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New Book Asks If There Is A Bias In Nhl Against French Players

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Old
10-20-2009, 03:22 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
You got it wrong I don't take it personally. I'm not English but I'm not French either. I'm ethnic and I've had it up to here with this crap. Yeah there are bigots out there in the English community. Just as there are in the French.
I don't this is necessarily related to bigotry. Actually, if there is indeed discrimination, I think it is mostly unconscious discrimination. English canadians are not bad people. This is not the issue here.

One important point I heard from an interview Sirois did on Radio Canada.
He said that even though his book focuses on Quebec, the discrimination is actually against every players that is not from the USA or from English Canada.

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10-20-2009, 03:23 PM
  #127
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The best answer to this stupid book is here:

http://www.corussports.com/hockey/no...s-1795531.html

Bravo IIHF!

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10-20-2009, 03:23 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
If you mean players where English was spoken at home, geez, Lombardi for sure, you sure about Pominville ?
I thought Pominville was one, could be wrong. Guess I’m trying to see how the 2 to 1 ratio of Anglo to Franco Quebecer’s drafted to the NHL, mentioned earlier in this thread makes sense.

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10-20-2009, 03:24 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by JaymzB View Post
I think there is a bit of truth to the idea the Q is more of a offense first league, and I also think that notion can cause Scouts and teams to overlook some good defensive/physical talent in the Q.
Maybe, my guess is that it may be more in perception than reality. I don't know how to explain the lack of d men, if scouts felt there was an unmined territory they'd be drafting them, it's like pitching in baseball.

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10-20-2009, 03:24 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Unspoken View Post
When I mean "prove", I just mean proving that you are NHL caliber, not that you are a Jack Adams coach.

Look, this is not against English. I'm sorry you take it personal. I don't. I live in Ottawa. Half of my friends are English speaking. This does not have to be a "us vs. them".

I just say: look at the datas before coming here with your opinion.

I just try to look at the facts. The fact is the overwhelming majority of franco coaches were "revealed" to the rest of the NHL because they were hired by Montreal or Quebec.
It can be easily infered that many of these Jack Adams coaches probably would never have reached the NHL otherwise.


Another data I heard (in the interview) which raised my curiosity on the issue: out of every regular francophone players in the NHL, 40% received individual honors such as trophies for their personnal excellence in a particular aspect of the game (goals, etc.). 40% is way higher than for anglophones.
Why?
To me, it looks like in order to become a regular nhl players, francophones have to be better than anglophones.
Have nothing to with english VS francais... it's sort of a logical step...

I mean, if for whatever reason you think players in the Q arent good enough to become NHLers... would you hire guys reponsible (coaches) for shaping theses kids into what they actually are ?

obvious awnser : NO



So be it, life is not fair, want something ? work hard... working hard and not getting it ? work harder...

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Old
10-20-2009, 03:26 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by JaymzB View Post
I thought Pominville was one, could be wrong. Guess I’m trying to see how the 2 to 1 ratio of Anglo to Franco Quebecer’s drafted to the NHL, mentioned earlier in this thread makes sense.
Right now, I'm drawing a blank on anglo players from Q. Geez,maybe this shows the West Island has the best development program.

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10-20-2009, 03:28 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by JaymzB View Post
How many current PQ NHL’ers are Anglo’s? I can think of Lombardi, Pominville, Luongo, Ribeiro (though wouldn’t he be an Allophone?), Esposito in the minors. Anyone else?
Pominville is bi (Quebecois dad, American Mom), Luongo & Esposito are ethnic and so is Ribeiro but I would class him as Franco. Isn't his mom Quebecois?

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10-20-2009, 03:30 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by 25th View Post
The best answer to this stupid book is here:

http://www.corussports.com/hockey/no...s-1795531.html

Bravo IIHF!
Oh man does Sirois get it.

to the guy who wrote that. Down with people like Sirois and Fatso Tremblay.

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Old
10-20-2009, 03:33 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
Maybe, my guess is that it may be more in perception than reality. I don't know how to explain the lack of d men, if scouts felt there was an unmined territory they'd be drafting them, it's like pitching in baseball.
Yeah, the lack of top notch defensemen is a real head scratcher. In the last 30 years, only 2 Quebec Defensemen have made the post season all-star teams, Bourque and Desjardins.

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10-20-2009, 03:33 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
Pominville is bi (Quebecois dad, American Mom), Luongo & Esposito are ethnic and so is Ribeiro but I would class him as Franco. Isn't his mom Quebecois?
Pominville is bi ? Nothing wrong with that. Y'know, we've had 6 or 7 posters on here who have extensive experience in minor hockey in the province, guys that I have a healthy ammount of respect for. Maybe more than 6 or 7, from coaching,playing and administrative levels. Each and every one claims that there are major issues with how Quebec has chosen to implement development programs.

So, while to a degree, there are working scouts and gm's who hire and draft guys that most resemble themselves, again, like a lot of inustries, don't ignore real issues like how the province doesn't churn out talent at the same degree anymore.

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10-20-2009, 03:36 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by 25th View Post
The best answer to this stupid book is here:

http://www.corussports.com/hockey/no...s-1795531.html

Bravo IIHF!
Thanks for that article. The best response to that book with that idiotic premise.

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10-20-2009, 03:38 PM
  #137
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I suppose, in all cases, it makes us all feel better to blame someone else for something we did not achieve, instead of looking at how we could have overcome the odds and got to where we wanted to be, but didn't.

Now... let's start a riot!!!!!

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10-20-2009, 03:38 PM
  #138
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[QUOTE=mcphee;21693198]Pominville is bi ? Nothing wrong with that. /QUOTE]


I knew some smart alec would make a comment about that. I meant bicultural as in American/Quebecois.

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Old
10-20-2009, 03:42 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Have nothing to with english VS francais... it's sort of a logical step...

I mean, if for whatever reason you think players in the Q arent good enough to become NHLers... would you hire guys reponsible (coaches) for shaping theses kids into what they actually are ?

obvious awnser : NO



So be it, life is not fair, want something ? work hard... working hard and not getting it ? work harder...
I made an hypothesis, not a logical step.
Do you have any other explanation beside discrimination to explain why 40% of regular francophones players receive individual honors for their elite performance?


+ You're saying two things here.
1. you deny discrimination, but then
2. You say life is unfair and imply that Quebecers have to work harder than Anglos for the same goal...
I remember stories about blacks and women saying they had to work harder than men to be recognized. Isn't that discrimination?

You say "if for whatever reason you think players in the Q arent good enough to become NHLers"
If a person makes such generalizations about Québec, aren't they being prejudiced? Isn't it in itself discrimination to conclude that "players in the Q aren't good enough".

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10-20-2009, 03:42 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Have nothing to with english VS francais... it's sort of a logical step...

I mean, if for whatever reason you think players in the Q arent good enough to become NHLers... would you hire guys reponsible (coaches) for shaping theses kids into what they actually are ?

obvious awnser : NO



So be it, life is not fair, want something ? work hard... working hard and not getting it ? work harder...
Your argument does not make any sense. Are you saying there never were any good coaches at all in Quebec? How come only francophones were the only ones giving a chance to Burns, Vigneault, Therrien, Julien, Hartley etc. and each one of them was good enough to be hired again?

You can even look at future coaches from the Q. Benoit Groult= Hired by J. Martin in Florida, Guy Bouched= Hired by the habs.

Would any of these guys have been discovered if it there had not been other francophones to recognise their talent. Maybe they didn't "work hard enough" to be noticed by anglophone management.

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Old
10-20-2009, 03:51 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Not The One View Post
Your argument does not make any sense. Are you saying there never were any good coaches at all in Quebec? How come only francophones were the only ones giving a chance to Burns, Vigneault, Therrien, Julien, Hartley etc. and each one of them was good enough to be hired again?

You can even look at future coaches from the Q. Benoit Groult= Hired by J. Martin in Florida, Guy Boucher= Hired by the habs.

Would any of these guys have been discovered if it there had not been other francophones to recognise their talent. Maybe they didn't "work hard enough" to be noticed by anglophone management.
Not that it really matters, but Groulx was named head-coach of Team Canada for 2009 (before he took the AHL job) and Guy Boucher had offers from other NHL organizations.

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Old
10-20-2009, 03:55 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Unspoken View Post
I made an hypothesis, not a logical step.
Do you have any other explanation beside discrimination to explain why 40% of regular francophones players receive individual honors for their elite performance?


+ You're saying two things here.
1. you deny discrimination, but then
2. You say life is unfair and imply that Quebecers have to work harder than Anglos for the same goal...
I remember stories about blacks and women saying they had to work harder than men to be recognized. Isn't that discrimination?

You say "if for whatever reason you think players in the Q arent good enough to become NHLers"
If a person makes such generalizations about Québec, aren't they being prejudiced? Isn't it in itself discrimination to conclude that "players in the Q aren't good enough".
I'd want to be real careful with this stat. It sounds subject to opinion shaping. So, these kids rec'd awards at what level ? Do all provinces record individual awards ? Could it mean that only the elite kids are pursuing hockey beyond a certain level ? I'd think that most players who advance to junior have been the best at some level ? Do other provinces have a broader base of competition at the bantam or midget level, making individiual recognition less likely ?

Do more western kids, your Travis Moen clones, stay on in junior, work to develop as role players ? I'd like to hear what some minor hockey people have to say about this stat in particular.

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10-20-2009, 03:57 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Unspoken View Post
I made an hypothesis, not a logical step.
Do you have any other explanation beside discrimination to explain why 40% of regular francophones players receive individual honors for their elite performance?


+ You're saying two things here.
1. you deny discrimination, but then
2. You say life is unfair and imply that Quebecers have to work harder than Anglos for the same goal...
I remember stories about blacks and women saying they had to work harder than men to be recognized. Isn't that discrimination?

You say "if for whatever reason you think players in the Q arent good enough to become NHLers"
If a person makes such generalizations about Québec, aren't they being prejudiced? Isn't it in itself discrimination to conclude that "players in the Q aren't good enough".

that is the hypothesis (thinking players from the Q arent good enough)... logical step : if coaches are shaping players from the Q into "not good enough players", chances are coaches arent all that great either...


black people, women... you do not want to go there.

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10-20-2009, 03:58 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Not The One View Post
Your argument does not make any sense. Are you saying there never were any good coaches at all in Quebec? How come only francophones were the only ones giving a chance to Burns, Vigneault, Therrien, Julien, Hartley etc. and each one of them was good enough to be hired again?

You can even look at future coaches from the Q. Benoit Groult= Hired by J. Martin in Florida, Guy Bouched= Hired by the habs.

Would any of these guys have been discovered if it there had not been other francophones to recognise their talent. Maybe they didn't "work hard enough" to be noticed by anglophone management.
Not at all. Read again.

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Old
10-20-2009, 04:01 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
I'd want to be real careful with this stat. It sounds subject to opinion shaping.
Agreed. It doesn't prove anything by itself. It is only an indication. It needs to be more closely looked into. But, I think we can agree that it raises questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
So, these kids rec'd awards at what level ? Do all provinces record individual awards ? Could it mean that only the elite kids are pursuing hockey beyond a certain level ? I'd think that most players who advance to junior have been the best at some level ? Do other provinces have a broader base of competition at the bantam or midget level, making individiual recognition less likely ?

Do more western kids, your Travis Moen clones, stay on in junior, work to develop as role players ? I'd like to hear what some minor hockey people have to say about this stat in particular.
One thing though. From what I understood (I may be wrong) of this statistic. The individual honors refered to were those obtained at the NHL level only. NHL trophies, team trophies first scorer on their team. That sort of thing.

I may be wrong. It was only a few sentences during an interview.

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10-20-2009, 04:04 PM
  #146
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Not that it really matters, but Groulx was named head-coach of Team Canada for 2009 (before he took the AHL job) and Guy Boucher had offers from other NHL organizations.
Wasnt he also an asst coach in the last WJC ?

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10-20-2009, 04:05 PM
  #147
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I don't get this part. Before "doing" something about a problem, shouldn't the first step be to verify if there really is a problem or not?
Isn't that what he tried to do with his research: trying to find if there is a problem or not?

You know, getting the facts straight before having an opinion about it...

Actually, I don't get most of the posts here. Yours is a perfect example. No one has read the book. Yet, many condemns him. It seems he makes his case by using data instead of anecdotes or examples.

Before criticizing the guy or arguing against, shouldn't you all at least read about his main arguments, his main findings?
The guy seemed to have done a research from what I understand, not an opinion piece.

This is not the same as criticizing Réjean Tremblay for his biased anecdotes. There is research behind this book. The statistics and the tables he provides have to be examined closely before being so easily dismissed.

For my part, I heard an interview. He seemed to have a few interesting statistics. Some of these needed closer examination before starting to attack or laud him.
Doing one of these before getting the necessary information is pretty close minded imho

Ok, you clearly didn't understand the last part of the sentence you bolded in my post.

I'm saying, if there is such a problem, do the research, submit it to instances like the NHL, the IIHF, the NHLPA. Don't put a book out trying to market it like the Book of Revelations of Quebec discrimination when the only goal of the whole operation is personal profit. I'm sure Sirois is really down with the cause, or else he wouldn't have wrote that book. Only, what will it get him in the end? money. Money and reputation. He did it to establish his name. It's hypocrisy at it's finest. I saw him on Sports 30 yesterday. He wasn't very convincing.

Anyway, I'm sure he has interesting statistics. I'm sure his interesting statistics point out to the fact that french-speaking players are discriminated. I'm sure that you can easily be convinced by what Sirois says in his book if that's what you want. The thing is, you can easily use statistics to your advantage. From what I heard him say, he was making comparisons between today and the days where Lafleur played. Was there Russians back then? Was there Swedes? You get my point. His statistics are biased to start with. As pointed by the IIHF in an article another poster included in this page, Sirois based his stats on the ENTIRE POPULATION OF CANADA. Not the number of hockey players, or even the age groups that can contain pro hockey players. The entire population.

To me, this just seems like another frustrated guy who doesn't have his place in hockey anymore trying to ride the current wave of french-canadian insecurity towards hockey and life in general.

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10-20-2009, 04:05 PM
  #148
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Agreed. It doesn't prove anything by itself. It is only an indication. It needs to be more closely looked into. But, I think we can agree that it raises questions.



One thing though. From what I understood (I may be wrong) of this statistic. The individual honors refered to were those obtained at the NHL level only. NHL trophies, team trophies first scorer on their team. That sort of thing.

I may be wrong. It was only a few sentences during an interview.
OK, I misread, I understood honors at a minor level.

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10-20-2009, 04:05 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
that is the hypothesis (thinking players from the Q arent good enough)... logical step : if coaches are shaping players from the Q into "not good enough players", chances are coaches arent all that great either...


black people, women... you do not want to go there.
But, you talk as if it is a fact that players are not good enough. Your argument is worse than my hypothesis.
My hypothesis is based on a fact.
Your argument is based on a presumption of what reality is.

On black and all that, you went there first. Saying life is unfaire and that some people have to work harder to achieve the same thing are classic lines used by many people to justify a status quo detrimental to one minority group or the other. Sorry, if that was not your intent, but that is how you sounded to me.

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10-20-2009, 04:16 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by 25th View Post
The best answer to this stupid book is here:

http://www.corussports.com/hockey/no...s-1795531.html

Bravo IIHF!
That is a pretty good rebuttal...

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