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AAA11 Final: Regina Pat Canadians vs. Toledo Walleye

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Old
11-13-2009, 05:09 PM
  #1
seventieslord
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AAA11 Final: Regina Pat Canadians vs. Toledo Walleye

Regina Pat Canadians

coach: Brian Kilrea

Jack McDonald - Herb Jordan - Jack Marks (A)
Nick Mickoski - Don Smith - Art Gagne
Pete Horeck - Viktor Shuvalov - Don Saleski
Dan Maloney - Jimmy Herberts - Dallas Drake (C)
Mac Colville, Stanislav Petukhov

Lou Fontinato - Adrian Aucoin
Bruce Driver (A) - Bill Juzda
Bill Brydge - Jocelyn Guevremont
John Mayasich

Richard Brodeur
Frank McCool

vs.

Toledo Walleye

coaches: Dick Todd, Barry Trotz

Robert MacDougall - Dutch Reibel - Ray Sheppard
Ray Whitney - Ron Duguay - Ran McDonald
Hib Milks - Patrik Sundstrom - Bud Poile
Yevgeny Mishakov - Larry Patey - Wildor Larochelle
Darryl Sutter

Dale Tallon - Doug Jarret
Risto Siltanen - Al Dewsbury
Garth Boesch - Pierre Bouchard
Niklas Kronwall

Billy Nicholson
Marc-Andre Fleury

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Old
11-13-2009, 05:10 PM
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Bring on the fish!

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11-13-2009, 05:15 PM
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I finally made the final of something on this board

I feel bad asking for this as this has been put off long enough, but can we not vote until next weekend? I have end of semester papers to write and don't have time for concentrated research for the next few days.

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11-13-2009, 05:17 PM
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That's fine with me. The most important thing is that we get some decent discussion/debate going. (But I said that in the last AAA final too!)

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11-14-2009, 04:09 AM
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Hedberg
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Players moving to higher levels next season:

Toledo:
- F Ron Duguay signed a 1-way deal with Betelguese
- G Billy Nicholson signed a 2-way deal with Tidewater
- F Ran McDonald signed a 2-way deal with Nova Scotia
- F Robert McDougall signed a 2-way deal with Tidewater
- F Ray Sheppard signed a 2-way deal with the Toronto Maple Leafs

Regina:
- G Richard Brodeur signed a 2-way deal with Winnipeg
- D Bill Juzda signed a 2-way deal with Glace Bay
- F Art Gagne signed a 2-way deal with Detroit
- F Herb Jordan signed a 2-way deal with Victoria
- F Jack Marks signed a 2-way deal with St. Georges
- F Nick Mickoski signed a 2-way deal with the Toronto Toros


Last edited by Hedberg: 11-16-2009 at 02:33 AM.
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11-16-2009, 02:29 AM
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Interesting stuff, Hedberg. Now let's leave out the one that you yourself selected (McDougall) - so it's 7-4. Regina wins!

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11-16-2009, 02:33 AM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Now let's leave out the one that you yourself selected (McDougall) - so it's 7-4. Regina wins!
I actually selected two .

Frank McCool was released though, so it's 6-5 (or 6-3...)

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11-16-2009, 02:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedberg View Post
I actually selected two .

Frank McCool was released though, so it's 6-5 (or 6-3...)


alright then, if you want to be that way.

Interesting that Duguay is the only one to get a 1-way deal. I definitely do not think he is the best player in this series.

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11-16-2009, 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post

Interesting that Duguay is the only one to get a 1-way deal. I definitely do not think he is the best player in this series.
He may not be the best, but Google has informed me that Ron Duguay is one of 3 men on Earth capable of doing sign language with his chest hair

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11-16-2009, 02:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedberg View Post
He may not be the best, but Google has informed me that Ron Duguay is one of 3 men on Earth capable of doing sign language with his chest hair
Why didn't you put that in his bio? I might have had a different opinion then.

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11-16-2009, 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Why didn't you put that in his bio? I might have had a different opinion then.
The page that has that on it was from October 26th and I did his bio September 2nd. Out of the NHL for 20 years and people still find new praise for him- he's like hockey's Chuck Norris.

He's also been on Battle of the Blades since I wrote his bio:

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11-23-2009, 01:19 PM
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I really dropped the ball on this one. I said the weekend and it's Monday and I haven't added anything yet

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11-23-2009, 01:24 PM
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(insert animation of Sonic the Hedgehog looking at his watch and tapping his foot)

No worries, dude, get something together and I'll do the same.

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11-24-2009, 02:23 PM
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Now just as this thread is about to be buried, I actually have something.

First of all, I think this is a very close series.

Goaltending: Two goalies with vastly different styles, but I'm not sure if there's an edge. It's always difficult comparing a recent goalie with one who played over 100 years ago. Brodeur, a small, acrobatic netminder vs. one of the fatest men to ever play elite hockey, the pre-modern Giguere, Billy Nicholson. Nicholson has two cups, while Brodeur had a cinderella run on a horrible team that fell short in the finals. Statistics in this comparison are not overly useful as Brodeur was better than the numbers indicate (his numbers are dreadful, but that's understandable given the competition level he faced and the quality of players he played with) while the stats on Nicholson are mainly GAA, which is as much a team stat as a goaltending one (although it would give Nicholson the 1900 and 1902 Retro Vezinas).

As far as backups go, neither Fleury or McCool have extensive resumes, but I think Fleury's resume is better due to his cup win not being in a war year

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11-24-2009, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedberg View Post
Now just as this thread is about to be buried, I actually have something.

First of all, I think this is a very close series.

Goaltending: Two goalies with vastly different styles, but I'm not sure if there's an edge. It's always difficult comparing a recent goalie with one who played over 100 years ago. Brodeur, a small, acrobatic netminder vs. one of the fatest men to ever play elite hockey, the pre-modern Giguere, Billy Nicholson. Nicholson has two cups, while Brodeur had a cinderella run on a horrible team that fell short in the finals. Statistics in this comparison are not overly useful as Brodeur was better than the numbers indicate (his numbers are dreadful, but that's understandable given the competition level he faced and the quality of players he played with) while the stats on Nicholson are mainly GAA, which is as much a team stat as a goaltending one (although it would give Nicholson the 1900 and 1902 Retro Vezinas).

As far as backups go, neither Fleury or McCool have extensive resumes, but I think Fleury's resume is better due to his cup win not being in a war year
So far, so good. I wouldn't disagree with any of that.

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Old
12-17-2009, 09:05 PM
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The Walleye are going down! Very little to choose from in net. Defense is also really hard to find major differences in at the AAA level. With that said, Regina does have some guys who were among the best in the game, more often than Toledo's guys.

The big difference in this series, as in last series, is Regina's offensive edge. Herb Jordan is an offensive whiz who is definitely the marquee talent of the series. There are four other very significant offensive stars here, and just one plays for Toledo - Bob McDougall. Jack McDonald, Don Smith, and Art Gagne, who dot Regina's first and second lines, are the other three.

On the third lines, you can consider Shuvalov and Sundstrom a wash. I had Sundstrom three straight drafts and I respect his modest offensive and defensive ability. Shuvalov dominated in Russia back when it wasn't that impressive to dominate in Russia. It's tough to gauge when it's right to pick him, but here in the 1100s I am sure he's a great pick. Poile was a better player than Saleski, but Saleski is definitely better suited to the 3rd line. Horeck and Milks are about equally skilled, but Horeck is a wrecking ball and I know nothing of Milks' other skills.

Herberts, 6th and 7th in Hart voting, is definitely the best player on either 4th line. I think he was pretty tough too, but I can't prove that. He literally carried Boston offensively for two years (see his bio) - I like Drake and I like him as captain, but i admit Larochelle is better. I really like the guy and wanted to pick him myself. I like Maloney a lot. The guy was an ATD mainstay not too long ago. he deserved to fall, but he's a steal where I got him. He was highly respected, a good teammate, stuck up for his team, and was a deadly fighter and bodychecker. He also put up decent point totals, proving himself an even more capable player than a guy like, say, Bob Probert. Can you educate me more on Mishakov so I can assess who is better and who will do a better job on a 4th line?

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12-18-2009, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Can you educate me more on Mishakov so I can assess who is better and who will do a better job on a 4th line?
- Held pointless in 6 games at the Summit Series
- Was involved in the Summit Series' only fight, against noted pugilist Rod Gilbert
- 49 goals in 91 games with the National Team.

Greatest Hockey Legends:
Quote:
Mishakov is not remembered as one of Russia's most elite hockey players, though he did help the national team win 4 world championships and 2 Olympic gold medals between 1968 and 1972. In that time he scored an impressive 29 goals in 35 contests, despite playing on a checking line with Yuri Moiseyev and Anatoli Ionov. He also played in 400 Soviet League games, scoring 183 times.

Mishakov was one Soviet player who played full out. He was an energetic and exuberant forward who showed unbridled spirit, often on the penalty kill.

"The playing fury and fighting spirit of this normally reserved person are really astounding," said Vladislav Tretiak of Mishakov, in the book Kings of the Ice. "In workouts he's possessed and in games he can, if need be, spend five and even 10 shifts on the ice without substitution. And when he is replaced by another player, he'll sit on the bench as if nothing has happened, wink at one guy, nudge another in the ribs as though he has just had a good rest."
Like many Soviet players, his retirement is a sad story:
Greatest Hockey Legends:
Quote:
I only found out about this today, even though his death was on May 30th, 2007. Evgeny Mishakov, Soviet hockey star and 1972 Summit Series alumni, died at the age of 66.

I will always remember Mishakov 30 years later, in 2002. I had just opened up 1972 Summit Series.com, brand spanking new just in time for the 30th anniversary of the great hockey event. Mishakov was the poster boy of a series of heart breaking stories of a number of the forgotten Soviet players who were left impoverished amidst the many political and economic changes seen in Russia since then. Living on a puny military pension that paid him about $3 a day, Mishakov couldn't afford the major surgery he desperately needed to both of his knees to keep him out of a wheel chair.

Efforts were under way to raise the necessary funds to bring him to Canada to have the surgery, though last I heard the money needed for post-surgery care was well short. Of course Mishakov's plight soon disappeared after the passing of the 1972 Summit Series' 30th anniversary. I have never been able to find out if Mr. Mishakov had the surgery he needed, or if these complications played any role in his death. All I know is Russian media reports suggest Mishakov "died suddenly."
That's pretty much all I have.

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12-18-2009, 09:03 PM
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Ahhh, well why didn't you tell me he was in KOTI? I just checked him out, here's what I know:

- 23-9-32 in 41 international games of importance (OWG, WEC, SS) with 25 PIM
- compact, clumsy fellow
- yakushev felt out of place next to this "grunt"
- Compared to their teammates on Army and the National Team, Mishakov and his linemates were average players
- often given the job of checking top players which they did rigorously.
- late in his career was a sub who filled in on the army line or to wake up the "lazy" Spartak line.
- Always in excellent shape and in a good mood
- Never considered a hero by the writers and Tarasov preferred other players
- Exemplified perpetual motion and tireless effort.
- When players complained about training, Tarasov would point to Mishakov as an example of energy and persistence.
- Killed penalties at the summit series

My assessment:

- Equal in skating to Maloney, though his compactness may make him look faster in a Wellwood-sort of way.
- Better defensively than maloney, who was not a shutdown player or PK guy
- Equal to Maloney as an energy/4th line guy
- Equal to Maloney as a character/team guy
- Inferior to Maloney in toughness (because hey, this is Maloney)
- Offensively? Your guess is as good as mine. To get a good idea of where to rank them I'd need to compare Maloney's output to a Canadian of known skill, then do the same with Mishakov and try to extrapolate from there. My gut tells me Maloney had more offensve capability.

He had 181 goals in 400 games (0.45) around the same time that Loktev had 213 in 340 (0.63) although his career started and ended 7 years after Loktev's which is a bit of a boost for him since I believe Russian hockey would have been at a higher average level throughout his career. His international stats pale to Loktev's (50 in 57). Overall I'd say he's about 70% as good as Loktev offensively, and Loktev is a good ATD 4th-liner. Maloney compares favourably to a few ATD 4th-liners but is behind most of them. He's around 80-90% the production level of all the 4th line RWs who played in his time - Rejean Houle, Mario Tremblay, Gary Dornhoefer, but well behind guys like Vaive, Pronovost and Paiement, at least when peak value is considered. I think the first 3 are rather below-average 4th liners and the latter 3 are pretty good. Leaving Maloney at a 50-70% level of a good 4th liner offensively, I guess I have to conclude he's not quite as good as Mishakov offensively, and therefore not quite the better player overall. But I will say that Maloney is better suited to be a 4th liner... by a bit.

There you have it, folks. The most exhaustive comparison of two AAA 4th-line wingers you'll ever see.

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12-24-2009, 10:28 AM
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Just an update on this series:

You will NOT be solicited for your vote.

For fun, Hedberg and I have decided to "simulate" the outcome of this series using NHL 06 for PC. We're going to use a player editor program to create two custom teams and all custom players. Their skills and dimensions will be adjusted to reflect what they were relative to their eras. Obviously a lot of guesswork is involved - for example, an early scoring star must have been a good skater with a good shot. But with the modern guys, we know a lot about them and can do a good job.

Once we've agreed on the player ratings, I will simulate the games (or maybe games 1, 2, 5, and 7) at my place and post the results with mini-summaries.

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01-22-2010, 07:15 PM
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As much as I'd like to see "realistic" results, I'm going to relay these details exactly as they happen. I'll adjust the rules, AI, etc, after each game to get the game looking realistic as the series progresses. Any adjustments would only be made for realism, and not to benefit one team or the other.

Game 1: Brandt center, Regina

The first shift was filled with end to end action and two shots by each team, but no goals. Shortly after, though, Al Dewsbury rushed the puck deep into the Regina end and found Ran McDonald waiting on the right side for a one-timer. 1-0 Toledo. Just a minute and a half later Herb Jordan bettered Dewsbury's efforts with a dazzling rush, feeding Jack McDonald on the left, who also made no mistake. Toledo would not sit back, however, and Ray Whitney took a Dewsbury pass at the goalmouth and tipped it over Brodeur. Regina sent the 4th line out to generate some momentum. they could not score, but Herberts and Maloney showed great chemistry on two rushes. The tired Toledo defense could not handle Regina's top unit the next shift. Pierre Bouchard could only stop Herb Jordan by holding him, and was sent to the box. In the closing seconds of the PP, Jimmy Herberts completed a tic-tac-toe play with Driver and Aucoin, and tied the game. At this point, Shots were 12-4 Regina, yet, Brodeur had not stood tall in net, allowing Toledo to stay in the game. Regina then took the lead on a one-timer from Art Gagne, the beneficiary of Nick Mickoski's strong work along the boards.

Throughout the period, Pete Horeck got under ths skin of Dale tallon. the two jawed at eachother repeatedly, but never dropped the gloves.

Regina took a 4-2 lead when Don Smith sent a one-timer over Nicholson's shoulder after taking a pass from Don Saleski. That's how the period ended. Shuvalov featured prominently with his backchecking, and Fontinato broke up his share of Toledo rushes. Shots were 28-15 Regina.

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01-22-2010, 07:26 PM
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Although Jack Marks' corner work and defensive ability were no doubt appreciated, he did fail to convert two chances that were giftwrapped by Jordan and McDonald. Jordan, in particular, looked dazzling to start the stanza. Jimmy Herberts, buried on the 4th line in Regina's deep lineup, was always dangerous. however, with little help offensively from Drake and Maloney, he remained pointless aside from his PP marker.

Richard Brodeur began to look stronger for Regina, making some key saves throughout the first half of the 2nd period. He foiled a 2-on-1 by intercepting a pass before Ran McDonald could get to it. It took 11 minutes for a team to score in this period, a stark contrast to the 1st. It was Art Gagne, who potted his 2nd of the game, for a 5-2 Regina lead.

Mishakov looked excellent for Toledo, his tireless work along the boards generating many scoring chances for his linemates, but they were unable to convert. It did, however, lead to a Bill Brydge penalty for tripping. Toronto dodged a bullet on the PK when Bill Juzda made an ill-advised clearing attempt across his own goal mouth, through two pairs of skates, one of them belonging to a Toledo player. the PK ended fruitlessly and the period ended shortly after, with Toronto leading 5-2 following a much more subdued frame.

Shots were 18-18 in the period, and now 46-33 for Toronto.

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01-22-2010, 07:41 PM
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Two minutes into the 3rd period, Art Gagne completed the trick, scoring on an impossible angle on a pass from Nick Mickoski, who once again did a yeoman's work along the boards to recover the puck. Toledo answered right back to keep it within three, though, when Bud Poile took a pass from Patrik sundstrom at his own blueline, skated all the way in on his off wing, and beat Brodeur short side. Guevremont was berated on the bench by Brian Kilrea for playing Poile much too passively.

This goal gave Toledo some momentum, and the next shift McDougall and Sheppard were all over Regina. Sheppard had Brodeur down and out, and inexplicably chose to attempt a pass to McDougall. Brodeur stopped this, but when the ensuing Regina rush was broken up, it was Sheppard carrying it back in, and this time McDougall buried his pass, to make it a 6-4 game. Regina was sweating, but not for long, as only 12 seconds off the faceoff, Don Saleski fed Shuvalov in front, and Shuvalov beat Nicholson.

Tempers flared as Pete Horeck and Ran McDonald decided to drop the gloves. After a lot of grappling, Horeck broke free and fed two into McDonald's face. mcDonald replied with more grappling. Horeck gave him two more, and this awoke the animal within, as McDonald threw four straight connecting punches. Some more grappling ensued, and it looked like this one would end without a winner, until McDonald sent Horeck crashing down with a hook.

Temporarily, this energized Toledo, as Ray Whitney beat Brodeur to again make this a two-goal game. But regina answered back with a goal by enforcer Don Maloney, and then Gagne's 4th of the game, again assisted by nick Mickoski. With exactly 7 minutes left, Nick Mickoski finally got into the G colum, tipping a point shot past Marc-Andre Fleury, who had replaced nicholson. It was now 10-5 Regina

Herberts' snakebitten linemates showed they could bury the biscuit too, as Dallas Drake scored on a Dan Maloney pass. Toledo's Grunts returned the favour, wth Larry Patey scoring from Mishakov to make it 11-6, and then Larochelle scored from Patey to make it 11-7. With 5:15 to go in a game like this, the fat lady ain't clearing her throat just yet.

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01-22-2010, 07:46 PM
  #23
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With just a minute to go, Jack Marks added an insurance marker off a rebound, showing that he could get involved in the offense too. Right off the ensuing faceoff, Ron Duguay scored unassisted on a 60-foot slapshot that Brodeur should have had. The ding of the goalpost was heard two more times at each end of the rink before the final buzzer finally sounded. The game ended 12-8 for Regina in a game where shots were 70-58 for Regina. both coaches said in the post-game comments that they would look to tighten up their strategies for game 2 and beyond.

scoring summary:

TOL - McDonald (Duguay, Dewsbury)
REG - Mcdonald (Jordan, Fontinato)
TOL - Whitney (Dewsbury, Duguay)
REG - Herberts (Driver, Aucoin) - PP
REG - Gagne (Mickoski, Smith)
REG - Smith (Saleski)
REG - Gagne (Smith, Driver)
REG - Gagne (Mickoski)
TOL - Poile (Sundstrom, Boesch)
TOL - McDougall (Sheppard)
REG - Shuvalov (Saleski)
TOL - Whitney (Poile, Duguay)
REG - Maloney (Saleski, Brydge)
REG - Gagne (Mickoski)
REG - Mickoski (Juzda, Driver)
REG - Drake (Maloney, Herberts)
TOL - Patey (Siltanen, Mishakov)
TOL - Larochelle (Boesch, Patey)
REG - Marks (Jordan, McDonald)
TOL - Duguay

PP: REG 1/1, TOL 0/1
FO: 17-16 TOL
Hits: 46-30 TOL

Brodeur - W, 50/58
Nicholson - 40/46
Fleury - L, 18/24

Notable +/-: TOL: Sheppard, Reibel, McDougall: +1, Duguay, Whitney -3
REG: Mickoski, Smith +3, Drake, Shuvalov, herberts, Horeck, Maloney, -1

hit leaders: Saleski 4, Whitney 8

3 stars: Gagne (4G), Mickoski (1G, 3A), Driver (3A)


Last edited by seventieslord: 01-22-2010 at 08:01 PM.
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01-22-2010, 08:16 PM
  #24
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game 2: Brandt Center, Regina

Herb Jordan started the game with a dazzling solo rush, complete with dekes and spinoramas, but no dice, as Billy Nicholson, crucified by the Toledo media the night before, was up to the task. Not long after, Toledo opened the scoring when Duguay came all the way up the right side and beat Brodeur with a wrister. Nicholson continued his fine play when he turned aside point-blank slapshots from Jimmy Herberts and Jocelyn Guevremont. Then, he got a lucky break when a Brice Driver shot appeared to trickle past him, but Doug Jarret stopped it from crossing the line.

Pete Horeck, one of only two Regina players held pointless the night before, worked doggedly in the Toledo zone, but the large Toledo defenders wouldn't give an inch.

Midway through the period, Toledo took a 2-0 lead when duguay tipped home an easy one-timer. At this stage, shots were 13-6 for Regina. A strange turn of events saw Lou Fontinato get a breakaway, only to be outhustled by Risto Siltanen. Nicholson continued his strong work in goal, stoning what looked like a sure Art Gagne wraparound goal.

Siltanen was playing a fantastic period. In addition to the Fontinato play, he intercepted a centering pass and nearly scored on a solo rush. He often ventured deep for Toledo, but skated back hard to avoid being caught. Richard Brodeur began to shine as the period went on, stopping three very difficult shots. The period ended 2-0 Toledo, with the shot clock at 20-12 Toronto. So far the coaches had seen a lower scoring game, though not necessarily a tighter match defensively.

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01-22-2010, 08:23 PM
  #25
Hedberg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
The game ended 12-8 for Regina in a game where shots were 70-58 for Regina.
The AAA hockey league is the clearly the most exciting offensive hockey ever played.

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