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ATD 12 Milt Dunnell Cup Final: Tidewater Sharks vs. Detroit Falcons

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Old
12-10-2009, 04:52 PM
  #1
God Bless Canada
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ATD 12 Milt Dunnell Cup Final: Tidewater Sharks vs. Detroit Falcons

TIDEWATER SHARKS

GM: Hedberg
Coach: Arkady Chernyshev

Michel Goulet - Alex Delvecchio (C) - Jaromir Jagr
Mats Naslund - Pave Datsyuk - Rick Tocchet
Bob Gainey (A) - Pit Lepine - Jerry Toppazzini
Venjamin Alexandrov - Alexander Almetov - Konstantin Loktev
Kris Draper - Bill Guerin

Chris Chelios (A) - Marcel Pronovost
Herb Gardiner - Terry Harper
Graham Drinkwater - Moose Goheen
Bobby Rowe

Tony Esposito
Viktor Konovalenko

PP1
Goulet - Delvecchio - Jagr
Chelios - Gardiner

PP2
Naslund - Datsyuk - Tocchet
Drinkwater - Goheen

PK1
Gainey - Datsyuk
Chelios - Pronovost

PK2
Loktev - Almetov
Harper - Gardiner

Florida Hammerheads (MLD)
Robert McDougall - Normie Himes - Haviland Routh
Dolly Swift - Sergei Babinov
Billy Nicholson


VS


DETROIT FALCONS

GM: EagleBelfour
Coach: Herb Brooks
Assistant Coach:Father David Bauer

Woody Dumart - Milt Schmidt (C) - Bobby Bauer
Roy Conacher - Duke Keats (A) - Harry Hyland
Harry P. Watson - Phil Goyette - Bobby Rousseau
Ed Sandford - Buddy O'Connor - Harry Oliver

Bill Quackenbush - Jimmy Thomson (A)
Lionel Conacher (A) - Cyclone Wentworth
Art Duncan - Bucko McDonald

Terry Sawchuk
Mike Karakas

Reggie Fleming (LW/D)
Wally Hergesheimer (RW)

Powerplay:
Woody Dumart - Milt Schmidt - Bobby Bauer
Bill Quackenbush - Lionel Conacher

Roy Conacher - Duke Keats - Harry Hyland
Jimmy Thomson - Bobby Rousseau

Harry Watson - Buddy O'Connor - Harry Oliver
Art Duncan - Cy Wentworth

Penalty Kill:
Milt Schmidt - Woody Dumart
Cy Wentworth - Jimmy Thomson

Phil Goyette - Bobby Rousseau
Bill Quackenbush - Bucko McDonald

Buddy O'Connor - Harry Watson
Art Duncan - Lionel Conacher

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12-10-2009, 04:54 PM
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The Tidewater Sharks won the President's Trophy in the regular season, and will have home ice advantage if a Game 7 is necessary.

Good luck to both teams.

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12-10-2009, 04:59 PM
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This should be a good one.

I'm just going to throw this out there; why not give the final a full writeup? I understand not writing up every series as it bogs down the process and can not be done with so many series, but at the same time I don't want to see the write-up, with all these players coming alive on the page, be removed from the ATD entirely- and some writeups can be absolutely incredible and great and even hillarious to read. I don't see why we can't write-up the most importance series of each ATD, or perhaps even the final three series of each ATD, completely. This all assuming there is someone willing to write one, of course.

Just my two cents.


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12-10-2009, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
This should be a good one.

I'm just going to throw this out there; why not give the final a full writeup? I understand not writing up every series as it bogs down the process and can not be done with so many series, but at the same time I don't want to see the write-up, with all these players coming alive on the page, be removed from the ATD entirely- and some writeups can be absolutely incredible and great and even hillarious to read. I don't see why we can't write-up the most importance series of each ATD, or perhaps even the final three series of each ATD, completely.

Just my two cents.
I'd like to give a full write-up. But at this time of year, it's tough. I have three papers to publish before December 23. And for a lot of guys, this is a busy time of year: friends, family, Christmas parties, post-party hangovers, gift shopping, work, line-ups ... all between now and December 25.

I wanted to give one for the last round. Don't have the time. If someone has the time, and can get it done within 24 hours of the deadline (remember, the first and foremost priority is the guys in the final who want to know how their teams fared), then I'm on board. If they can't get it done in 24, don't bother, because after 24 hours, I will announce the results.

The write-ups in the past were great, but the writers usually took them way too seriously, bogged down the process, and played a key role in the loss of interest in the draft.

Anyways, this probably isn't the best place to discuss it. Keep the focus on the final, and the guys who reached it.

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12-10-2009, 05:29 PM
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Yes! The final we have all been waiting for. On the surface these teams don't look as impressive to me as the ones that got to the last two semifinals, but I have to keep reminding myself that there are 32 teams, and the talent got spread out. These are the two best teams and they belong here.

I have no idea how to vote on this one. Two teams I like A LOT, and two GMs who I really feel deserve to win an ATD. I think that we should reward, along with a good team, research, initiative, and the desire to teach and learn, and these guys both fit the bill, but one has to go home empty-handed.

As for writeups: If someone really wants us to have them, START NOW! You know it's going to at least be 6 games. Start writing, get 6 games done, then get the result from GBC and tweak your writeups as needed. Waiting until the results are final is probably the biggest mistake the writers of drafts past have made. Start now, tweak after.

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12-10-2009, 05:35 PM
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I wanted to give one for the last round. Don't have the time. If someone has the time, and can get it done within 24 hours of the deadline (remember, the first and foremost priority is the guys in the final who want to know how their teams fared), then I'm on board. If they can't get it done in 24, don't bother, because after 24 hours, I will announce the results.
Well if the guys in the final are willing to let it, the deadline could stand to be more lenient.

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12-10-2009, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
I'd like to give a full write-up. But at this time of year, it's tough. I have three papers to publish before December 23. And for a lot of guys, this is a busy time of year: friends, family, Christmas parties, post-party hangovers, gift shopping, work, line-ups ... all between now and December 25.

I wanted to give one for the last round. Don't have the time. If someone has the time, and can get it done within 24 hours of the deadline (remember, the first and foremost priority is the guys in the final who want to know how their teams fared), then I'm on board. If they can't get it done in 24, don't bother, because after 24 hours, I will announce the results.

The write-ups in the past were great, but the writers usually took them way too seriously, bogged down the process, and played a key role in the loss of interest in the draft.

Anyways, this probably isn't the best place to discuss it. Keep the focus on the final, and the guys who reached it.
What day would it be written on? I can probably have it up by 4am PST on the night I'm given the results.

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12-10-2009, 05:59 PM
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Deadline, as of right now, will be 11:59 p.m. EST Sunday night. If an extension is necessary (ie: not enough votes), it will be noon EST Monday.

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12-10-2009, 06:24 PM
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Yes! The final we have all been waiting for. On the surface these teams don't look as impressive to me as the ones that got to the last two semifinals, but I have to keep reminding myself that there are 32 teams, and the talent got spread out. These are the two best teams and they belong here.

I have no idea how to vote on this one. Two teams I like A LOT, and two GMs who I really feel deserve to win an ATD. I think that we should reward, along with a good team, research, initiative, and the desire to teach and learn, and these guys both fit the bill, but one has to go home empty-handed.

As for writeups: If someone really wants us to have them, START NOW! You know it's going to at least be 6 games. Start writing, get 6 games done, then get the result from GBC and tweak your writeups as needed. Waiting until the results are final is probably the biggest mistake the writers of drafts past have made. Start now, tweak after.
The 32 teams is definitely a factor. I gained a real appreciation for Hed's team when writing the review. I think I said "This is a team that works" - the biggest compliment I can hand out.

They have some guys who rate among the best in the draft. Delvecchio's an awesome two-way first line centre. Jagr's skill is undeniable. Datsyuk's not a strong second line C, but Naslund's a good scoring LW, and Tocchet's one of the elite complimentary second line RWs in the draft. Gainey's the best defensive winger ever.

Tidewater's first pairing, from a personnel basis, doesn't scream elite. Not like New Jersey's (Savard-Orr) or Glace Bay's (Lidstrom-Clapper). But it's as well-built as any first pairing in the draft. They're highly skilled, and they're imposing. Tough, aggressive, abrasive, mobile. I thought Tidewater and New Jersey had the best-built first pairings.

My only real concern for Tidewater was Tony O in net. Could a team succeed with a goalie whose only Cup win came when he was a No. 3? And its not like he was the one-man show on the 50s Blackhawks; that Chicago team had the potential to win multiple Cups. In 71, he was the difference. And not in a good way. Would they be the team to beat with Cheevers, Holmes, Thompson, Vezina or Lumley? Maybe. But they might be the team to beat with Tony O.

There aren't many two-way first line centres better than Delvecchio. Schmidt is one of them. Love seeing Milt in the ATD final. Loved seeing him get first star in the last series. I have him in my top 30. An absolutely marvellous two-way, physical centre who can be a game-breaker offensively. If not for the Second World War, Boston probably has a dynasty from 39 to 45, with Schmidt as the cornerstone.

Detroit doesn't have a forward who screams "this guy is the best for his role in the draft." Maybe Roy Conacher for a second line goal-scorer, although it does concern me a little when it took until the last year of the veteran's committee for Conacher to get inducted in the HHOF. (Not saying he doesn't belong, just saying it took longer than you might expect).

The defence is a classic case of the sum being greater than the parts. They don't have a blue-liner who screams "this guy's a legit No. 1 defenceman," even in a 32-team draft. Quackenbush is a top-32 defenceman all-time (to say the least), but, as I said before, I think he's a guy who's better suited to being a No. 2 than a No. 1, because he's not truly exceptional, in any one area, in an ATD context. The only thing that might be exception is his hockey sense and hockey IQ, which are really friggin' important, of course. But you have a guy who is a top 32 in Quackenbush and two perfect No. 2s in Thomson (tough, skilled, two-way guy who was a No. 1 on a dynasty) and Big Train Conacher.

Big edge in goal. Sawchuk: four rings as a No. 1. Esposito: one ring as a No. 3. Granted, Sawchuk was on one of the best two-way teams ever, and Detroit could have possibly won with Tony O in net, no matter how many goals Esposito allowed from centre ice in a deciding game. But the bottom line is goalies want to be judged by wins. There's no player position in the sport in which players are judged by championships more than goal. Bottom line: four Cups for Sawchuk. A No. 3 Cup for Espo.

One thing that is interesting to see is the coaching. When you look at teams that have won it before, the coaches have been: Tommy Ivan, Hap Day, Al Arbour (twice), Dick Irvin and Cecil Hart. Hart's the only one who isn't a gimmie for the top 10. In this draft, we have Arkady Chernyshev, Herb Brooks and Father David Bauer. I believe they have a combined one best-of-seven series win. It's not exactly the coaching match-up we had the first three finals.

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12-10-2009, 07:30 PM
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Tough choice. I think I like Tidewater better overall, but two major things irk me about that team, one being Tony O in net, the other being Jagr as top offensive weapon of the team. Guess I'll base my vote on the debate.

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12-10-2009, 07:45 PM
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in a 32-team draft, some team is going to have Esposito as their starter, and whoever takes Jagr will certainly not have a better forward. Neither should preclude the team from winning.

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12-11-2009, 01:51 AM
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Congrats gentleman on making itto the final

so now lets hear it from the 2 gm's who are the finalist!!


Why is your team so good?Why should your team win?

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12-11-2009, 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
in a 32-team draft, some team is going to have Esposito as their starter, and whoever takes Jagr will certainly not have a better forward. Neither should preclude the team from winning.
Didn't say it does, but in the end, no team ever won with Espo as starter, and no team ever won with Jagr as top player.

But sure, Espo is definitely a starting goalie here, and he's also far from bad. Jagr... I believe he gets drafted too early for a player that is absolutely deficient in everything but offense.

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12-11-2009, 03:31 AM
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I'm a bit drunk so I won't argue on the matchup tonight, but I just wanna say good luck to Hedberg, one of the great GM in the ATD. There's no doubt this one will go the limit!

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12-11-2009, 04:15 AM
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
Deadline, as of right now, will be 11:59 p.m. EST Sunday night. If an extension is necessary (ie: not enough votes), it will be noon EST Monday.
Sunday night I can, Monday I cannot.

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12-11-2009, 07:08 AM
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Didn't say it does, but in the end, no team ever won with Espo as starter, and no team ever won with Jagr as top player.

But sure, Espo is definitely a starting goalie here, and he's also far from bad. Jagr... I believe he gets drafted too early for a player that is absolutely deficient in everything but offense.
LOL

Bash Jagr all you want but he is easily the best forward in the series. As for "deficent" in everything else, thats just ridiculous, but I guess Gretzky or Lemieux or Hull suck too, right?
Jagr is a playoff beast and it is not his fault that he played on pathetic teams in his prime. Noone can win it all single-handedly, not even The Great One.

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12-11-2009, 07:24 AM
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LOL

Bash Jagr all you want but he is easily the best forward in the series. As for "deficent" in everything else, thats just ridiculous, but I guess Gretzky or Lemieux or Hull suck too, right?
Jagr is a playoff beast and it is not his fault that he played on pathetic teams in his prime. Noone can win it all single-handedly, not even The Great One.
What? He spent a significant amount of time on absolutely stacked Pens teams, and never led them anywhere when he was the main man. Playoff beast? Sakic must be a playoff Godzilla then.

Also, Gretzky, Lemieux & Hull had so much more intangibles and mental qualities it doesn't really compare.

Best forward in the series? Sure. But not a man I'd like my team to depend on. (But to be fair, Tidewater also has Chelios, who makes up for Jagr somewhat in my book)

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12-11-2009, 07:48 AM
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What? He spent a significant amount of time on absolutely stacked Pens teams, and never led them anywhere when he was the main man. Playoff beast? Sakic must be a playoff Godzilla then.

Also, Gretzky, Lemieux & Hull had so much more intangibles and mental qualities it doesn't really compare.

Best forward in the series? Sure. But not a man I'd like my team to depend on. (But to be fair, Tidewater also has Chelios, who makes up for Jagr somewhat in my book)
Care to elaborate on the three's supposed great intangibles? They are awesome players, but they are rather one-dimensional.

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12-11-2009, 07:57 AM
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Care to elaborate on the three's supposed great intangibles? They are awesome players, but they are rather one-dimensional.
I was more aiming towards leadership, heart and intelligence, though all three were better defensively too, tho that ain't saying much.

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12-11-2009, 02:22 PM
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What? He spent a significant amount of time on absolutely stacked Pens teams, and never led them anywhere when he was the main man. Playoff beast? Sakic must be a playoff Godzilla then.
Absolutely stacked? Sure, if having Jagr means a team is absolutely stacked. Jagr was by far the biggest reason they were so good, along with Lemieux when he was there.

In Jagr's prime in Pittsburgh, from 1995 to 2001, Pittsburgh was an above average team with Jagr off the ice only twice - in 1996 and 2001, two years when Lemieux was there. In both those years the Penguins made the Conference Finals, but I guess that doesn't count for anything because Jagr wasn't the "main man", just like 1991 and 1992 don't count.

In the years in between their conference final appearances, from 1997 to 2000, the Penguins were mostly Jagr and little else. They had a GF/GA ratio of 0.84 with Jagr off the ice. Jagr scored more than twice as many points as the next Penguin over that period. Hardly an "absolutely stacked" team. It's ridiculous to blame the man who was far and away their best player for the team's failure to win, especially since he maintained his incredible scoring rate in the playoffs over that time. If anything, Jagr performed worse as a second banana in the playoffs than as the main man.

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12-11-2009, 02:37 PM
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Jagr is probably the most unfairly maligned top-50 player of all-time. More than Hasek, more than Dionne, more than Messier, more than Richard, more than Coffey.

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12-11-2009, 02:59 PM
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After the first two seasons (where Pens were insanely stacked and won twice, but Jagr was still only rookie/sophmore, albeit a significant part of the second cup):

1992-93 - Jagr has mediocre playoffs as team loses in second round to Isles in memorable upset. Team was still stacked as hell, but Jagr wasn't the best player on it.

1993-94 - team continues to be stacked. Lemieux misses a ton of time, Jagr leads team in regular season. Jagr shows up in the playoffs, but the team implodes against average Caps team in 1st round.

1994-95 - the Lemieuxless stacked Pens are once again great in regular season. Jagr has excellent playoffs as far as personal stats go (even if overshadowed by Francis), but the Pens barely put up a fight in 2nd round against the eventual Cup champs. Any place where I could find the boxscores for the series? NHL.com doesn't have them.

1995-96 - Pens field an incredible team, dominate regular season with the best offense the league's seen since Oilers' dynasty. Come playoff time, they lose to the Panthers. The blame isn't exactly on Jagr, with Barrasso allowing a horrid series winner and Francis being out injured, but that's still an incredible dissapointment.

1996-97 - Pens play below their capabilities all season, and thus earn themselves a hard draw in playoffs against Philly. Jagr ain't to blame for their unceremonious exit at all.

1997-98 - Pens are back on top of their division in regular season, and lose to mediocre Habs in 1st round. Jagr scores in playoffs again, but it's becoming a pattern - he gets his points, but his team loses.

1998-99 - Jagr leads a weaking squad to 2nd round exit at hands of mediocre Leafs. Scores his points, watches his team lose, as usual.

After that, the Pens went largely to the crapper.

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Jagr is probably the most unfairly maligned top-50 player of all-time. More than Hasek, more than Dionne, more than Messier, more than Richard, more than Coffey.
Really? To me he's the most overrated player in there. Though I'm not sure if I'd even have him in top 50 (never made a list or attempted to). A heartless, brainless point accumulator who lived on talent alone.

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12-11-2009, 03:39 PM
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Any place where I could find the boxscores for the series? NHL.com doesn't have them.
http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/hsppogames.cgi

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12-11-2009, 03:42 PM
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After the first two seasons (where Pens were insanely stacked and won twice, but Jagr was still only rookie/sophmore, albeit a significant part of the second cup):

1992-93 - Jagr has mediocre playoffs as team loses in second round to Isles in memorable upset. Team was still stacked as hell, but Jagr wasn't the best player on it.

1993-94 - team continues to be stacked. Lemieux misses a ton of time, Jagr leads team in regular season. Jagr shows up in the playoffs, but the team implodes against average Caps team in 1st round.

1994-95 - the Lemieuxless stacked Pens are once again great in regular season. Jagr has excellent playoffs as far as personal stats go (even if overshadowed by Francis), but the Pens barely put up a fight in 2nd round against the eventual Cup champs. Any place where I could find the boxscores for the series? NHL.com doesn't have them.

1995-96 - Pens field an incredible team, dominate regular season with the best offense the league's seen since Oilers' dynasty. Come playoff time, they lose to the Panthers. The blame isn't exactly on Jagr, with Barrasso allowing a horrid series winner and Francis being out injured, but that's still an incredible dissapointment.

1996-97 - Pens play below their capabilities all season, and thus earn themselves a hard draw in playoffs against Philly. Jagr ain't to blame for their unceremonious exit at all.

1997-98 - Pens are back on top of their division in regular season, and lose to mediocre Habs in 1st round. Jagr scores in playoffs again, but it's becoming a pattern - he gets his points, but his team loses.

1998-99 - Jagr leads a weaking squad to 2nd round exit at hands of mediocre Leafs. Scores his points, watches his team lose, as usual.

After that, the Pens went largely to the crapper.


Really? To me he's the most overrated player in there. Though I'm not sure if I'd even have him in top 50 (never made a list or attempted to). A heartless, brainless point accumulator who lived on talent alone.
The problem with your analysis is that you are underrating how important Jagr was to the Penguins. By the end of the decade, the Penguins miss the playoffs without him. The reason he wanted out is the team was so decrepit that he was their only chance at victory night in and night out. The reason they even made the second round in 99 is Jagr, and yet he's a bum for not being able to drag his team further?

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12-11-2009, 03:46 PM
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Thanks. He had good start to the series but then got shut down and team managed to score just 3 goals in last 3 games (1A for Jagr). Hm.

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