
Eddie Shore
Jean Beliveau
Doug Harvey
Ray Bourque
Patrick Roy

Jacques Plante
Dominik Hasek
Maurice Richard
Howie Morenz
Stan Mikita
Newsy Lalonde
Denis Potvin
Red Kelly
Fred Taylor
Guy Lafleur

Phil Esposito
Jaromir Jagr
Bobby Clarke
Nicklas Lidstrom
Ken Dryden
Ted Lindsay
Mike Bossy
Glenn Hall
Mark Messier
Slava Fetisov

Joe Sakic
Terry Sawchuk
Bryan Trottier
Valeri Kharlamov
Steve Yzerman
Larry Robinson
Martin Brodeur
Syl Apps
Milt Schmidt
Brad Park

Bill Cook
Chris Chelios
Marcel Dionne
Vladislav Tretiak
Charlie Conacher
Joe Malone
Paul Coffey
Clint Benedict
Bernie Geoffrion
Frank Mahovlich

Pierre Pilote
Andy Bathgate
Frank Nighbor
Cy Denneny
King Clancy
Max Bentley
Nels Stewart
Earl Seibert
Dit Clapper
Frank Boucher

Aurel Joliat
Tim Horton
Frank Brimsek
Boris Mikhailov
Sprague Cleghorn
Jari Kurri
Bill Cowley
Henri Richard
Borje Salming
Johnny Bower

Peter Stastny
Brett Hull
Doug Bentley
Turk Broda
Peter Forsberg
Bill Gadsby
Sergei Makarov
Elmer Lach
Norm Ullman
Dickie Moore

Al MacInnis
Bill Durnan
Sid Abel
Sergei Fedorov
Toe Blake
Ted Kennedy
Scott Stevens
Johnny Bucyk
Roy Worters
Doug Gilmour

Anatoli Firsov
Dave Keon
Brian Leetch
Syd Howe
Bernie Parent
Bill Quackenbush
Alex Delvecchio
Ebbie Goodfellow
Busher Jackson
Mark Howe

Tony Esposito
Ron Francis
Valeri Vasiliev
Moose Johnson
Serge Savard
Rod Langway
Chuck Gardiner
Gilbert Perreault
Jack Stewart
Eric Lindros

Tiny Thompson
Igor Larionov
Jarome Iginla
Chris Pronger
Jiri Holecek
Adam Oates
Guy Lapointe
Jean Ratelle
Marty Barry
Lionel Conacher
That's a very impressive list to say the least. It's hard to argue except for maybe some personal preferences but thanks for posting. It's nice too see Tiny Thompson & Jiri Holocek on there. Suprised too see no Boris Mikhailov?

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Old
10-19-2009, 09:41 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by raleh View Post
I'm around for the night to make our pick. Or at least for a couple more hours. If I don't make the pick within 15 minutes or so, go ahead and make it. Thanks man.
Stalberg's time is up in under 50 minutes. Then it's our turn. I'll be around.

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Old
10-19-2009, 09:51 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I'm a fan of spreading out the wealth by having Mikita separated from your top wingers. On the other hand, I'm not a fan of Mikita being on a second line. Not much you can do with that because the Cooks are a package deal.

Your 2nd line is your strongest defensive line. Did you plan it this way? If not, I might recommend Larmer moving down to the 3rd as he's a better defensive player than Taylor.

Ideally, I'd put Prentice at LW on the 3rd line and Lehtinen at RW. But then you'd have to put Larmer or Taylor on the 4th and grab whoever is left for a 2nd line LW. Not sure you'd want to do that.
The idea from the start was to have the Mikita line go head to head vs other teams 1st lines, a matchup I think they'd be inclined to at least go even with. The Cooks line then smokes most 2nd lines, and the 3rd I thought was a nice 2-way line that has quite a bit more offensive than most 3rds without sacrificing defense.

But really I think the guys are pretty interchangable throughout and there's a few interesting combos that could work pretty well. Overall I think it's an unmatched group of two-way forwards.

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Old
10-19-2009, 09:51 PM
  #83
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70s, why do you rank worters above parent?

parent only has 1 less smythe than worters has playoff wins. parent's '74 may be the greatest season by a goalie in history.


i don't understand, especially when you have roy as your top goalie.



i also always wonder about the rationale of putting kharlamov above makarov.

although MVP's were not official, makarov was MVP 3 times, and kharlamov once. even if '72 is counted as a tie, kharlamov won 2.

makarov only played 11 seasons in the soviet league, but he won 9 scoring titles (if he had won in '83, he would have won 10 consecutive). kharlamov won 1.

makarov was named best F at WC twice ('79 and '85)
kharlamov once ('76)


best on best competition (canada cups and summit series)

makarov: 16g, 15a, 31p in 22 games
kharlamov: 5g, 9a, 14p in 15 games


Last edited by nik jr: 10-19-2009 at 10:35 PM.
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Old
10-19-2009, 10:19 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
I have been wanting to see that list posted for a while; didn't really have much of a chance when you posted it on Leafschat, before it got deleted (grr...)

Interesting that you have Patrick Roy out in front for goalies..I thought you were a Plante guy. Not that there's anything wrong with having Roy in front. Unless you've changed that since making this list?

Let's see.. I believe I've got #19, #28, #85, and #98..pretty good, I suppose.

No Mackay sadens me; although I believe you alluded to fixing that one.
I think I will have MacKay on my next top-120. No guarantees, though - it's very crowded down there.

I have always readily admitted that I flip flop on the top three goalies all the time. I checked the sent items folder in my PMs, and it looks like it went Hasek, Plante, Roy when it came time to vote in the top-100 project. As of today, I say it's Plante. big surprise, hey?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 View Post
That's a very impressive list to say the least. It's hard to argue except for maybe some personal preferences but thanks for posting. It's nice too see Tiny Thompson & Jiri Holocek on there. Suprised too see no Boris Mikhailov?
Mikhailov is there; you just missed him

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Old
10-19-2009, 10:23 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I think I will have MacKay on my next top-120. No guarantees, though - it's very crowded down there.

I have always readily admitted that I flip flop on the top three goalies all the time. I checked the sent items folder in my PMs, and it looks like it went Hasek, Plante, Roy when it came time to vote in the top-100 project. As of today, I say it's Plante. big surprise, hey?



Mikhailov is there; you just missed him
Yes I see him my fault. Where would you rank Frank McGee?

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Old
10-19-2009, 10:27 PM
  #86
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Stalberg's time is up in under 50 minutes. Then it's our turn. I'll be around.
Bed time for me. I'll sleep soundly knowing we're going to get our first choice!

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Old
10-19-2009, 10:31 PM
  #87
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Bed time for me. I'll sleep soundly knowing we're going to get our first choice!
And that pick is a guy we've been looking at for a long time. He'll play on our two-way line: RW Rene Robert.

Robert's a guy we were looking at for our second line to compliment Lach. If we didn't get St. Louis, we would have gone with Robert or Wharram. And then it was down to Robert, Wharram or Nevin for the two-way line RW spot. We love what Robert brings to the table: speed, skill, toughness, competitiveness, work ethic, a strong presence on the forecheck and a good defensive game. We didn't think we'd get another shot at him, with pappy holding two picks before our next selection.


Last edited by God Bless Canada: 10-19-2009 at 10:38 PM.
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Old
10-19-2009, 10:32 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
70s, why do you rank worters above parent?

parent only has 1 less smythe than worters has playoff wins. parent's '74 may be the greatest season by a goalie in history.


i don't understand, especially when you have roy as your top goalie.
At the moment I have Roy #3, but I admit those three are interchangeable.

At the time I was in a bit of a "Parent is overrated" phase. I couldn't get over his lack of any notable accomplishments outside of two years. Note that today I put Parent ahead of Worters. I purchased a book, (not sure if you saw the thread in the HOH section), called "Goaltenders: The Expansion Years" and it contains all sv% data from 1967 to 1979, meaning the missing years in the mid-70s are finally completed. I found that parent's save percentages were exceptional year-in-year-out, even though he had to face perhaps the most PPs in the NHL. It certainly made ranking him a touchier subject.

Looking back to January when I submitted the list, I was probably looking mostly at the fact that Worters had 8 "elite" seasons ("elite" being a season in which he was either a league all-star, top-5 in Hart voting, or won the Vezina, including the 5 years that the GMs voted him the all-star goalie) and Parent had two. Also, Worters is my pick for the top goalie of "generation B" - post-merger, and Parent would be the 3rd-best of "generation E" - expansion, after Dryden and Tretiak.


Quote:
i also always wonder about the rationale of putting kharlamov above makarov.

although MVP's were not official, makarov was MVP 3 times, and kharlamov once.

makarov only played 11 seasons in the soviet league, but he won 9 scoring titles (if he had won in '83, he would have won 10 consecutive). kharlamov won 1. even if '72 is counted as a tie, kharlamov won 2.

makarov was named best F at WC twice ('79 and '85)
kharlamov once ('76)


best on best competition (canada cups and summit series)

makarov: 16g, 15a, 31p in 22 games
kharlamov: 5g, 9a, 14p in 15 games
In the months since submitting that list, I, too, have been exposed to the idea that Kharlamov is overrated. Let me assure you that he received little to no support from me in the HOH top-100 voting. I really think that the gap between him and guys like Firsov/Mikhailov/Makarov is unwarranted.

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Old
10-19-2009, 10:33 PM
  #89
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Yes I see him my fault. Where would you rank Frank McGee?
Maybe top-200. Four full seasons just doesn't do it for me. I'm a big "career value" guy.

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10-19-2009, 10:34 PM
  #90
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And that pick is a guy we've been looking at for a long time. He'll play on our two-way line: RW Rene Robert.
I'm sort of stunned (and relieved). Not the guy I expected at all.

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10-19-2009, 10:38 PM
  #91
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I think I will have MacKay on my next top-120.
Your playmaking and goalscoring consistency studies are pretty clear in showing that MacKay was a much better offensive player than Doug Gilmour. MacKay was also a very strong offensive player and play-off performer.

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10-19-2009, 10:42 PM
  #92
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Your playmaking and goalscoring consistency studies are pretty clear in showing that MacKay was a much better offensive player than Doug Gilmour. MacKay was also a very strong offensive player and play-off performer.
So?

Gilmour was better at everything else. Much better from what I understand.

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10-19-2009, 10:57 PM
  #93
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Your playmaking and goalscoring consistency studies are pretty clear in showing that MacKay was a much better offensive player than Doug Gilmour. MacKay was also a very strong offensive player and play-off performer.
i do not see how there is any way to make that kind of comparison.


a few professionals were better than mackay, and a dozen or so were better than gilmour.
mackay was better than dozens of professional players and gilmour was better than hundreds.

it is certainly better to be great in a much larger talent pool. a bigger talent pool means more great players, not only more mediocre ones.

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Old
10-19-2009, 11:00 PM
  #94
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Nice list 70's Some observation:

- Maurice Richard is really low on that list, although I can see where you come from. A French-Canadian like myself couldn't put Richard out of his Top-10 though

- Apps Sr and Schmidt together is how it should be. Two VERY similar hockey player.

- Syd Howe in the top-100 kind of surprised me, especailly when a player like Mickey Mackay is out of your top-120

- I like the inclusion of both Bill Quackenbush and Lionel Conacher on your list, for obvious reasons . But for real, it's nice to see someone putting the Quack ahead of Stewart, for once!

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10-19-2009, 11:09 PM
  #95
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With the 439th Overall selection The Victoria Cougars are very pleased too select our Head Coach Anatoli Tarasov

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10-19-2009, 11:12 PM
  #96
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If pappy sent a list before calling it a night, please announce the pick now.

Also, a request: I think it's cool that we're posting the Top 100 lists (or top 120 lists) here. But if you're going to do it, can we save it for the Chat Room? That way, we don't have a bunch of extra posts in here. (And I don't have to post a new thread every 10 days).

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10-19-2009, 11:12 PM
  #97
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pappy steals D Lars-Erik Sjoberg from me.

The Clippers select C Milan Novy.

Novy is arguably the most dominant scorer in Czechoslovakia Elite League history having gone 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd in scoring over his career. He also won the Golden Stick Award three times.


Last edited by pitseleh: 10-19-2009 at 11:19 PM.
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10-19-2009, 11:12 PM
  #98
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Thanks, EB. It's tough to leave out Conacher with two Hart runner-ups. As for Quack and Stewart, I think Stewart had the obvious physical edge but Quackenbush had the major offensive edge and both were solid in their own end, to the point where you couldn't choose between them. Stewart's intimidation has its usefulness, but not taking penalties, in itself, is a very useful thing, when you are a valuable defensive player, when you consider that every 5 penalties you take mean, on average, one goal for the opposition, perhaps more if it is you in the box.

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10-19-2009, 11:13 PM
  #99
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With the 439th Overall selection The Victoria Cougars are very pleased too select our Head Coach Anatoli Tarasov
Woulda looked good behind the Regina bench.

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10-19-2009, 11:14 PM
  #100
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pappy steals D Lars-Erik Sjoberg from me.

The Clippers select C Milan Novy.
Wow it was either Tarasov or Sjoberg for me. Nice pick!!! Guess I aint getting him in the next round. I was actually debating on Sjoberg or Edward Ivanov in the last round. Kinda sick too see him gone. I wonder if Tarasov would have still been available now???

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